Cam belt change required?

Toady

Toady

Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Posts
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Location
Pembrokeshire
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57,780
MH
Hymer B704 PL
Exp
Since 2017
I own a Hymer B704 PL 2017 and it has nearly 17K on the clock.

The MH is now 6 years old and it has not had a cam belt change yet.

Fiat state cam belt change at 5 year or 100K miles (or maybe 100K Km)

I have joined Nationwide Flex Plus for the breakdown cover after being covered by Driver Guardian for the last year.

I personally don’t think it is necessary to have the cam belt changed yet due to the low mileage but a check of the T&Cs on breakdown cover changed my mind.

The MH is booked in with Adams Morley for a cam belt change before we catch the ferry in January.
 
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Just got ours back after the cambelt changed (for the third time, we do above average miles). The garage lady said they wouldn't change the water pump unless it needed it (and were reluctant to do it but all was okay). I asked for the old parts, just to see what state the cambelt was in and really there was no sign of wear, cracking or drying out. The tensioner looked a bit scruffy and was maybe the cause of the rubbing noise I asked them to investigate. They agreed overall it probably wasn't necessary but for peace of mind was best done.

Total cost £358.60 which included £180 for labour inc. VAT. I thought that very reasonable although they didn't use a Fiat replacement kit - the invoice says Powergrip - but I'm okay with that.

Millennium MoT Centre, Newburn, Newcastle-upon-Tyne (0191 267 3747) who also did the service and MoT a couple of weeks ago (they couldn't fit it in to do it all at the same time). Happy to recommend.
 
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TerryL said:
Just got ours back after the cambelt changed (for the third time, we do above average miles). The garage lady said they wouldn't change the water pump unless it needed it (and were reluctant to do it but all was okay). I asked for the old parts, just to see what state the cambelt was in and really there was no sign of wear, cracking or drying out. The tensioner looked a bit scruffy and was maybe the cause of the rubbing noise I asked them to investigate. They agreed overall it probably wasn't necessary but for peace of mind was best done.

Total cost £358.60 which included £180 for labour inc. VAT. I thought that very reasonable although they didn't use a Fiat replacement kit - the invoice says Powergrip - but I'm okay with that.

Millennium MoT Centre, Newburn, Newcastle-upon-Tyne (0191 267 3747) who also did the service and MoT a couple of weeks ago (they couldn't fit it in to do it all at the same time). Happy to recommend.
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bloody good price that Terry, always try too use the little garages that have proper mechanics.
been using same garage for 30 years never rips me off even advised on stuff on daughters last car that he didn’t really want to touch (would have been timely so costly for me) and I sorted the issues myself.

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AlunandFelicie said:
Wot he said👍
Van going back in May for annual service .🙂
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Thanks - it was Chelston that quoted already but they said they don't change the water pump "because they've never had one fail". They are going to requote including the pump. I suspect it's going to be a lot more than the £600+ original. It seems that you need 3 kits of parts from Fiat whereas all the aftermarket suppliers bundle the pump with the belt & pulleys. Assuming they refuse to use non-OEM parts I'm wondering if Chelston know the combined cost might tempt punters to go elsewhere so sidestep the pump issue.
 
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Blackadder said:
Thanks - it was Chelston that quoted already but they said they don't change the water pump "because they've never had one fail". They are going to requote including the pump. I suspect it's going to be a lot more than the £600+ original. It seems that you need 3 kits of parts from Fiat whereas all the aftermarket suppliers bundle the pump with the belt & pulleys. Assuming they refuse to use non-OEM parts I'm wondering if Chelston know the combined cost might tempt punters to go elsewhere so sidestep the pump issue.
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Five years ago, when I had my first belt change by a Fiat Professional company to my, new to me 2007 X250 Ducato,
as a qualified ex heavy diesel mechanic, I wanted them to change the belt AND water pump as it looked to be original.

