Alcohol and Wildcamping.

[cmcardle75]

The pub car park thing comes up a lot.
Someone at MHF chatted with a lawyer & gathered police info for a doc in our resources.
Pub car parks are private but there's a public invitation to attend there so the car park is only safely private outside of drinking hours - I hope I recounted that part of the info right.

Be careful, though. A pub car park that you've paid to stay in (either directly or by virtue of agreeing to use the pub) could well be considered public. You're now just a customer and the facility is "open", regardless of some hours written on the door. You don't know the other people staying there or the publican. I would treat as a public car park (i.e. be ready to prove that you had no intention to drive, which is particularly easy, as you've just arranged with the owner to stay the night, so you're off to a good start!)

 

[Brockley]

As long as you don’t lock your only set of keys in a timed safe

 

[billym]

Just for the record, a campsite is a place to which the public have access ( and a pub carpark) so the road traffic act applies.
Here is an example on a site

Man charged after car 'driven over tent' leaving woman fighting for life

Jake Waterhouse, 26, has been charged with several motoring offences after a woman was seriously injured at the Rhyd y Galen campsite in Snowdonia

www.google.com

This is a simplified version of what is and isn't.

Road or other public place: Where do driving laws apply?

Super market car park – is it a road or other public place You have to be in a road or other public place to commit most driving offences. There are a few exceptions like keeping a vehicle with no insurance, not having an MoT or stealing a car. That means you can’t be guilty […]

www.google.com

 

[Brockley]

Just for the record, a campsite is a place to which the public have access ( and a pub carpark) so the road traffic act applies.
Here is an example on a site

Man charged after car 'driven over tent' leaving woman fighting for life

Jake Waterhouse, 26, has been charged with several motoring offences after a woman was seriously injured at the Rhyd y Galen campsite in Snowdonia

www.google.com

This is a simplified version of what is and isn't.

Road or other public place: Where do driving laws apply?

Super market car park – is it a road or other public place You have to be in a road or other public place to commit most driving offences. There are a few exceptions like keeping a vehicle with no insurance, not having an MoT or stealing a car. That means you can’t be guilty […]

www.google.com

All the more reason to park up sensibly?

 

[PeteH]

Ok forget the wild camping scenario, c&cc site keswick flooding as it often does, take it nobody drinks there then

As of course can Rowntree Park in York. Usually though, you get at least a days advisory warning. The locals have been through it many times. Hence why the Office etc; is built near enough 4 or more ft above the site level, "flash" flooding is what cannot always be catered for. eg; for those who remember Lynton and Lynmouth?.

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[nicholsong]

Just for the record, a campsite is a place to which the public have access ( and a pub carpark) so the road traffic act applies.
Here is an example on a site

Man charged after car 'driven over tent' leaving woman fighting for life

Jake Waterhouse, 26, has been charged with several motoring offences after a woman was seriously injured at the Rhyd y Galen campsite in Snowdonia

www.google.com

This is a simplified version of what is and isn't.

Road or other public place: Where do driving laws apply?

Super market car park – is it a road or other public place You have to be in a road or other public place to commit most driving offences. There are a few exceptions like keeping a vehicle with no insurance, not having an MoT or stealing a car. That means you can’t be guilty […]

www.google.com

Now students study the cases in the second link. There will be a test at the end of the week, so turn up sober.

Geoff

 

[billym]

Now students study the cases in the second link. There will be a test at the end of the week, so turn up sober.

Geoff

Or just pick out the bits that suits one's own agenda.

 

[cmcardle75]

I said I wouldn't look at the case law, but I failed. An interesting article below isn't directly concerned, but gets many of the current interpretations across with lots of links to recent cases.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Pereira-Approved-Judgment-for-Hand-Down-3rd-April.pdf

Interestingly, these ruling would imply that campsites where you can only attend as members of a club might be considered private places (i.e. CL & CS without any public rights of way), whilst those with public access (i.e. Club Sites) would not. IANAL, etc. Britstops would have to be viewed on a case by case basis. There are a lot of legal considerations. Best just to assume everything is public, the requirements aren't too onerous!

