Angles mortes and other french questions

[suffolk man]

We are heading to france next month for our first time abroad. Van is plated to 3850kg so do we suck it up and stick the angles mortes stickers on the van or do we wing it??
Same question re motorway tolls. As I understand it we can't get any of the toll tags as over 3500kg. We don't intend using motorways much so I assume we just pay as we go by card. What do all you experienced people think?

 

[PaulW2]

It does seem quite simple. If people don’t want to abide by UK laws they shouldn’t come here.

And I don’t go to (non-Western) places where I find the laws unacceptable.

Just don’t go to places if you refuse to follow their laws

 

[Garry - June]

My advice to anyone over 3500 do not get a toll tag (there are a couple that do them)... we are two thirds of the way down France as I type and we have used nearly all toll roads.... mainly because we wanted to see how we got on.... we are an 8.4m 5000kg tag axle A Class and also towing a trailer with a motorcycle on it....at every toll booth we have come up as Class 4 and some pretty scary toll fees..... my other half has each time pressed the intercom and stated very politely ... Bonjour...Je suis un Camping Car class deux (2) si vous plait... and each time after a few seconds the display has clicked from Class4 to Class 2 and the fee halved ..

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

Very useful and informative in relation to insurance. What are your thought on registration and traceability on cycles so the insurance can be utilised and claimed upon by the many third parties suffering dings, dents and scuffs from cyclists who then disappear into the night? I’m all for following the law and compliance but it needs to be an even playing field and regretfully from where I sit it feels extremely one sided at the moment with far too many on one side only too willing to play the victim far too easily. We need to get on and look after and protect each other on the road, but that cuts both ways.

Have you seen the estimates on how many motor vehicles on UK roads are uninsured, driven by people without the appropriate driving licence, using false/cloned number plates, not taxed, etc? Have you seen the number of people who complain that something has scratched or dented their car whilst in supermarket or other car parks. Do you think that cyclists did that, or would it more likely be another motorist who didn’t care?
If the police stop a cyclist, they can ask for the person’s details, same as a motorist.
Oh, and my cycles can be traced. They are marked and registered to my address, just not on a Govt database because there isn’t one.

But I can see him I have 360 Degree camera and blind spot warning. If anyone or anything enters the blind spot I get an alarm and flashing red light on the relevant side, standard Mercedes truck system

My year old motorhome doesn’t have that type of system, not did any of the HGVs that I drove, or instructed in.
Oddly enough, at work I’m dealing with an incident where a refuse collection vehicle, which does have 360 degree cameras, reversed at speed, mounting the footpath in the immediate vicinity of a group of primary school children who were participating in a BikeAbility (Cycle Proficiency) course. Turns out there is no video record as the system on that vehicle has been off-line for the last 2 months.
Today when cycling on a road with good sight lines, a motorist overtook me, not a problem except for the 2 oncoming motorcyclist who had to swerve and brake to avoid being hit be the car.

 

[Northernraider]

It isn't my responsibility to protect the cyclist.. that's their job . If they are stupid enough not to know the danger of going up the side of large vehicles they shouldn't be on the road.

Same as when the lycra mob cycle inches from my rear bumper going downhill or cycle 2 and 3 abreast on narrow windy hill climbs causing miles of tailbacks .

I'm often tempted to slam on the brakes and let the idiots run in to the back of me ....but then with no number plates and no insurance its unlikely they'd cover the damage they did.

Keep the toys off the road .

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[Northernraider]

Today when cycling on a road with good sight lines, a motorist overtook me, not a problem except for the 2 oncoming motorcyclist who had to swerve and brake to avoid being hit be the car.

Probably because you were not keeping up with the flow of traffic and causing an obstruction something a car driver would fail a test for.

If you weren't on the road none of the tax paying insured vehicles would have been in any danger

 

[Russ N Tracey]

We're plated at 3.850kg I've got the stickers for the back and magnetic for the doors and they live in the door pocket, oops I forgot to put them on (sorry officer I won't do it again)

 

[Widge]

Never understood the AM stickers, if you can see them, surely you can see the great big vehicle they are stuck on and appreciate the dangers, why does everything need warnings and instructions these days?

Yes, bring back the days when John Noakes climbed to the top of Nelsons column with no safety gear, hmmm, maybe not

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

Probably because you were not keeping up with the flow of traffic and causing an obstruction something a car driver would fail a test for.