The mechanic said that Fiat states that the Water pump is designed to last the 'life of the engine' and not to change it UNLESS there is an obvious problem because, disturbing the joint between the pump and engine, might cause joint leakage.

Because of my qualifications, I was allowed to assist (this was just before COVID and have since stopped me from entering the workshop area) and saw no reason to change an, already 13yr old pump.

If you want to spend more money and take that risk, that's up to you but I will not be changing mine for the foreseeable future.
 
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Blackadder said:
Thanks - it was Chelston that quoted already but they said they don't change the water pump "because they've never had one fail". They are going to requote including the pump. I suspect it's going to be a lot more than the £600+ original. It seems that you need 3 kits of parts from Fiat whereas all the aftermarket suppliers bundle the pump with the belt & pulleys. Assuming they refuse to use non-OEM parts I'm wondering if Chelston know the combined cost might tempt punters to go elsewhere so sidestep the pump issue.
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That’s the thing with the pump Fiat say not to change it unless showing signs of wear/damage yet the belt&bracers gang on here still pay to have it done even when told changing it could cause MORE problems.
I think there are those who just like spending money come what may.
 
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L' Hobo said:
The mechanic said that Fiat states that the Water pump is designed to last the 'life of the engine' and not to change it
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AlunandFelicie said:
That’s the thing with the pump Fiat say not to change it unless showing signs of wear/damage yet the belt&bracers gang on here still pay to have it done even when told changing it could cause MORE problems.
I think there are those who just like spending money come what may.
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Can you really take the word of a mechanic as gospel? Is he able to look at the specification of the bearings and seals and predict how long they will last when exposed to a mixture of neglect and anti-freeze? Actually, not even the best engineers can do that, let alone Fiat's. I don't suppose that Fiat designed the Conformatic gearbox to break down but, judging from this forum, they do. The O-rings on the Challenger Space Shuttle were the correct specification and had worked previously but they failed anyway as did the relay on Apollo 13. Despite the best intentions anything mechanical or electrical can go wrong at any time so any decision on replacement is a risk assessment. Some people are more risk averse than others and are willing to spend appropriately. That's no reason to criticise them - it might just be them that drives past whilst your van is being dragged onto a low-loader somewhere in the Auvergne!
As for replacement causing more problems, do me a favour. Any half competent mechanic should be able to fit a water pump without causing leaks. It was easy enough back when paper gaskets and red Hermetite were our only aids but with modern sealants a trained monkey should be able to do it.

It also begs the question, why is it that all the aftermarket belt kits (and so far I've looked at about 10) include the water pump? Fiat seem to be the only pople that don't. Looking at the cost of the kits it's not like they are artificially boosting profit.

I've now had a quote (including the water pump) from a workshop that does all the mechanical work for a motorhome vendor. It comes to £520 inc VAT and they use INA kits, not some cheap junk from China. So, do I pay £600 just for a belt or a bit less and get a new pump included? Hmmmm.
 
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Blackadder said:
Can you really take the word of a mechanic as gospel? Is he able to look at the specification of the bearings and seals and predict how long they will last when exposed to a mixture of neglect and anti-freeze? Actually, not even the best engineers can do that, let alone Fiat's. I don't suppose that Fiat designed the Conformatic gearbox to break down but, judging from this forum, they do. The O-rings on the Challenger Space Shuttle were the correct specification and had worked previously but they failed anyway as did the relay on Apollo 13. Despite the best intentions anything mechanical or electrical can go wrong at any time so any decision on replacement is a risk assessment. Some people are more risk averse than others and are willing to spend appropriately. That's no reason to criticise them - it might just be them that drives past whilst your van is being dragged onto a low-loader somewhere in the Auvergne!
As for replacement causing more problems, do me a favour. Any half competent mechanic should be able to fit a water pump without causing leaks. It was easy enough back when paper gaskets and red Hermetite were our only aids but with modern sealants a trained monkey should be able to do it.

