4250kg imminent?

[Jofang]

I picked up the text below today from www.camping-car.org, which is dated 21st December 2024. The original text is in French.

The format of the three-part pink driving license was inconvenient and specific to France and some European countries. The new format called credit card is therefore closer to the format of the national identity card and other useful cards (health card, blue card, etc.). The new format is supplemented with various security features including watermark photography and page background. Its falsification therefore becomes much more difficult.

The new credit card format is also much less sensitive to handling accidents: rain, tearing, creasing, etc.

Finally, this format and its content are now officially recognized in all countries of the European Union and many EU partner countries (Norway for example).

But it is above all the fact of finally being able to officially drive vehicles with a GVW of 4250 kg with a B license that interests motorhome drivers. We are still far from the 7 to 8 tons authorized in most states in the United States and Canada. But it is a significant step towards the generalization of new vehicles with greater usability.

 

[fred_jb]

It's all or nothing. You cannot single out smoking and drinking. Everybody has the right to do what they enjoy.

If your "right" becomes everybody else's costly societal/medical problem, should that not be discouraged? It's not as if people are being jailed for these vices, just financially discouraged. Where do you draw the line in people's "right to do what they enjoy"? What about drug taking, driving unqualified and without insurance, etc, etc.

 

[Barriesimpson]

If your "right" becomes everybody else's costly societal/medical problem, should that not be discouraged? It's not as if people are being jailed for these vices, just financially discouraged. Where do you draw the line in people's "right to do what they enjoy"? What about drug taking, driving unqualified and without insurance, etc, etc.

People having crashes in cars due to their stupidity and becoming paraplegic cost a damn site more than a smoker does. So where would YOU draw the line?

 

[fred_jb]

People having crashes in cars due to their stupidity and becoming paraplegic cost a damn site more than a smoker does. So where would YOU draw the line?

Well that is a much smaller scale problem with a lot less overall cost than the impact on the NHS of the ill effects from smoking and excessive drinking, not to mention the diabetes epidemic. Also getting paralysed is an accident not a deliberate choice, though no doubt stupidity plays a part in some cases, though I suspect most cases will be genuine motoring or sporting accidents.

I would draw the line at deliberately engaging in harmful but avoidable behaviours, such as smoking and excessive drinking and eating. Because of the scale and cost of the resulting health and antisocial behaviour problems I think society has every right to try to discourage this, including by legislation and taxation.

Rights are all very well, but when one person's rights result in negative impacts on and financial cost to others then this has to be tackled. If you have ever been unfortunate enough to take yourself or a loved one to A&E on a Friday or Saturday night you can see at first hand how drinking to excess negatively impacts on other people and increases NHS costs.

 

[PlacidoD]

You might wish to add the slight inconvenience of having the vehicle seized for driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence! Could be a long walk home.

That would not apply in the scenario I postulate. If you have a Class B licence only and are plated at 3500kg then you run the risk of being prosecuted for being overweight as per the sections of the Act I referenced. Only if you up-plated but lost/failed to renew your C1 would you be driving a class of vehicle that you were not entitled to drive. The same would apply if you failed to down-plated and lost your C1.

I can see a situation in which your vehicle was so dangerously overloaded that you would not be allowed to proceed but you would have to be way over 3500kg for that to apply. The most likely scenario for that I can see would be that you have so weighed down you MoHo with permanent gear that it becomes impossible to get down to 3500kg perhaps because you have added a roof full of solar panels, a satellite dish, hydraulic leveling, tow bar, bullbar, etc, etc.. So even after jettisoning your canned food, emptying the fridge and the water tank plus jettisoning your EHU cables and your spare wheel (!) etc you are still way over. In that scenario you would deserve to "walk home"!!!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[CAB96]

Why can’t the EU just roll out the changes harmoniously for all countries within it??
Tbh they’ve had more than enough time to harmonise speed limits, road signs and markings, it’s beyond me why they wouldn’t do it, gets rid of the stupid idea of giving way on a roundabout!
Of course it’s just my selfish opinion of making it easier to cross all member states with just one set of road rules to get used to

The Member States have to agree how it will be implemented, they have a choice of Regulation or Directive.

EU Regulations apply directly in each country, no deviations, strictly translation only. All transition dates are fixed.

EU Directives are written into each Member State's law by the country itself, it allows some scope for deviation, delay, essentially plenty of wriggle room.

 

[nicholsong]

The Member States have to agree how it will be implemented, they have a choice of Regulation or Directive.