If you weren't on the road none of the tax paying insured vehicles would have been in any danger

There was no traffic other than 2 cyclists (not riding 2 abreast before you get another trigger), 2 motorcyclists who were not travelling at high speed and both had headlights on, and one car driver who had not been getting delayed by said cyclists.
BTW, 3 of our household vehicles available to use, VED, insurance etc all paid were sitting at home, not causing any pollution nor congestion whilst we were out enjoying the countryside, keeping healthy and enjoying cycling.

 

[stewartwebr]

Have you seen the estimates on how many motor vehicles on UK roads are uninsured, driven by people without the appropriate driving licence, using false/cloned number plates, not taxed, etc? Have you seen the number of people who complain that something has scratched or dented their car whilst in supermarket or other car parks. Do you think that cyclists did that, or would it more likely be another motorist who didn’t care?
If the police stop a cyclist, they can ask for the person’s details, same as a motorist.
Oh, and my cycles can be traced. They are marked and registered to my address, just not on a Govt database because there isn’t one.

But this discussion is about cyclists, we must stop the blame game where cyclists bounce everything back to the motorist. Of course statistics clearly show motorists are more dangerous, this is due to a very different risk matrix and significantly higher numbers.
Getting back to the cyclist discussion the issue is not around you having registration, as this only helps you. My comments are around the amount of damage (not car related) which is happening to other motorists by cyclists with absolutely no traceability. Granted, a high majority are the result of battery driven bikes delivering food. But many other cases where damage occurs and the cyclist just moves off in the traffic leaving expensive repairs. I strongly advocate as todays government push us more and more towards cycling and push the political and legal power to the side of the cyclists that legislation is introduced to register (registration plate) and mandatory 3rd party insurance for anyone wishing to use the highway. Exception could be granted to anyone who chooses to use the expensive cycle lanes which are being developed at huge costs to the nations purse but cyclists seem averse to use. An incentive to get cyclists to use them could be the freedom to use in unregistered uninsured cycles.

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[MichaelT]

But this discussion is about cyclists, we must stop the blame game where cyclists bounce everything back to the motorist. Of course statistics clearly show motorists are more dangerous, this is due to a very different risk matrix and significantly higher numbers.
Getting back to the cyclist discussion the issue is not around you having registration, as this only helps you. My comments are around the amount of damage (not car related) which is happening to other motorists by cyclists with absolutely no traceability. Granted, a high majority are the result of battery driven bikes delivering food. But many other cases where damage occurs and the cyclist just moves off in the traffic leaving expensive repairs. I strongly advocate as todays government push us more and more towards cycling and push the political and legal power to the side of the cyclists that legislation is introduced to register (registration plate) and mandatory 3rd party insurance for anyone wishing to use the highway. Exception could be granted to anyone who chooses to use the expensive cycle lanes which are being developed at huge costs to the nations purse but cyclists seem averse to use. An incentive to get cyclists to use them could be the freedom to use in unregistered uninsured cycles.

If they built proper cycle lanes like they do in Spain, Germany, France and not just a pot holed 500mm by the side of the road with a line to protect the cyclists then I'm sure they would get used.

 

[stewartwebr]

If they built proper cycle lanes like they do in Spain, Germany, France and not just a pot holed 500mm by the side of the road with a line to protect the cyclists then I'm sure they would get used.

Mmm not sure, they have spent a fortune installing cycle lanes in Edinburgh and they appear as good a quality as you see in main land Europe and they remain unused. But I get your point around the half hearted effort we see in some places.

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

But this discussion is about cyclists, we must stop the blame game where cyclists bounce everything back to the motorist.

Actually, this thread was about the Angles Morts signage required in France for large/heavier vehicles to warn road users about the dangers of the blind spots that larger vehicles generally have. They are not exclusively to warn cyclists, but all road users many of whom do not appreciate the areas around large vehicles that have limited view from the driver. That group of users include cyclists, but also motorcycle riders, and other wheeled users, pedestrians, car/quadricycle drivers etc.
Unless they have driven, or at least sat in the drivers seat of large vehicles, many simply do not realise the areas that the driver does not have direct vision of. They might be covered by mirrors, or camera and screen technology, but not all vehicles have the same levels of tech. Also, mirrors are reliant on being correctly adjusted and clean, and themselves can create further blind spots. Vehicle legislation and tech has advanced safety; additional mirrors, indicator side repeaters, direct vision standards etc, but avoiding vulnerable persons putting themselves into danger is also part of the solution. Training, signage are part of those measures, as is enforcement against people who fail to follow the requirements (Regulations, Codes of Practice etc), regardless of what form of travel they use.

 

[PaulW2]

It is interesting how easily we fall into tribal thinking.

Most adult cyclists are also motorists. When we cycle we behave as cyclists and are aware of the cyclist's perspective.

