Brand new Fiat 180 hp euro 6 engine completely failed after 1hour.

[Ceetee]

We recently picked up our brand new Carthago Chic C-line A class motorhome from the agent, driving it for the first time my wife and I both commented how quiet the engine was and how smooth the 9 speed automatic gearchange was. After about 1 hour of driving on the M5 the engine suddenly made a fairly loud pop, clouds of steam streamed out of the back, I thought at first that I had got a puncture and it was smoke.
We then spent hours waiting for emergency assistance. The motorhome was taken back to the agent and we are told that it needs a new engine. I can't get any information from the agent as to what was the original problem, they have told me various contradictory reasons for the failure. It is now two months since I last saw my motorhome.
My concern now is, is the latest Fiat engine 180hp up to the job? or are they trying to get too much out of this engine?
My previous motorhome was a Swift Kontiki 649 which had a 3 ltr fiat engine and never had a problem with it.
I understand that the 180 hp version of this engine has a stronger steel crank shaft and beefed up pistons.
Has anyone got one of these engines in their motorhome without problems?

 

[Guigsy]

There are 1.0 litre 3 cylinder petrol engines sold with 150bhp. VW use a 2.0 diesel in their +3.5t vans and get 205bhp out of it. Getting 180bhp out of a 2.2 litre is not that much of an ask these days. Even if you question its longevity, it shouldn't pop straight out of the factory gate due to the stress.

 

[Jamesh]

There are 1.0 litre 3 cylinder petrol engines sold with 150bhp. VW use a 2.0 diesel in their +3.5t vans and get 205bhp out of it. Getting 180bhp out of a 2.2 litre is not that much of an ask these days. Even if you question its longevity, it shouldn't pop straight out of the factory gate due to the stress.

Esp when utility contractors use them to tow 3.5t so 7t gtw.

A 3.5-4t motorhome should be child's play!

 

[Tio64]

I am sure you will be correct.

I used Mercedes as a typical leading dealership simply as an example.
The real point is that as motorhome buyers we are generally treated poorly.

Fair enough, and I would agree with that, from my limited experience main agent motorhome dealerships are not like main agent car dealerships. Despite the high prices, I guess there isn't enough turnover to warrant the building of those glass palaces that the car dealerships have.

 

[Camdoon]

Not true of all modern vehicles, my 2021 BMW motorcycle had a running period of 600miles, gradually increasing revs and varying speeds, not maintaining constant speeds or labouring the engine in high gears.
The above should apply to any brand new vehicle particularly with complex turbos thrown into the mix.
I never seen running in as ‘not recommended’, not necessary maybe.
Warming the engine before driving off is indeed daft but I never mentioned that did I?

I worked for a company employed by BMW and used to take new cars off the dockyard at Southampton with 5 miles on the clock and told to drive 1000 miles. These would subsequently be lent to journalists etc. No concept of running in and there would have been if BMW had required it.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Paul and Val]

.... not quite. There is still a significant ongoing injector problem with new Ford engines in motorhomes.

Nonsense.
Transits spend their lives being thrashed up and down motorways fully laden and are far more numerous than FIAT vans. There have been some injector failures but this is easy to fix, not a case of engine failure. In any case no engine is completely free from any problems but I have never heard of a Transit engine failing and needing complete replacement. Now that is a problem.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Nonsense.
Transits spend their lives being thrashed up and down motorways fully laden and are far more numerous than FIAT vans. There have been some injector failures but this is easy to fix, not a case of engine failure. In any case no engine is completely free from any problems but I have never heard of a Transit engine failing and needing complete replacement. Now that is a problem.

Maybe take a look on Transit Custom Owners Group there are plenty on there gone bang, and I like Transits

 

[Hettie's Crew]

I worked for a company employed by BMW and used to take new cars off the dockyard at Southampton with 5 miles on the clock and told to drive 1000 miles. These would subsequently be lent to journalists etc. No concept of running in and there would have been if BMW had required it.

Fully documented in the manual, explained by the dealer and even the first service is called the ‘running in check’
As said, this is motorcycle not car.