EU Regulations apply directly in each country, no deviations, strictly translation only. All transition dates are fixed.

EU Directives are written into each Member State's law by the country itself, it allows some scope for deviation, delay, essentially plenty of wriggle room.

I am pleased to see that somebody else also knows the difference.

Of course if it is a Regulation it comes into force when the EU says.

If it is a Directive the Member State can drag their feet about passing it into local law - ask the French.

Then there is Derogation to avoid either.

 

[Nigel P]

That would not apply in the scenario I postulate. If you have a Class B licence only and are plated at 3500kg then you run the risk of being prosecuted for being overweight as per the sections of the Act I referenced. Only if you up-plated but lost/failed to renew your C1 would you be driving a class of vehicle that you were not entitled to drive. The same would apply if you failed to down-plated and lost your C1.

I can see a situation in which your vehicle was so dangerously overloaded that you would not be allowed to proceed but you would have to be way over 3500kg for that to apply. The most likely scenario for that I can see would be that you have so weighed down you MoHo with permanent gear that it becomes impossible to get down to 3500kg perhaps because you have added a roof full of solar panels, a satellite dish, hydraulic leveling, tow bar, bullbar, etc, etc.. So even after jettisoning your canned food, emptying the fridge and the water tank plus jettisoning your EHU cables and your spare wheel (!) etc you are still way over. In that scenario you would deserve to "walk home"!!!

P.S. If overweight on a B licence and plated to 3500kg does that risk points on your licence? If so that is a relevant consideration.
I was referring to the above statement.
If you only have B you are restricted to 3500kg hence being overweight would also be other than accordance with a driving licence and subject to seizure as per S165A RTA 1988.

 

[PaulW2]

P.S. If overweight on a B licence and plated to 3500kg does that risk points on your licence? If so that is a relevant consideration.
I was referring to the above statement.
If you only have B you are restricted to 3500kg hence being overweight would also be other than accordance with a driving licence and subject to seizure as per S165A RTA 1988.

That's a bit of a stretch isn't it?

The section you cite refers to two other sections. One refers to insurance and the other - 87 (1) - refers to licences.

The licence bit says:

87
(1)It is an offence for a person to drive on a road a motor vehicle of any class [F1otherwise than in accordance with] a licence authorising him to drive a motor vehicle of that class.

The vehicle in question is of the correct - 3,500 kg - weight class. And the driver has a licence for it. He is not driving "other than in accordance with a driving licence." It is the correct class, it is just overloaded. And that has a scale of sanctions that apply.

(This also means that I, with a C licence which permits me to drive a vehicle with a mass of 32,000 kg, would commit exactly the same offence if I overload a 3.5t vehicle as a person with a B licence. The offence is overloading the vehicle.)

 

[PlacidoD]

A change of tack to query: Are there any proposals (or, indeed, regs in being) to change the speed restrictions that go with plating above 3500 kg? There is a downside to being plated above 3500kg in most of the EU when it comes to making rapid progress. That will not bother some but is particularly relevant to those trying to make more distant destinations.

In the UK of course we are governed by that absurdity of a restriction of an unladen weight not exceeding 3,050kg. How on earth that is enforced is a mystery!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Oldrat]

In the UK of course we are governed by that absurdity of a restriction of an unladen weight not exceeding 3,050kg. How on earth that is enforced is a mystery!

Bang on the money.

I’ve never known it to be enforced.

Couple that with minuscule police resources in traffic departments, and training and you get zero officers with any specialist knowledge of traffic legislation. So most leave well alone or risk getting it wildly wrong.
Specialist ‘wheel tapper’ DVSA road checks are few and far between for similar reasons.

Often with proprietary motorhome brands they’ll be a clue, they provide the unladen weight, often only in the paperwork.

But with conversions, the UL weight can be anything and almost never recorded anywhere.

A roadside check would need to have everything taken out to find the correct UL weight - “It’ll only take a minute officer!”

 

[PaulW2]

A change of tack to query: Are there any proposals (or, indeed, regs in being) to change the speed restrictions that go with plating above 3500 kg? There is a downside to being plated above 3500kg in most of the EU when it comes to making rapid progress. That will not bother some but is particularly relevant to those trying to make more distant destinations.

Not as I understand it. So one may have a 4,250 motorhome weight limit on a B licence, but then one has the 3.5t access restrictions, the different speed limits, the potential toll issues...

In the UK of course we are governed by that absurdity of a restriction of an unladen weight not exceeding 3,050kg. How on earth that is enforced is a mystery!