It's what psychologists call the 'primary attribution error'. When other people do something we don't like we attribute it to their characters - 'they are just bastards'. When we do something for which we might be criticised we justify it based on the situation we were in.

 

[barryd]

It is interesting how easily we fall into tribal thinking.

Most adult cyclists are also motorists. When we cycle we behave as cyclists and are aware of the cyclist's perspective.

It's what psychologists call the 'primary attribution error'. When other people do something we don't like we attribute it to their characters - 'they are just bastards'. When we do something for which we might be criticised we justify it based on the situation we were in.

Probably helps if you are a cyclist, motorcyclist, car driver and a motorhome driver to really appreciate the perspective of driving / riding all four. I probably do more miles on two wheels (motorcycles mainly) than I do on four. It certainly educates you on just how bad the driving is of "some" on four wheels. I don't think its possible to go out on two wheels without experiencing someone on four wheels (or more) at some point trying to take you out. I like to think that makes me more "two wheel" aware when out in the car or van.

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[KASPAR]

I'm a cyclist, car driver, motorhome driver but more importantly where we reside I actually use the cycle lanes that have been created specifically for cyclists. Unlike hoards of lycra clad, cycling club members who fail to use the cycle lanes. There is a substantial network of cycle lanes in our town that enable safe cycling with no need to go on the roads, but the cyclists do.

The only fault with the cycle lanes is they take you via a pub!! Our e-bikes must be programmed to go to the pub.

Our hard earned is used to pay for these cycle lanes, wish cyclists would use them.

 

[Saucer]

We copied one from the internet printed it out laminated it got a couple of strong magnets from the hardware
Work a treat still use them 4years later

That’s a bit Blue Peter for me

 

[Saucer]

.

 

[Saucer]

My advice to anyone over 3500 do not get a toll tag (there are a couple that do them)... we are two thirds of the way down France as I type and we have used nearly all toll roads.... mainly because we wanted to see how we got on.... we are an 8.4m 5000kg tag axle A Class and also towing a trailer with a motorcycle on it....at every toll booth we have come up as Class 4 and some pretty scary toll fees..... my other half has each time pressed the intercom and stated very politely ... Bonjour...Je suis un Camping Car class deux (2) si vous plait... and each time after a few seconds the display has clicked from Class4 to Class 2 and the fee halved ..

….but you’re not

 

[VXman]

It isn’t to help people see the big vehicle.
It’s to remind people (particularly cyclists) that they can’t be seen in the big vehicle’s blind spots.

(Whether the stickers actually help in that is open to debate …)

Also bear in mind that parts of the motorway from Calais towards Rouen are now autotoll so if you don’t have a tag you need to pre register a card
Money is taken automatically by ANpR

Never new this? How does one know to buy a card and how, where etc?

Personally I'd like to see all cyclists off the road. They're an inconvenience and a danger to insured users

Keep the toys off the road .

And I'd like to see self centred individuals off the road but that's not going to happen either

As for toys - you are driving one! Maybe we should only allow people on the road who do so out of necessity. e.g. work.

The cyclist debate is ridiculous. Most cyclists are motorists too. I drive, tax and insure 4 vehicles. motorhome, daily car, fun car and motorcycle. Total cost of tax and insurance approx. £2300!!! I think I should be allowed to cycle on a road for free seeing as it isn't polluting like your vehicle and doesn't wear the road like yours either. Cyclists who drive making better drivers too - you should try it!

We should be doing everything to make cycling more attractive to free up the road for more essential use and get people fitter (savings for NHS and therefore taxes). Ploughing lore money into cycle lanes would be good start.

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[yodeli]

Actually, this thread was about the Angles Morts signage required in France for large/heavier vehicles to warn road users about the dangers of the blind spots that larger vehicles generally have. They are not exclusively to warn cyclists, but all road users many of whom do not appreciate the areas around large vehicles that have limited view from the driver. That group of users include cyclists, but also motorcycle riders, and other wheeled users, pedestrians, car/quadricycle drivers etc.
Unless they have driven, or at least sat in the drivers seat of large vehicles, many simply do not realise the areas that the driver does not have direct vision of. They might be covered by mirrors, or camera and screen technology, but not all vehicles have the same levels of tech. Also, mirrors are reliant on being correctly adjusted and clean, and themselves can create further blind spots. Vehicle legislation and tech has advanced safety; additional mirrors, indicator side repeaters, direct vision standards etc, but avoiding vulnerable persons putting themselves into danger is also part of the solution. Training, signage are part of those measures, as is enforcement against people who fail to follow the requirements (Regulations, Codes of Practice etc), regardless of what form of travel they use.