It also begs the question, why is it that all the aftermarket belt kits (and so far I've looked at about 10) include the water pump? Fiat seem to be the only pople that don't. Looking at the cost of the kits it's not like they are artificially boosting profit.

I've now had a quote (including the water pump) from a workshop that does all the mechanical work for a motorhome vendor. It comes to £520 inc VAT and they use INA kits, not some cheap junk from China. So, do I pay £600 just for a belt or a bit less and get a new pump included? Hmmmm.
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Strange, I have just had a INA kit fitted, and it didn't include a water pump?
It's good that we all have choice!

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They sell all the individual parts under seperate part numbers but the kit part number includes the belt, both pulleys and the water pump.
 
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L' Hobo said:
Strange, I have just had a INA kit fitted, and it didn't include a water pump?
It's good that we all have choice!
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Not all INA kit's come with a pump, although my choice is alway's INA because of the pump included. I've had 100's fitted over the last 20 year's in the motor trade, and most around the £80-£100 mark so very sensibly priced with the quality by Schaeffler.
If the pump is not driven off the timing belt, my opinion would be only replace it if you feel it's necessary, make your own mind up then stick to it !
 
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Blackadder said:
They sell all the individual parts under seperate part numbers but the kit part number includes the belt, both pulleys and the water pump.
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Try INA 530 0232 10 Timing belt
KIT and a number of others.
They all come with NO water pump! 🤔
 
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Blackadder said:
The O-rings on the Challenger Space Shuttle were the correct specification and had worked previously but they failed anyway
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They failed because NASA insisted on launching outsite the specifications of Morton Thiokol the manufacturers of the o ring. This is classic case used when discussing PFMEAs Process Failure Mode Effect Analysis. A methodology used in the railway and space industrys ( not exclusively) to save lives. Comformatic failures produce much lower scores with real loses being failures outside of warrenty due to incorrect maintenance schedules/ advice. From Fiats perspective problem no longer exists, new auto gearbox. The automotive industry is probably more on the ball with finely tuned systems from warrenty feeding back into thier PFMEA.
A real World example oft quoted on the fiat forum by the fleet manager of a large lease hire company, " we only ever replaced one water pump in all the cam belt changes we did on ducatos (engine allready out) in over 10 yrs. They were sold on after 300,000 miles".
As with everything on this site, your money your decision. My moneys on the most influencial part in failure is the tensioner system/ effective age of belt.
 
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Given that there has been talk of different suppliers of cambelts, apart from Mopar (Fiat) any recommendations on alternative quality suppliers? This is for a 2015 Fiat Ducato.

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Happy to report that our belt and water pump have finally been changed and the bill came to £429.19.
Had it done at Middletons Motor Care at Hewish, near Weston-super-mare - that's a lot closer to us than Chelston as well as being a whole lot cheaper. They do the mechanical work for at least one of the local motorhome vendors so presumably are very familiar with motorhomes.
Excellent service and they seem to be very professional - dropped the van off at 08.30 and it was ready for pick-up at 12.30. Assuming the new belt doesn't snap 🤞then I can't think of a reason not to use them again in the future.
 
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Blackadder said:
Happy to report that our belt and water pump have finally been changed and the bill came to £429.19.
Had it done at Middletons Motor Care at Hewish, near Weston-super-mare - that's a lot closer to us than Chelston as well as being a whole lot cheaper. They do the mechanical work for at least one of the local motorhome vendors so presumably are very familiar with motorhomes.
Excellent service and they seem to be very professional - dropped the van off at 08.30 and it was ready for pick-up at 12.30. Assuming the new belt doesn't snap 🤞then I can't think of a reason not to use them again in the future.
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Remind me what vehicle you have?
4hrs seems very quick for Cambelt and water pump? 🤔
 
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As you can see from my avatar, the base is a Ducati with the 2.3 130 engine. Not an A-class so access is relatively easy. I think someone earlier in this thread quoted a similar price which suggests the same number of hours.
 
