4250kg imminent?

[Jofang]

I picked up the text below today from www.camping-car.org, which is dated 21st December 2024. The original text is in French.

The format of the three-part pink driving license was inconvenient and specific to France and some European countries. The new format called credit card is therefore closer to the format of the national identity card and other useful cards (health card, blue card, etc.). The new format is supplemented with various security features including watermark photography and page background. Its falsification therefore becomes much more difficult.

The new credit card format is also much less sensitive to handling accidents: rain, tearing, creasing, etc.

Finally, this format and its content are now officially recognized in all countries of the European Union and many EU partner countries (Norway for example).

But it is above all the fact of finally being able to officially drive vehicles with a GVW of 4250 kg with a B license that interests motorhome drivers. We are still far from the 7 to 8 tons authorized in most states in the United States and Canada. But it is a significant step towards the generalization of new vehicles with greater usability.

 

[Widge]

So medicals every 5 years from 55 for a C1?

Surprisingly, completely different from ours.

Its medicals every 5 years until you are 60 my interpretation is that you have to have a medical at 60 regardless of whether you had your last medical when you were 58.

 

[PlacidoD]

A friend of mine let his C1 go at 70, he is 78 now (79 next month) he got it reinstated a month ago and has uprated his van.

Personally I think this is the only safe way to go. Buy/keep something that can be plated at 3500kg but can be/has been up-plated (ideally to 4250kg). You can then slim down if you have to (To the point where the real risk is having to empty your water tank if pulled over and made to visit a weighbridge) but load up with plenty of wine bottles and fromages etc if you still have the C1 and have up-plated.

P.S. If overweight on a B licence and plated to 3500kg does that risk points on your licence? If so that is a relevant consideration.

EDIT: To answer my own question it looks like the real risk is a fine. You would have to be seriously overweight to risk points or even, worst case scenario, a ban:

DVSA (VOSA) - Excess Weight Offences - Patterson Law

Overloading of a vehicle is governed by VOSA who impose strict penalties on drivers carrying excess weight for their vehicle, overweight van penalties, vehicle overloading. CU50 driving offences carry 3 penalty points. Have you been wrongly accused? We can help defend your driving licence

www.pattersonlaw.co.uk

 

[Widge]

A category B licence allows a trailer up to 3500kgs or the towing limit of the vehicle. Which makes a mockery of the 70+yrs 3500kgs limit, this then puts the maximum to 7000kgs!!

Surely you need a category BE to use a trailer over 750kg, which is fine if you are old enough to to get a BE as a freebee, otherwise it is not included on a standard licence, unless i have misunderstood.

 

[PaulW2]

Personally I think this is the only safe way to go. Buy/keep something that can be plated at 3500kg but can be/has been up-plated (ideally to 4250kg). You can then slim down if you have to (To the point where the real risk is having to empty your water tank if pulled over and made to visit a weighbridge) but load up with plenty of wine bottles and fromages etc if you still have the C1 and have up-plated.

P.S. If overweight on a B licence and plated to 3500kg does that risk points on your licence? If so that is a relevant consideration.

I think in the UK 3 points come into play once you're 15% overloaded. 525 kg on a 3,500 kg van would of course be ... quite a lot

If 30% or more you could have a court summons etc. (Source: AA)

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[VXman]

We are a very small minority and I doubt this government would spend any time on this. Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of this - would make selling my motorhome easier in a couple of years - but don't see it happening.

It wouldn't affect just motorhomers - it would affect anyone driving vehicles over 3500. It could have a big effect on van drivers in their 20's/30's/40's. They could all start driving heavier vehicles. This is a big part of the driving population. Manufacturers would probably start building vehicles to 4250KG spec rather than limiting themselves to 3500.

Err our VED is £165 for our 4.25t motorhome, although as a disabled person with my vehicle registered with DVLA it's actually £0

Yes, but I think the point is that if 4250 becomes the norm then it would no longer be classed as PHGV and would just be the normal light vehicle VED so your £165 would change to £345

 

[VXman]

One advantage of upping the limit would be that people like me that have uprated our vehicles to 4250 would have a better selling market without the need to downgrade it back to 3500.

 

[poppycamper]

Yes, but I think the point is that if 4250 becomes the norm then it would no longer be classed as PHGV and would just be the normal light vehicle VED so your £165 would change to £345

I personally would be happy paying the extra VED ammount if it reduced the medical hoops we have to jump through at the moment!!

 

[PaulW2]

It wouldn't affect just motorhomers - it would affect anyone driving vehicles over 3500. It could have a big effect on van drivers in their 20's/30's/40's. They could all start driving heavier vehicles. This is a big part of the driving population. Manufacturers would probably start building vehicles to 4250KG spec rather than limiting themselves to 3500.


Yes, but I think the point is that if 4250 becomes the norm then it would no longer be classed as PHGV and would just be the normal light vehicle VED so your £165 would change to £345

In the EU the proposed change will only apply to EVs, ambulances and motorhomes. Not other cars or vans.

