Cam belt - a vehicle's Achilles heel?

[Jo May]

Took our camper in today for a cam belt. It's 5 years old and the van has done 'only' 16,000 miles.
It'll cost £600 - 700.
What a horrible, poxy, inadequate, weak link this thing is in a complex vehicle, one that, touch wood has run fine to date.
Of course, £600 would be 'cheap' if it did happen to snap. But it's scant consolation for a piece of kit that is basically not up to the job. I know they have chains now - are these changed periodically?
But whatever, the majority are rubber and integral to the just about every vehicle. You'd think that by now they'd have come up with a better system than something that needs to be changed after so little mileage?

I ponder this conundrum, and resultant hit to the wallet, on my 3-mile walk home having dropped the van off. It's a walk I normally thoroughly enjoy along the canal towpath. But my mood is rather dark, summed up when my tracky bottoms are muddied by two passing dogs that jump up - 'he's only playing', said one owner, 'sorry, he's just learning,' said the other. Learning?!
To put the tin lid on it, as it were, I got soiled by a passing duck as it crapped on my anorak!

Ruddy cam belts.

 

[pelican]

The crankshaft drives the camshaft via a timing chain.

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Yes realised after I posted and wondered how long before response/ correction!
But in the normal course of use probably not regarded as a service part.

 

[Two on Tour]

My 1968 Bedford dormobile

Also does 95mph since the gearbox was changed.

The one I had was 1958, she chugged along at about 45 mph.

 

[pelican]

I think you will find if it’s a Bedford CA it has a chain or if the later CF it’s a timing belt,

Yes CA

 

[pelican]

The one I had was 1958, she chugged along at about 45 mph.

View attachment 988255

Did find the tent more comfortable to sleep in?

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[ivorantony]

And as a young apprentice I really loved removing the 28 Rusted 7/16 nuts and bolts on the CA to get the front off to remove the engine, happy days

 

[bigwood]

During my time doing breakdowns I was called to an ex BT viva van with an oil leak that belong to a farmer. The timing chain had worn through the cover. The owner did say it had been a bit noisy for a while but it still ran ok so he kept running it.
I doubt a cam belt lasting that long.

 

[Sue and Rick]

Why does it need all that for the auxiliary belt snapping?

To put the bill up.

 

[Sue and Rick]

Having seen the results of a timing belt failing on one of the first 1980s Escorts fitted with one, I'd rather not take the risk, and just accept changing periodically is part of vehicle maintenance. Even the chain types will eventually wear, but belts are probably much more vulnerable especially for engines that don't run for some time so the belt is stuck in one position. We do of course have the improved efficiency of engines with belts, compared to the pre cambelt systems of the 1950s.

But the wet belt system of the Ford does appear to be a real issue. Cost of replacement is much higher due to the special tooling needed, so many garages simply cannot do it and those that do have to charge accordingly.

Our neighbour just paid about £1600 for a wet belt change on his ford engined peugeot 3008
Belt, sump and gasket, oil pick up pipe and oil and filter change. All in the name of progress.

 

[Two on Tour]

Did find the tent more comfortable to sleep in?

I owned it in my late teens for lads weekends away, and would have been too pissed to have cared where I slept to be honest.

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[Diabalo]

It's a right old palaver changing a wet belt on a PSA Peugeot engine. No wonder it's so expensive.

 

[CazPaul]

It's a right old palaver changing a wet belt on a PSA Peugeot engine. No wonder it's so expensive.

Wow whoever designed that system needs a good dose of medication and a fortnight on a desert island.
How complicated can you totally unnecessarily make things?

How is that progress?

 

[Guigsy]

Wow whoever designed that system needs a good dose of medication and a fortnight on a desert island.
How complicated can you totally unnecessarily make things?

How is that progress?

From a car company perspective, why is it more complex? It's the same as a standard belt. Possibly even with less parts because it doesn't need additional covers. Their cars are quieter and more efficient. The Ford Ecoboost 1.0 won awards several years running. How to deal with the replacement 10 years after they've sold it, it doesn't factor into their designs. And many cars don't make it to that age for many other reasons. So why would they?

 

[tonyidle]

My 1968 Bedford dormobile doesn't have a belt or a chain. The crankshaft drives the camshaft which pushes the push rods that rock the rockers that opens the valves, simple innit.
Also does 95mph since the gearbox was changed.

Much the same as every other vehicle then. So how does your crankshaft drive the camshaft?

 

[CazPaul]

From a car company perspective, why is it more complex? It's the same as a standard belt. Possibly even with less parts because it doesn't need additional covers. Their cars are quieter and more efficient. The Ford Ecoboost 1.0 won awards several years running. How to deal with the replacement 10 years after they've sold it, it doesn't factor into their designs. And many cars don't make it to that age for many other reasons. So why would they?

The mechanic I use has been in the business for 55 years and he says they are a stupid costly idea, that will do for me. He also says the same about the Comfortmatic gearbox too. Complicated trash he said.