 

[Coolcats]

Modern oils and more accurate engineering and better bearings etc mean no bedding in, although it can help giving a little mechanical sympathy when new (don't thrash it just yet . The failure that happens in a new engine is either material failure or the robot did not tighten a nut to a correct torque and something has come loose. It could also be a stray piece of metal lodged in the intake somewhere dislodged and Jammed something.

Just to note even a high tech F1 engine costing £m's with rare materials and built in clinically clean environments occasionally go pop.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Modern oils and more accurate engineering and better bearings etc mean no bedding in, although it can help giving a little mechanical sympathy when new (don't thrash it just yet . The failure that happens in a new engine is either material failure or the robot did not tighten a nut to a correct torque and something has come loose. It could also be a stray piece of metal lodged in the intake somewhere dislodged and Jammed something.

Just to note even a high tech F1 engine costing £m's with rare materials and built in clinically clean environments occasionally go pop.

A lot of people do not realise oil only works at its full potential once upto operating temperature.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[tonyidle]

We had a similar situation with our first new Motorhome in 2016, it was a gearbox and steering rack issue and not an engine failure on this occasion
We were initially told no Uk stock available and ours would have to be repaired, the repair was not successful and
a Very long story short, I called all UK dealers and the manufacturer, and found an almost identical replacement at another dealership in the Uk and they arranged for us to have the replacement.
I know stock is very limited and this still may not be possible, however…..
My concern especially with an A class is that they are more difficult to work on for normal servicing and general maintenance as often discussed on this and other forums, including access for cam belt changing etc, the engine was fitted into the chassis prior to it going to the converters, so now after the Motorhome has been added to the chassis? Surely trying to fit a new engine will be quite a task, and will only be as good as the mechanic who fits it who will not be at a purpose built assembly line, fitting everything in the order it was meant to be at the Fiat factory?
Also depending on the failure which has not been communicated yet, debris from the failure could still be in the oil cooler, oil feed pipes and turbo’s etc, that will be refitted back onto the replacement engine Fiat supply, that debris can cause additional issues, which I have experienced first hand with a different manufacturer.
Happily we formed a good relationship with the initial supplying dealer, they came through with a replacement vehicle for us, and we have had 3 new Motorhomes from them to date, and feel they have our best interest when things go wrong, which let’s face it, they do.
The issues are with Fiat and not the dealers, we have found everyone behaves well when things are going well, and not always the case when they do not, but hopefully your supplying dealer will look after you well
Best wishes going forward

It's no more difficult than if it was a panel van and isn't particularly time-consuming. The engine is removed and refitted from below the vehicle.

 

[Old Gibber]

Nonsense.
Transits spend their lives being thrashed up and down motorways fully laden and are far more numerous than FIAT vans. There have been some injector failures but this is easy to fix, not a case of engine failure. In any case no engine is completely free from any problems but I have never heard of a Transit engine failing and needing complete replacement. Now that is a problem.

Far from nonsense. I know of more than one Transit based motorhome that needed a new engine. One was due to the fact that the injectors were stuck in due to rust (another Transit issue), another failed in Spain, I don't know what the cause of that one was, the guy was on the same campsite as me in Spain in a vehicle less than 3 years old.

The injector problem is far from minor, on one make-specific forum, there have been numerous reporting injector problems, sometimes more than once on new vehicles, indeed they failed on my Ford. As for an easy fix, when it means your vehicle is backloaded and your holiday ruined it is still a big problem. The injector problem is compounded by water running down the windscreen, past the scuttle and into the top of the engine. It appears that Ford still don't have the answer as to why the injectors are failing mostly with motorhomes.

 

[gus-lopez]

One was due to the fact that the injectors were stuck in due to rust (another Transit issue),

Water running down under the scuttle.

The injector problem is compounded by water running down the windscreen, past the scuttle and into the top of the engine.

& is a simple fix due to it being the second set of wiper motor mounting holes for LHD/RHDrive depending on country.. On lhd ones the spare set of holes allows water in to No:1 injector surround. I plopped both mine up with silicon & stopped it. It was only by chance I noticed it as having done the injector seals I was checking them daily & unusally we had a period of rain here. Once I had noticed it I checked each tim to find it appeared after the rain . A good ferret around then showed it was the empty mounting holes.