I think it isn't. All they can reasonably hope to manage is enforcement based on weight limits that match the driving licence weight categories. I'm not sure that this is very effectively done either, but stand to be corrected.

(Edit: there's a list of bureaucratic absurdities that one could compile, within and outside the road traffic world, of which this would be only one. We seem to just add complexity upon complexity.)

 

[DDJC]

I am pleased to see that somebody else also knows the difference.

Of course if it is a Regulation it comes into force when the EU says.

If it is a Directive the Member State can drag their feet about passing it into local law - ask the French.

Then there is Derogation to avoid either.

I again defer to the legal brains on here, but my understanding was that even if the move is given as a Directive, the home nation cannot intervene or prohibit something, if another EU nation has implemented that Directive?

So for example, if the French drag their feet on an EU Directive to increase B weight to 4250, and the Germans implement it immediately, the French cannot stop German drivers driving their 4250 motorhomes into France. Basically it can only affect French drivers.

Happy to be corrected if my understanding is off, but this is key. If a Directive or Regulation to increase the B cat weight from 3500 to 4250, is given by the EU, UK must surely follow suit, or you would have the ridiculous situation of driving a 4250kg bus to Dover illegally on a B licence, and then becoming legal as you drive off the ramp on the other side.

 

[Rob Hammond]

All this thread does for me is enforces the belief that politicians and bureaucrats haven't got a fricking clue

 

[enark]

A change of tack to query: Are there any proposals (or, indeed, regs in being) to change the speed restrictions that go with plating above 3500 kg? There is a downside to being plated above 3500kg in most of the EU when it comes to making rapid progress. That will not bother some but is particularly relevant to those trying to make more distant destinations.

In the UK of course we are governed by that absurdity of a restriction of an unladen weight not exceeding 3,050kg. How on earth that is enforced is a mystery!

It is enforced. My son hired a panel van for moving furniture and got done for 56mph on a single carriageway national speed limit road. Vehicle over 3050kgs speed limit is 50mph.

Cost him £35 admin fee to Enterprise and £86 for a speed awareness session.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[enark]

Bang on the money.

I’ve never known it to be enforced.

Couple that with minuscule police resources in traffic departments, and training and you get zero officers with any specialist knowledge of traffic legislation. So most leave well alone or risk getting it wildly wrong.
Specialist ‘wheel tapper’ DVSA road checks are few and far between for similar reasons.

Often with proprietary motorhome brands they’ll be a clue, they provide the unladen weight, often only in the paperwork.

But with conversions, the UL weight can be anything and almost never recorded anywhere.

A roadside check would need to have everything taken out to find the correct UL weight - “It’ll only take a minute officer!”

West Mercia police excluded?

 

[Orion]

It is enforced. My son hired a panel van for moving furniture and got done for 56mph on a single carriageway national speed limit road. Vehicle over 3050kgs speed limit is 50mph.

Cost him £35 admin fee to Enterprise and £86 for a speed awareness session.

I think you are confusing the speed limits for motor caravans being greater or less than 3050kg with those for commercial vehicles. Even our lowly Peugeot Partner vans are subject to the lower national speed limits for commercial vehicles sub 7.5t ULW - and it does get enforced as a couple of the lads have found out to their cost!

Speed limits

A limit of 30 miles per hour or 48 kilometres per hour usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting

www.gov.uk

 

[Roby2008]

A change of tack to query: Are there any proposals (or, indeed, regs in being) to change the speed restrictions that go with plating above 3500 kg? There is a downside to being plated above 3500kg in most of the EU when it comes to making rapid progress. That will not bother some but is particularly relevant to those trying to make more distant destinations.

In the UK of course we are governed by that absurdity of a restriction of an unladen weight not exceeding 3,050kg. How on earth that is enforced is a mystery!

Not in Germany, the over 3500kg speed limits , overtaking and weight restrictions will stay as they are.......the toll limit in Austria will stay at 3500kg, above this you need a toll box and pay per km (as now)....I have no evidence yet but I can't see other EU countries changing their toll limits.

I will stay with my 3500kg MH, the cost of those extra kitchen sink kilos is not worth it....

 

[Guigsy]

All this thread does for me is enforces the belief that politicians and bureaucrats haven't got a fricking clue

It's a fact that heavier vehicles are less safe, use more fuel and damage the road surface more. They are often also larger, so take up more road space.

But we want the weight limits increased because... we like big motorhomes?