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[pelican]

Much the same as every other vehicle then. So how does your crankshaft drive the camshaft?

See post 91.
My lawn mower doesn't have a cambelt or chain but does have valves.

 

[Landy Andy]

See post 91.
My lawn mower doesn't have a cambelt or chain but does have valves.

So does this mower. But it doesn’t run, and is cost more the a cambelt.

 

[Guigsy]

The mechanic I use has been in the business for 55 years and he says they are a stupid costly idea, that will do for me. He also says the same about the Comfortmatic gearbox too. Complicated trash he said.

Stupidly complicated for who? It's probably slightly easier to manufacture as there's no need for the external belt covers. It's all just behind the timing cover, just like a timing chain. But you don't need guides, just pulleys.

Comfortmatic is mechanically almost identical to the manual. Just it just has 3 servos and some extra sensors. It exists because it was simple for Fiat to create.

 

[tonyidle]

See post 91.
My lawn mower doesn't have a cambelt or chain but does have valves.

It does have a gear drive though.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Belts are also a lot lighter and quieter. Not saying that overrides the disadvantages.

You omitted to mention that timing belt changes are a major source of extra income for workshops. The worst ones I owned being the V6 Vauxhall cars that needed a new timing belt every 4 years or 40,000 miles whichever came first. That's a lot of new timing belts over the life of a car designed for tens of thousands of miles a year of business use.

My view is that timing belts should only be permitted for non-interference engines. Wet belts banned full stop. Otherwise timing chains should be mandatory.

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[SpeedyDux]

I think you will find it's only lucky if it poops on your head.

I reckon the pesky birds do that on purpose!

 

[pelican]

It does have a gear drive though.

Which makes it interesting adjusting the valve clearance.

 

[SpeedyDux]

From a car company perspective, why is it more complex? It's the same as a standard belt. Possibly even with less parts because it doesn't need additional covers. Their cars are quieter and more efficient. The Ford Ecoboost 1.0 won awards several years running. How to deal with the replacement 10 years after they've sold it, it doesn't factor into their designs. And many cars don't make it to that age for many other reasons. So why would they?

It is waaay more complex, even for this tiddly 3 cylinder 1.2 PSA engine. How on earth can that possibly be cheaper to manufacture than a chain for valve timing. There are so many obvious design complications - lots of extra filters needed to try to avoid bits of old cambelt buggering up the rest of the engine. It offends the KISS principle that should be tattooed on all engine designers. Look at the original BMC A-Series pushrod engines, and weep. So simple. So easy to fix.

My nephew has a 3008. He probably leases it, and I expect will get a newer Peugeot before the wet cambelt needs replacement (or destroys the engine). As for the next owner, a big expensive surprise is in store. Out of warranty too. Possibly one strong argument for buying the e-3008 if you want to own it for more than a few years. A much simpler drivetrain that hopefully will not self-destruct after 50k miles.

Honda mistakenly went down the wet cambelt route with the 1 L engine in some Civics. Very damaging to the company reputation on the forums after some wet cambelts snapped. All other Honda cars seem to have reliable chain driven camshafts, which is a Good Thing for owners.

Q - how does that 3008's ridiculously complicated and expensive wet cambelt time bomb affect the car's depreciation?

 

[Dazzola]

Not had a car or van with a cambelt for 20yrs, even if I liked a car, if it's belt I'll look elsewhere.
All my BMWs, wife's CRVs etc have been chain, the kia soul she has now is chain too.
Belts are used mainly for cost and ease of assembly at the factory, and maybe noise testing has an influence.
Chains are definitely safer, all Japanese motorbikes are chain driven, safe at high rpm.

 

[dunnah01]

Not had a car or van with a cambelt for 20yrs, even if I liked a car, if it's belt I'll look elsewhere.
All my BMWs, wife's CRVs etc have been chain, the kia soul she has now is chain too.
Belts are used mainly for cost and ease of assembly at the factory, and maybe noise testing has an influence.
Chains are definitely safer, all Japanese motorbikes are chain driven, safe at high rpm.

BMW didn't cover themselves in glory with the cam chains on the N series engines

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[tonyidle]

Which makes it interesting adjusting the valve clearance.

The last Briggs & Stratton I was inside had a nylon camshaft.......

 

[Mleabon]

apparently its good luck if a bird poos on your car but im not sure if that works for anoraks aswel

A bird shat on my windscreen once....I didn't ask her out again...

 

[Mleabon]

True enough, but at least a chain gives warning rattles. During 20 years in the trade I never heard of a chain breaking.

My dad's Vauxhall Viva chain broke. However probably didn't know what to listen for back then.

 

[Spriddler]

My dad's Vauxhall Viva chain broke. However probably didn't know what to listen for back then.

At least back then it wouldn't have caused any damage to the side valve engine.

 

[pelican]

The last Briggs & Stratton I was inside had a nylon camshaft.......

Yes have seen that and was quite surprised.

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[Mleabon]

At least back then it wouldn't have caused any damage to the side valve engine.

No. I remember fixing it out on the road when it was -10c....