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Blackadder said:
As you can see from my avatar, the base is a Ducati with the 2.3 130 engine. Not an A-class so access is relatively easy. I think someone earlier in this thread quoted a similar price which suggests the same number of hours.
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Had mine done recently 08 plate 41k miles guy who did it showed it to me, he told me there was probably another 20k on it and informed me it's a commercial engine designed to do upto 100k

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Today i had a quote from my local Fiat dealer to change the Cam belt on my 2018 Fiat Ducato. £973 to change the cambelt and if I wanted the water pump changing the total cost would be £1500!
 
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KevinTuplin said:
Today i had a quote from my local Fiat dealer to change the Cam belt on my 2018 Fiat Ducato. £973 to change the cambelt and if I wanted the water pump changing the total cost would be £1500!
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Our local Fiat charges £850, the water pump is supposed to last the life of the engine and apparently they are a pig to change.
 
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I've never understood the use of a Cam belt on what would ordinarily be a service vehicle racking up thousands of miles very quickly. There is zero reason why such vehicles cannot have chain cams. My Honda Civic had a chain cam as does my wife's car now, so it's not a technical limitation, just a constant ball ache and big money to have replaced especially every 4 or 5 years on low mileage vehicles like MH's.
 
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FrankNicklin said:
I've never understood the use of a Cam belt on what would ordinarily be a service vehicle racking up thousands of miles very quickly. There is zero reason why such vehicles cannot have chain cams. My Honda Civic had a chain cam as does my wife's car now, so it's not a technical limitation, just a constant ball ache and big money to have replaced especially every 4 or 5 years on low mileage vehicles like MH's.
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Yes, it's mainly because it's cheaper. But belts are also quieter and more efficient. Plenty of engines have issues with timing chain wear, stretch, the tensioners failing and guides wearing out. It's a lot more involved to deal with chain issues.
 
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KevinTuplin said:
Today i had a quote from my local Fiat dealer to change the Cam belt on my 2018 Fiat Ducato. £973 to change the cambelt and if I wanted the water pump changing the total cost would be £1500!
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Try Chelston motorhomes ,£600 odd no need for a water pump change and that on an A class.

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Clive Mott said:
Someone mentioned a Toyota HiLux. This has the same 3 litre D4D engine as the Landcruiser. A Bullet Proof engine by all accounts. I bought a new Landcruiser, every service up to warranty done by the Toyota garage. Every service after that done by me. 74000 mikes knock knock. KNOCK. KNOCK. 10 years old but still a beautiful car. Toyota did not want to know unless I paid for the strip down and inspection. Bottom line a big end, will never know why. car was, scrapped. Cam chain was fine though. Years before that had a cam belt go on a Bedford CF 2.3 litre engine.. Good design as valves and piston do not meet. Much later a cam belt tensioner failure on a Vauxhall Astra diesel. Another write off.
Even Hyundai and Kia use chains. The posh knobs have a gear train. Thats aftermarket for a Mk 1 Discovery or a Ferrari.
CHANGE THE BLOODY BELT AND ALL THE ASSOCIATED BITS. The alternative is unpaletable.

PS. Our Hymer is Sprinter based, a chain.
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Having been a CF owner for ma ny years and now upgraded to 2016 van if for any reason i had to take the timing cover off the old 2.3 engine I would change the belt for what it cost. At the moment I use Salmons at Weeley in Essex Fiat professional and find their rates competitive. £600 cam belt / waterpump change at 6 years old in 2022.
 
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Get it done! Easiest get out ever for any mechanical issues!
 
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Guigsy said:
Yes, it's mainly because it's cheaper. But belts are also quieter and more efficient.
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And quite importantly a belt is lighter. While chains are less likely to snap, they are not without problems especially if not lubricated properly.
 
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