 

[cmcardle75]

I said I wouldn't look at the case law, but I failed. An interesting article below isn't directly concerned, but gets many of the current interpretations across with lots of links to recent cases.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Pereira-Approved-Judgment-for-Hand-Down-3rd-April.pdf

Interestingly, these ruling would imply that campsites where you can only attend as members of a club might be considered private places (i.e. CL & CS without any public rights of way), whilst those with public access (i.e. Club Sites) would not. IANAL, etc. Britstops would have to be viewed on a case by case basis. There are a lot of legal considerations. Best just to assume everything is public, the requirements aren't too onerous!

Just to give you an idea, there was a case of drink driving on a council estate that was quashed because the roads were declared only available to residents and visitors. This is much less likely these days as as much higher percentage of roads are adopted. There is also the idea that public access might vary according to circumstances (i.e. the pub car park when pub is closed idea). However, it is very much dependent on individual circumstance. If the pub allows patrons (i.e. the public) to park overnight, this very quickly becomes "public".

 

[TM59]

So many have a misconception they are on private land. Wrong, but everyone entitled to take their chance.

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[nicholsong]

Just to give you an idea, there was a case of drink driving on a council estate that was quashed because the roads were declared only available to residents and visitors. This is much less likely these days as as much higher percentage of roads are adopted. There is also the idea that public access might vary according to circumstances (i.e. the pub car park when pub is closed idea). However, it is very much dependent on individual circumstance. If the pub allows patrons (i.e. the public) to park overnight, this very quickly becomes "public".

Be careful when following the decisions in cases.

Only cases decided in the High Court and Court of Appeal form precedents which the lower courts must follow. Decisions from lower courts may be 'persuasive' but are not binding on other courts. If there is no such precedent then a lower court is entitled to make its own decision on the facts.

Geoff

 

[suavecarve]

Most beers have an alcohol strength of 3-5% , even a small person would be extremely unlucky to be over the limit, I kn ow most people when asked by police, how many have you had say just one , but really have had more .

I nicked a small person who said he only had one beer, he was well over, saw him a couple of years later and asked him how many he really had, and he said "just the one" and he had no reason to lie at this stage, and i believed him. Since then I might have a pint on a relatively full stomach but extremely rare, maybe once or twice a year.

 

[suavecarve]

Has nobody else got an immobliser ? Find the keys that you have hidden, turn the seat back to normal and offer the keys to to the Officer saying "Turn your body cam on and you try driving it"

I really cant see any officer wanting to have that video shown in Court of him/her not being able to start a vehicle and arresting/charging.

They still need "reasonable grounds to suspect" that the offence were to occur. A vehicle they couldnt get to start in order to drive, is highly likely to negate any lawful arrest (IMV)

Has anyone even heard of any camper being in this scenario. I never have.

 

[g3cwi]

In my opinion Police Officers are concerned to stop people putting others in danger, not acting on some perceived technicality to get a prosecution. There are lots of good reasons not to have a drink in some situations though. If you were alone and the Police called by because you were parked illegally or doing something else wrong you could regret that drink.

 

[dodfloss]

I nicked a small person who said he only had one beer, he was well over, saw him a couple of years later and asked him how many he really had, and he said "just the one" and he had no reason to lie at this stage, and i believed him. Since then I might have a pint on a relatively full stomach but extremely rare, maybe once or twice a year.

fair point, I read recently a man in America has been done for been over limit many times, he insisted he had never had a drink, he then went to a specialist doctor who proved if he had certain foods he would register has dui . He proved it was a medical condition, very rare but it happened to him. Also been proved the breath tester have been faulty.

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[cmcardle75]

In my opinion Police Officers are concerned to stop people putting others in danger, not acting on some perceived technicality to get a prosecution. There are lots of good reasons not to have a drink in some situations though. If you were alone and the Police called by because you were parked illegally or doing something else wrong you could regret that drink.

Or not. I would be a reason not to move on and finish your night's sleep! You just say you'll move when you believe your alcohol level is zero. Not much they can do.

 

[g3cwi]

Or not. I would be a reason not to move on and finish your night's sleep! You just say you'll move when you believe your alcohol level is zero. Not much they can do.

I would suggest that is a high risk strategy.

 

[Wildweasle]

fair point, I read recently a man in America has been done for been over limit many times, he insisted he had never had a drink, he then went to a specialist doctor who proved if he had certain foods he would register has dui . He proved it was a medical condition, very rare but it happened to him. Also been proved the breath tester have been faulty.