 

[Simonjdcooper]

Is that not purely for electic powered commercial vehicles?

It's probably too complex to allow just for certain vehicles, so the easy thing is to give people back a little of what was taken away. i.e more weight to drive.

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[Jonno1103]

It's also about having larger local multi drop delivery vans which will lead to less of them on the roads and entice younger drivers. Bear in mind that as of 2023 only 22% of U.K. drivers has C1.

EV's simply aren't cost effective for them to use, they don't have the range and the energy cost to recharge fleets at distribution centres is astronomical. Essentially Putin's attack on Ukraine has radically changed the landscape in terms of fossil fuel energy provision for both the UK & Europe's power stations. Pre invasion the U.K. spent around £13 billion pa on LNG today that cost is £80 billion.

EV's catch fire, fact, and when they do it takes fire crews around 4 -5 hours to put them out - a bit different to the 30 mins spent extinguishing and ICE powered vehicle.

All of this has been taken into consideration.

Diesel ICE have an alternative drop in fuel for all modern Euro 6 Final powered vans which many distribution centres are turning to, HVO. This has zero FAME, the additive in Biodiesel, zero sulphur, no PM's negligable NOx all without reduction systems such as DPF's or gas recirculation. It reduces todays GHG by a further 90%. It also has a 10 year shelf life and has more energy than modern diesel.

I've used it in our motorhome in Ireland where it's available at the pump.

 

[Guigsy]

Of course it might. What is the accident to death ratio in the UK? Let's say 1 death for every 100 accidents. Which would then make it say 50,000 medicals per death.

At a loaded cost of maybe £ 5 m per death.

A very different number to the costs the state is willing to invest in a life in any other domain.

That is why I would like to see numbers.

(Edit: a quick Google tells me that in 2022 0.21% of the UK population - say 140,700 people - were involved in a road accident. Same year 1,766 people died. This would give a fatality per 'case' of about 1.26% rather than my 1% SWAG above.)

Given that motorhomes are heavier, less agile and have significantly worse crash protection, they're probably quite a lot worse than the average motor vehicle in terms of accident severity.

 

[PaulW2]

Given that motorhomes are heavier, less agile and have significantly worse crash protection, they're probably quite a lot worse than the average motor vehicle in terms of accident severity.

Possibly. But here we are talking about vehicles that do much lower mileage than most, that tend to avoid the busiest roads and times, a demographic of very experienced and typically risk-averse drivers and so on.

Another reason to want to see numbers.

 

[VXman]

In the EU the proposed change will only apply to EVs, ambulances and motorhomes. Not other cars or vans.

Really? - well if true that is a nonsense and just complicates the system. I would suggest that the UK don't follow and implement their own system but that would surely be a disaster!

 

[PaulW2]

Really? - well if true that is a nonsense and just complicates the system. I would suggest that the UK don't follow and implement their own system but that would surely be a disaster!

It's in the paragraph mentioned in the article I linked to in #15.

I'm not sure that it's really that complicated. Certainly not from a driving licence admin and enforcement point of view.

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[Lenny HB]

Really? - well if true that is a nonsense and just complicates the system. I would suggest that the UK don't follow and implement their own system but that would surely be a disaster!

Yes it is correct.

 

[Platelet]

Surely you need a category BE to use a trailer over 750kg, which is fine if you are old enough to to get a BE as a freebee, otherwise it is not included on a standard licence, unless i have misunderstood.

The trailer extension to your licence ie. Taking a trailer test was scrapped a few years ago, but the BE category is confusing

Category BE​

You can drive a vehicle with a maximum authorised mass (MAM) of 3,500kg with a trailer.

The size of the trailer depends on the BE ‘valid from’ date shown on your licence. If the date is:

• before 19 January 2013, you can tow any size trailer within the towing limits of the vehicle
• on or after 19 January 2013, you can tow a trailer with a MAM of up to 3,500kg within the towing limits of the vehicle

 

[DT]

Once again we will remain in the dark ages with roads that have so many holes even a horse and cart would suffer. Don't hold your breath on something as simple as vehicle weights our mob are incapable of making any sensible decisions. Maybe they will have a committee set us that has several sub committee's, several working groups costing millions of £s taking several years .................

 

[VXman]

It's in the paragraph mentioned in the article I linked to in #15.

I'm not sure that it's really that complicated. Certainly not from a driving licence admin and enforcement point of view.

The license system is already complex and has many anomalies. This would just add to that. With todays technology in terms of brakes/suspension/steering basing permission to drive vehicles on weight is pointless and should be based on size.

The US are a little more sensible where you can drive up to 26000 pounds (11 ton) on a standard license in many states

 

[enark]

The license system is already complex and has many anomalies. This would just add to that. With todays technology in terms of brakes/suspension/steering basing permission to drive vehicles on weight is pointless and should be based on size.

The US are a little more sensible where you can drive up to 26000 pounds (11 ton) on a standard license in many states

And the annual deaths on US roads are……?

Think we are doing something right here in the UK thanks.