Thanks for putting into better English all I wanted to say myself! As I am now retired , I tend to forget a few things in English. BTW, please do not forget Funsters that I rely on your corrections to improve my knowledge, and no, Jim won't warn you or even send you to Coventry if you do so, as he knows I ask for these corrections!
TIA
Amicalement
Frankie

 

[VXman]

I just don’t understand people who don’t have them, for one it’s the law and it’s also a good safety feature….Its a bit like idiots who still don’t wear seatbelts or still use their phones whilst driving…
They should be compulsory on all Motorhomes in all countries.

Part of the issue with Angle Morts is the logic of them on a 3500kg+ motorhome. Many (most?) are no different in length than an under 3500kg one. Therefore there is no logic in putting one on. My van was 3500 when i bought it. I didn't need one. Now i'm 4250 but the vehicle has not changed in terms of it's blind spots yet I have to stick aa sticker on it. ¯\\(ツ)/¯

Also, to be honest it, i cannot see it being a safety feature. If you are not aware that a long vehcile might not see you as a cyclist youu should not be on the road. Trying to read a sign as a 40000 ton artic passes you isn't going to help!!!

To much pandering to stupid people. For example. They have blocked off the exit to our estate to right turners due to accidents. I have used this junction for 30 years without an incident. Why do I have to suffer a longer exit route from my estate because of poor drivers? Improve peoples driving skills/awareness not create silly signs to put on vehicles.

 

[CueBall]

My advice to anyone over 3500 do not get a toll tag (there are a couple that do them)... we are two thirds of the way down France as I type and we have used nearly all toll roads.... mainly because we wanted to see how we got on.... we are an 8.4m 5000kg tag axle A Class and also towing a trailer with a motorcycle on it....at every toll booth we have come up as Class 4 and some pretty scary toll fees..... my other half has each time pressed the intercom and stated very politely ... Bonjour...Je suis un Camping Car class deux (2) si vous plait... and each time after a few seconds the display has clicked from Class4 to Class 2 and the fee halved ..

The toll system is currently baed on height, not weight or number of axles. There is a break beam sensor at each booth which is set at 3 meters, if you break it you are auto charged at class 4 regardless of weight. Technically even though you are a "Camping Car" you are classed as an HGV if over 3.5T and fall into class 4. However 95% of the time they will downgrade you to class 2 rather than hold up the traffic.

We have a Kon-Tiki Tag Axle plated at 5.25T but it is the low-line version with a 2.98m height (probably slightly less when laden) and we use a Fulli tag. Because we are under 3m, we have never been charged more than class 2. "Technically" we aren't supposed to use it as we are over 3.5T, but have never had an issue and they happily take our monthly direct debit whenever we use it.

 

[Saucer]

The toll system is currently baed on height, not weight or number of axles. There is a break beam sensor at each booth which is set at 3 meters, if you break it you are auto charged at class 4 regardless of weight. Technically even though you are a "Camping Car" you are classed as an HGV if over 3.5T and fall into class 4. However 95% of the time they will downgrade you to class 2 rather than hold up the traffic.

We have a Kon-Tiki Tag Axle plated at 5.25T but it is the low-line version with a 2.98m height (probably slightly less when laden) and we use a Fulli tag. Because we are under 3m, we have never been charged more than class 2. "Technically" we aren't supposed to use it as we are over 3.5T, but have never had an issue and they happily take our monthly direct debit whenever we use it.

We have a fulli in the car which we are going to transfer over to the van, so that’s good to hear as we’ll be 3.65

 

[Do Ron Ron]

I find all this mind blowing, heading to France this year for the first time but have all the required bits, thing is my wagon was up rated from 3.2 to 3.5 the size remains the same (ALL ROUND) so why the panic to fit these da**** things

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[Scottish Scrutineer]

Part of the issue with Angle Morts is the logic of them on a 3500kg+ motorhome. Many (most?) are no different in length than an under 3500kg one. Therefore there is no logic in putting one on. My van was 3500 when i bought it. I didn't need one. Now i'm 4250 but the vehicle has not changed in terms of it's blind spots yet I have to stick aa sticker on it. ¯\\(ツ)/¯

Also, to be honest it, i cannot see it being a safety feature. If you are not aware that a long vehcile might not see you as a cyclist youu should not be on the road. Trying to read a sign as a 40000 ton artic passes you isn't going to help!!!