 

[WESTY66]

Not in Germany, the over 3500kg speed limits , overtaking and weight restrictions will stay as they are.......the toll limit in Austria will stay at 3500kg, above this you need a toll box and pay per km (as now)....I have no evidence yet but I can't see other EU countries changing their toll limits.

I will stay with my 3500kg MH, the cost of those extra kitchen sink kilos is not worth it....

Regarding motorway speed limits in Germany for mohos over 3.5t google searches say 80kmh some say 100kmh my Garmin camper says 100kmh, so what is it? Does anyone actually know, other than the speed cameras that flashed me twice yesterday at 90 and 92kmh
So I’m guessing it’s 80kmh

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[BikerGraham]

Regarding motorway speed limits in Germany for mohos over 3.5t google searches say 80kmh some say 100kmh my Garmin camper says 100kmh, so what is it? Does anyone actually know, other than the speed cameras that flashed me twice yesterday at 90 and 92kmh
So I’m guessing it’s 80kmh

I noticed coming through France recently that my Garmin camper, which has a specific vehicle type as a motorhome, was indicating a 110kph speed limit at times also.
In Spain it was 80or 90.

 

[enark]

I think you are confusing the speed limits for motor caravans being greater or less than 3050kg with those for commercial vehicles. Even our lowly Peugeot Partner vans are subject to the lower national speed limits for commercial vehicles sub 7.5t ULW - and it does get enforced as a couple of the lads have found out to their cost!

Speed limits

A limit of 30 miles per hour or 48 kilometres per hour usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting

www.gov.uk

Im not confusing anything.

A van over 3050 kgs unladen weight is restricted to lesser speed limits than cars..

 

[enark]

It's a fact that heavier vehicles are less safe, use more fuel and damage the road surface more. They are often also larger, so take up more road space.

But we want the weight limits increased because... we like big motorhomes?

Or because the likes of Carthago, Burstner et al want to sell bigger MHs? Which makes them more profit?

 

[poppycamper]

Im not confusing anything.

A van over 3050 kgs unladen weight is restricted to lesser speed limits than cars..

If by van you mean motorcaravan then you are indeed correct..
However if by van you mean a goods van or similar you are mistaken because the 3050kg only applies to motorcaravans

 

[enark]

If by van you mean motorcaravan then you are indeed correct..
However if by van you mean a goods van or similar you are mistaken because the 3050kg only applies to motorcaravans

Correct, and 2040kgs applies to others..(with exceptions)

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[nicholsong]

It's a fact that heavier vehicles are less safe, use more fuel and damage the road surface more. They are often also larger, so take up more road space.

But we want the weight limits increased because... we like big motorhomes?

We do not want a MH bigger than our N&B Arto at 7m and 3850kg, but a higher weight would allow OH to drive it, because her Polish licence does not carry 'grandmother rights' like mine, although Poland was happy to transfer mine over to my Polish licence, unlike some other countries - Portugal, France?

 

[Lenny HB]

A roadside check would need to have everything taken out to find the correct UL weight - “It’ll only take a minute officer!”

And remove everything fitted after it left the factory, Awning, extra batteries, solar panels etc. Also drain the fluids including fuel tank.

 

[Guigsy]

We do not want a MH bigger than our N&B Arto at 7m and 3850kg, but a higher weight would allow OH to drive it, because her Polish licence does not carry 'grandmother rights' like mine, although Poland was happy to transfer mine over to my Polish licence, unlike some other countries - Portugal, France?

What I mean is that there's no logical reason to increase the weight limits, other than coz people wanna. But several reasons not to.

 

[Rob Hammond]

It's a fact that heavier vehicles are less safe, use more fuel and damage the road surface more. They are often also larger, so take up more road space.

But we want the weight limits increased because... we like big motorhomes?

Not arguing the whys and wherefores just the lunacy of the mentioned political incompetence.

 

[Guigsy]

Not arguing the whys and wherefores just the lunacy of the mentioned political incompetence.

What's the incompetence? It's a mess because of historic reasons and the difficulty of taking rights away. Politicians don't win any favours by straightening it out, but they will make lots of enemies.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[PlacidoD]

Not arguing the whys and wherefores just the lunacy of the mentioned political incompetence.

Are you seriously suggesting that this government should prioritise sorting the idiosyncratic rules regarding weight limits, speed limits and excise licences concerning the minority pastime of motorhome ownership rather sorting out the NHS, crumbling schools, the housing crisis, unemployment, immigration, the threat that is Trump, the threat that is Putin etc, etc?

Parroting "I blame the government" gets nobody anywhere.