 

[Camdoon]

Fully documented in the manual, explained by the dealer and even the first service is called the ‘running in check’
As said, this is motorcycle not car.

"The above should apply to any brand new vehicle" no it shouldn't.

 

[Hettie's Crew]

"The above should apply to any brand new vehicle" no it shouldn't.

Well, all I’m going to say is “yes it should”and then we get into a pointless back and forth. So best to just not continue any further and you believe what you believe and I’ll do the same.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Camdoon]

Well, all I’m going to say is “yes it should”and then we get into a pointless back and forth. So best to just not continue any further and you believe what you believe and I’ll do the same.

Sorry I worked for the company. You are taking the example of high revving motorbikes and saying it should apply to diesel engines.

 

[Just smiffy]

Anyone tried to pm him ? Then he will get an email saying his got a message on here…

 

[Jake Royd]

A lot of you IMHO are confusing design and development with what the industry calls a technique error.
The OP's failure is nothing to do with power or torque or running in etc. If it was failures would be numerous.
A technique error is unusually an assembly error or an omission like oil or coolant.
Or a manufacturing error in one of the sub components.
When any large volume of things are made they always exhibit failures with respect to time in a 'bathtub curve'if time is on the horizontal axis and failures on the vertical axis then , sadly , there will be early life failures like the OP's.
Then there is a period , the bottom of the bath , where failures are few.
Then at the other end of the 'bath' you will get 'wear out' where components and systems approach their design lives or duty cycles.
This applies to all manufactured items and systems.

Incidentally this is why second year warranties on white goods etc. are very profitable for the company's involved because you are bumping along the bottom of the bath timewise where failures are rare.

 

[jopparocks]

A lot of you IMHO are confusing design and development with what the industry calls a technique error.
The OP's failure is nothing to do with power or torque or running in etc. If it was failures would be numerous.
A technique error is unusually an assembly error or an omission like oil or coolant.
Or a manufacturing error in one of the sub components.
When any large volume of things are made they always exhibit failures with respect to time in a 'bathtub curve'if time is on the horizontal axis and failures on the vertical axis then , sadly , there will be early life failures like the OP's.
Then there is a period , the bottom of the bath , where failures are few.
Then at the other end of the 'bath' you will get 'wear out' where components and systems approach their design lives or duty cycles.
This applies to all manufactured items and systems.

Incidentally this is why second year warranties on white goods etc. are very profitable for the company's involved because you are bumping along the bottom of the bath timewise where failures are rare.

Jake that was very interesting - thanks.

 

[Coolcats]

A lot of you IMHO are confusing design and development with what the industry calls a technique error.
The OP's failure is nothing to do with power or torque or running in etc. If it was failures would be numerous.
A technique error is unusually an assembly error or an omission like oil or coolant.
Or a manufacturing error in one of the sub components.
When any large volume of things are made they always exhibit failures with respect to time in a 'bathtub curve'if time is on the horizontal axis and failures on the vertical axis then , sadly , there will be early life failures like the OP's.
Then there is a period , the bottom of the bath , where failures are few.
Then at the other end of the 'bath' you will get 'wear out' where components and systems approach their design lives or duty cycles.
This applies to all manufactured items and systems.

Incidentally this is why second year warranties on white goods etc. are very profitable for the company's involved because you are bumping along the bottom of the bath timewise where failures are rare.

The good news is, if like myself you have to make a warranty claim in the extended warranty period (Year 4 in my case) the cost of the claim is exceeding what I paid upfront.........happy days

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Guigsy]

I've worked at a vehicle manufacturer. Some of the fixings on a vehicle are done up with robots. The majority were done with a human, but the tool or gun they are using will be powered and programmed to go to a specific torque for each bolt. It's very reliable, but occasionally the human or robot will have issues and it'll either be rectified on the line, or it'll go to the end of the line with a recorded issue for rectification. Also, if there's a parts shortage or the wrong part appears at the lineside, the vehicle will likely go to a rectification area.