Ive been undergoing medicals for years, to maintain my C+E, and rightly so..

Just cus i passed my HGV 1 as it was then at 19, does not mean i don’t deteriorate with age?

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[fred_jb]

[
[/QUOTE]

Diesel ICE have an alternative drop in fuel for all modern Euro 6 Final powered vans which many distribution centres are turning to, HVO. This has zero FAME, the additive in Biodiesel, zero sulphur, no PM's negligable NOx all without reduction systems such as DPF's or gas recirculation. It reduces todays GHG by a further 90%. It also has a 10 year shelf life and has more energy than modern diesel.

I've used it in our motorhome in Ireland where it's available at the pump.

Not sure how a change of fuel can result in negligible NOx without reduction systems. I thought NOx formation is due to the fact that 80% of the air sucked into an engine is nitrogen, with only 20% being the oxygen required to burn the fuel. This nitrogen is then subjected to high temperatures and pressures, the latter especially in diesel engines, which run at very high compression ratios compared to petrol engines, leading to greater NOx formation in diesel than petrol powered vehicles. I can't see how a change in fuel can do much to reduce that.

 

[PaulW2]

The license system is already complex and has many anomalies. This would just add to that. With todays technology in terms of brakes/suspension/steering basing permission to drive vehicles on weight is pointless and should be based on size.

The US are a little more sensible where you can drive up to 26000 pounds (11 ton) on a standard license in many states

B licence? You can drive vehicles up to 3.5t. Except in the case of these three types, where the limit is 4.25t. Seems pretty simple to me.

And it will become the European standard, so motorhomes that are built there will in future be built for a market where this standard applies.

 

[Widge]

The license system is already complex and has many anomalies. This would just add to that. With todays technology in terms of brakes/suspension/steering basing permission to drive vehicles on weight is pointless and should be based on size.

The US are a little more sensible where you can drive up to 26000 pounds (11 ton) on a standard license in many states

Everyone to their own ideas, but personally, with the general standard of driving these days, the last thing would want, would be to allow people to drive anything that large without tuition.

 

[PlacidoD]

Once again we will remain in the dark ages with roads that have so many holes even a horse and cart would suffer. Don't hold your breath on something as simple as vehicle weights our mob are incapable of making any sensible decisions. Maybe they will have a committee set us that has several sub committee's, several working groups costing millions of £s taking several years .................

They do have a number of other matters on their plate that rightly are a higher priority but this should be a simple matter of copying EU law if we are not to disadvantage UK manufacturers.

 

[nicholsong]

Everyone to their own ideas, but personally, with the general standard of driving these days, the last thing would want, would be to allow people to drive anything that large without tuition.

I do not understand why 'tuition' would be necessary, because currently anyone with a B licence can jump from a Mini to a 7m MH without tuition.

MHs at 4250kg are not substantially larger in dimensions than those at 3500kg. Heavier yes, but that requires the vehicle to fitted with different suspension and, tyres and braking capability, but is a Cosdtruction and use matter, which is not improved by driver tuition. The driver still uses the same brake pedal but is just more effective.

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[enark]

I do not understand why 'tuition' would be necessary, because currently anyone with a B licence can jump from a Mini to a 7m MH without tuition.

MHs at 4250kg are not substantially larger in dimensions than those at 3500kg. Heavier yes, but that requires the vehicle to fitted with different suspension and, tyres and braking capability, but is a Cosdtruction and use matter, which is not improved by driver tuition. The driver still uses the same brake pedal but is just more effective.

Because ver 3.5t is now (since 1997) considered HGV, so the test and training cover this.

Agree its maybe unnecessary, but thats the rules.

Tbh if your going to pay for C1, you may as well just do C, at least then you get something worthwhile.

 

[poppycamper]

do not understand why 'tuition' would be necessary, because currently anyone with a B licence can jump from a Mini to a 7m MH without tuition.

Did not realise there was a size restriction for 'B' license holders...
Only weight restrictions..

 

[enark]

Everyone to their own ideas, but personally, with the general standard of driving these days, the last thing would want, would be to allow people to drive anything that large without tuition.

Road deaths would indicate driving is better than pre 1997…

But some of this credit goes to safer cars, which may also increase collisions (drivers feeing safer?)

 

[Widge]

I do not understand why 'tuition' would be necessary, because currently anyone with a B licence can jump from a Mini to a 7m MH without tuition.

MHs at 4250kg are not substantially larger in dimensions than those at 3500kg. Heavier yes, but that requires the vehicle to fitted with different suspension and, tyres and braking capability, but is a Cosdtruction and use matter, which is not improved by driver tuition. The driver still uses the same brake pedal but is just more effective.

I was mainly refering to vxmans comment suggesting that allowing someone to drive something as large as 11 tons on a standard license (as per in the US) is a sensible idea.

 

[Molly A]

Really?

Yes, it would clearly contravene our sovereignty....

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[Lynne Roy]

He should cast his net a bit wider, there are firms offering course and test for just over £1000 2/3 days.

I will definitely sign Roy up for that