I recall a similar case some years ago here in the UK, a woman who was similarly affected by potatoes and I think yeast

 

[MitchandJenny]

I Vinaros Spain, the police came and told everyone to move to a car park in town .
No probs . But a group of Germans having a birthday party said “we have all been drinking”. The cop said. “Move NOW”.
Hmmmm.
Mitch.

 

[Minxy]

The pub car park thing comes up a lot.
Someone at MHF chatted with a lawyer & gathered police info for a doc in our resources.
Pub car parks are private but there's a public invitation to attend there so the car park is only safely private outside of drinking hours - I hope I recounted that part of the info right.

So reading between the lines ... what you are really saying is that in order to be safe from prosecution if you have an alcoholic drink that may take you over the limit you have to stay in the pub until it closes and then go back in again the minute it opens?

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[TM59]

Or not. I would be a reason not to move on and finish your night's sleep! You just say you'll move when you believe your alcohol level is zero. Not much they can do.

I think you just might have pleaded guilty to drunk in charge.
Drunk driving and drunk in charge are different offences I believe but carry a similar penalty.

 

[nicholsong]

fair point, I read recently a man in America has been done for been over limit many times, he insisted he had never had a drink, he then went to a specialist doctor who proved if he had certain foods he would register has dui . He proved it was a medical condition, very rare but it happened to him. Also been proved the breath tester have been faulty.

In UK they cannot prosecute on the breath test alone. It is only the reason to take you to a police station and do a blood or urine test in order to prosecute.

Geoff

 

[cmcardle75]

I think you just might have pleaded guilty to drunk in charge.
Drunk driving and drunk in charge are different offences I believe but carry a similar penalty.

No, You've definitely admitted to being drunk, but that is not, in itself, an offence.

Simply being drunk in or near a vehicle does not count as "in charge" if you can prove an intention not to drive. This can be done in a number of ways. It is a good idea to establish one of these ways before opening the bottle.

Also, "in charge" does not typically have the same penalty as "driving" under the influence/over the limit. There is no minimum driving ban and, in practice, a ban is often not applied.

 

[nicholsong]

Does anyone have to be in charge of a vehicle at all times??

If not, is it a valid response to say that neither of us is in charge of the vehicle?

As to intent to drive, can the response be 'we do not know which of us will be the driver the next time we move the vehicle'?

Geoff

 

[Stealaway]

Four pages of if's and maybe's and points of law.

Has anybody actually been asked to take a breath test while sat in their van at night????

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[kevenh]

Four pages of if's and maybe's and points of law.

Has anybody actually been asked to take a breath test while sat in their van at night????

I had a similar thought earlier when the same points get written slightly differently & countered a few times.

How likely are we to get blotto near to a time of a planned journey with our beloved, reasonably expensive vehicles for us to be concerned about small chances of drawing attention ourselves parked off the road?
I may have to go back to the 1st post it see if the OP's question was answered.

 

[kevenh]

I may have to go back to the 1st post it see if the OP's question was answered.

OK. Legal advise on drinking while wild was requested - I think there's been mention of a resource doc hosted on MHF with a legal opinion (with police feedback too) and some posters have sounded like legal eagles so we can lock this thread - lol

 

[TM59]

Well discussed thread. Highly unlikely to fall foul of the law if you have consumed alcohol. However the possibility is still there. It has answered my question. Personally I won’t be taking that chance.

 

[Minxy]

How likely are we to get blotto near to a time of a planned journey with our beloved, reasonably expensive vehicles for us to be concerned about small chances of drawing attention ourselves parked off the road?
I may have to go back to the 1st post it see if the OP's question was answered.

Unfortunately some people do drink too much on an evening when they will be driving the following day, in a MH with the alcohol easily at hand (especially in foreign climes where plonk is cheaper) it could prove to be too much of a temptation. Its not just about being in charge of the vehicle when stationary but how 'sensible' people are the following morning about when they are 'safe' to drive ... perhaps setting a limit on the amount to be consumed as well as an cut-off time would help to ensure there is no risk of still being intoxicated.

 

[Minxy]

Four pages of if's and maybe's and points of law.

Has anybody actually been asked to take a breath test while sat in their van at night????

My hubby has ... when I suspect he has nicked my chocolate so I do a breath test to see if I can smell it on him!

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