To much pandering to stupid people.<snip>

The 3500kg is an arbitrary figure, but fits with existing classification of vehicles. We as motorhomes are probably in a minority of those who change the permitted weight of vehicles and as such feel aggrieved. Unfortunately there are lots of people who do not have awareness of blind spots, and many have been killed or seriously injured as a result of putting themselves into dangerous positions. Last year I met an American couple whose daughter had been killed having been struck by a large vehicle. They were still trying to come to terms with it and understand why it happened, and were horrified by the blind spots around large vehicles. These were intelligent people, but unaware of the dangers until their daughter was killed.
Thinking it is common sense to know about the risks is a fatal flaw in many safety processes. The use of common sense is unfortunately not very common, but its kept me employed for over 30 years in H&S and driver training.

Have a look at http://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/reglementation-liee-la-route/reglementation-de-la-visibilite which most browsers will easily translate. The graphic helps show what the problem is.

 

[Stoosal]

Actually, this thread was about the Angles Morts signage required in France for large/heavier vehicles to warn road users about the dangers of the blind spots that larger vehicles generally have. They are not exclusively to warn cyclists, but all road users many of whom do not appreciate the areas around large vehicles that have limited view from the driver. That group of users include cyclists, but also motorcycle riders, and other wheeled users, pedestrians, car/quadricycle drivers etc.
Unless they have driven, or at least sat in the drivers seat of large vehicles, many simply do not realise the areas that the driver does not have direct vision of. They might be covered by mirrors, or camera and screen technology, but not all vehicles have the same levels of tech. Also, mirrors are reliant on being correctly adjusted and clean, and themselves can create further blind spots. Vehicle legislation and tech has advanced safety; additional mirrors, indicator side repeaters, direct vision standards etc, but avoiding vulnerable persons putting themselves into danger is also part of the solution. Training, signage are part of those measures, as is enforcement against people who fail to follow the requirements (Regulations, Codes of Practice etc), regardless of what form of travel they use.

Maybe there should be a panel attached to these vulnerable users equipment with a warning relating to large vehicles being unable to see them. A permanently attached pictoral information panel on the handlebars to remind vulnerable road users not to pass large vehicles at junctions where they may turn etc. They could see it every time they get on their bikes etc. Probably easier than trying to see it on the back or side of vehicles.

 

[barryd]

I find all this mind blowing, heading to France this year for the first time but have all the required bits, thing is my wagon was up rated from 3.2 to 3.5 the size remains the same (ALL ROUND) so why the panic to fit these da**** things

I presume we just slipped in to the category of commercial vehicles this was aimed at but it won't effect you as you are not over 3.5t.

 

[Jim]

If you weren't on the road none of the tax paying insured vehicles would have been in any danger

I'm on my bike as much as I can, and I'm paying tax and insurance on more vehicles than you, and I'd love to be on my bike holding you up on a country lane.

 

[Carpmart]

My advice to anyone over 3500 do not get a toll tag (there are a couple that do them)... we are two thirds of the way down France as I type and we have used nearly all toll roads.... mainly because we wanted to see how we got on.... we are an 8.4m 5000kg tag axle A Class and also towing a trailer with a motorcycle on it....at every toll booth we have come up as Class 4 and some pretty scary toll fees..... my other half has each time pressed the intercom and stated very politely ... Bonjour...Je suis un Camping Car class deux (2) si vous plait... and each time after a few seconds the display has clicked from Class4 to Class 2 and the fee halved ..

Still very much worth having a toll tag IMHO. We are 7.3T and 10m with the towbar mounted bike rack! None of these two factors are the issue for us as we are a two axle vehicle. The bit that gets us is height as we are 3.35m tall!

We have a tag as when it works, you’ve been billed Class Deux. Nowadays this only works 10% of the time in France, down from 50% a few years ago. The rest of the time it’s a lottery of asking, as you do, nicely on the intercom! This used to work 80% of time, but in the last two years, only works 30% of the time now. You’ve been very lucky.

The joy of the toll tag, it works perfectly in Spain and Portugal, so worth it for these locations.

As more and more zero toll booth motorways come online (big push to remove the Peage stations in France) my hope is that the tag will work 100% of the time.

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[Boswell Bear]

It isn't my responsibility to protect the cyclist.. that's their job . If they are stupid enough not to know the danger of going up the side of large vehicles they shouldn't be on the road.

Same as when the lycra mob cycle inches from my rear bumper going downhill or cycle 2 and 3 abreast on narrow windy hill climbs causing miles of tailbacks .

I'm often tempted to slam on the brakes and let the idiots run in to the back of me ....but then with no number plates and no insurance its unlikely they'd cover the damage they did.

Keep the toys off the road .

Actually it is your responsibility.