Either way, a small percentage of parts end up being fitted or re-fitted by hand. The engineers are competent and do use torque wrenches, but they also aren't 100% reliable. For safety critical stuff like seatbelt anchor bolts, there's double checks, but they don't re-check everything. So there's a small chance that a fixing in an engine hasn't been done up properly and it's caused a failure after a short period of time. The same could apply to hose clamps. Or it might just have been a sub-standard part.

Like Jake Royd said, there's a bathtub failure curve. And it's manufacturing defects that tend to show up very early on.

 

[Yorick]

I've never blown a motor in an hour, but did bugger one in 24 hours.

Bought a ZX6R (Kawasaki 600) in 2000. The shop was by work so picked it up 5:00 Friday and took it for a ride. Was disappointed that the motor was a bit flat. Only 100 miles and hated it.

Saturday morning thought I'd give it another try.
160 down the A5 it went bang.

Called Carnell's and they came to pick me up.
Very apologetic and offered me a new bike.

I refused the offer but instead asked for the 900 version instead.
No problem sir. No extra cost.
On the Monday I had a bike that I liked

 

[dunnah01]

A lot of you IMHO are confusing design and development with what the industry calls a technique error.
The OP's failure is nothing to do with power or torque or running in etc. If it was failures would be numerous.
A technique error is unusually an assembly error or an omission like oil or coolant.
Or a manufacturing error in one of the sub components.
When any large volume of things are made they always exhibit failures with respect to time in a 'bathtub curve'if time is on the horizontal axis and failures on the vertical axis then , sadly , there will be early life failures like the OP's.
Then there is a period , the bottom of the bath , where failures are few.

That sounds more like statistics tbh. If a component is expected to work closer to it's stress limit then there will be more failures. Putting 30% more stress through the engine and drivetrain compared to the proven design is going to change the stats in a bad way

 

[Guigsy]

That sounds more like statistics tbh. If a component is expected to work closer to it's stress limit then there will be more failures. Putting 30% more stress through the engine and drivetrain compared to the proven design is going to change the stats in a bad way

If you're over-stressing a component, you'll probably draw the bathtub curve shorter so a the failures ramp up a lot after 2 years instead of 5. At which point, Fiat will reduce the service intervals and/or doing recalls. But it probably won't make much difference to the first few months of ownership.

 

[Old Gibber]

When I started out as a production engineer, I was told that a small number of returns due to failure was acceptable. That small number was easily quantifyable both economically and sales wise. No failures meant the device was over-engineered. It all depends what you want and can afford, an expensive Rolls Royce, or a mass produced car at a fraction of the price.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Old Gibber]

Water running down under the scuttle.

& is a simple fix due to it being the second set of wiper motor mounting holes for LHD/RHDrive depending on country.. On lhd ones the spare set of holes allows water in to No:1 injector surround. I plopped both mine up with silicon & stopped it. It was only by chance I noticed it as having done the injector seals I was checking them daily & unusally we had a period of rain here. Once I had noticed it I checked each tim to find it appeared after the rain . A good ferret around then showed it was the empty mounting holes.

On mine it was running down between the windscreen and the scuttle. I fixed that with mastic between the windscreen and the scuttle.

 

[Jamesh]

If you're over-stressing a component, you'll probably draw the bathtub curve shorter so a the failures ramp up a lot after 2 years instead of 5. At which point, Fiat will reduce the service intervals and/or doing recalls. But it probably won't make much difference to the first few months of ownership.

Vans are designed for 3yrs / 100,000miles.

Beyond that then !!!!

My 2015 transit's rusting underneath - need to get under and paint it!

 

[Old Gibber]

Vans are designed for 3yrs / 100,000miles.

Beyond that then !!!!

My 2015 transit's rusting underneath - need to get under and paint it!

My Ford motorhome had a 5 year warranty from Ford.

 

[Jamesh]

My Ford motorhome had a 5 year warranty from Ford.

I was thinking of fiat!

 

[nicholsong]

Do we know whether the OP has taken legal advice as to what he is entitled to do and claim?

It seems fairly obvious that the advice might include 'Rejection', with its attendant delay for another vehicle.

But there is no information on what he can do if waiting for the new engine, which may take longer than estimated.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Phill D]

It is possible that the op is quiet for the moment as he has spoken with the dealer and agreed a plan and does not want to undermine things for now.