2030 no new diesel vans. What's your plan?

[minesapint]

Covered many many times on this thread and otheres.

The grid does not struggle on a cold day in the UK. As to no wind. That is why we will have hydrogen generators and grid scale storage in the form of batteries and compressed air to name two.

Batteries are not polluting, they will be reused then recycled.

If you buy a car that can only do 100 miles and you know you need to 130. Says more about you than the car. You should have bought one capable of 200 miles.

Good luck on waiting for hydrogen. I would suggest you read the rest of this thread as most of your points have been covered.

Gromett
Firstly I suggest you view this article from a national paper. admittedly this was low wind scenario and power plant problems but delving in to the situation more deeply it is a scenario that can happen any time, and I would rather have electricity in my home than powering millions of car chargers. = https://www.theguardian.com/busines...hort-supply-of-electricity-over-next-few-days
Secondly I was not talking about cars I was talking about Motorhomes.
There is not a 3.5 ton van yet capable of covering 200 miles, so please read the post properly before adding a sarcastic comment.
The vans being used by couriers are reported to only be covering at most 120 miles. No good in a motorhome. Or do you not go far in yours.
As for the batteries, this is a quote from a recycling paper==

Recycling technologies for end-of-life lithium ion batteries (LIBs) are not keeping pace with the rapid rise of electric vehicles, storing up a potentially huge waste management problem for the future, according to a new study.​

At the moment an EV MoHo would not be any use to me, and I will not buy an EV car until battery tech gets a bit better or Hydrogen power comes on stream. Battery tech may soon with the new huge battery plant being built in the UK.

As for good luck waiting for Hydrogen. Toyota will have an Hydrogen fuelled demo truck on the road in 2021, as they see hydrogen as the only way of powering heavy vehicles, that EV tech could not handle. Look at this link for info on fuel cell trucks that are in use now .https://www.fleetowner.com/running-green/article/21130119/putting-hydrogen-fuel-cell-trucks-to-work

Until then we have a Euro 6 engined car which I will continue to use and a euro 6 engined toad.

 

[Gromett]

Hydrogen is an emerging technology even the AA has a Hydrogen ‘get you home’ tank the negative comments are just like those pre lithium batteries for EV’s it’s a space to watch and see how developments go rather than Say never

I am not saying never. I am saying it would be bloody crazy, expensive and short sighted. The physics and economics of it means it would be catastrophically expensive.

 

[Gromett]

Gromett
Firstly I suggest you view this article from a national paper. admittedly this was low wind scenario and power plant problems but delving in to the situation more deeply it is a scenario that can happen any time, and I would rather have electricity in my home than powering millions of car chargers. = https://www.theguardian.com/busines...hort-supply-of-electricity-over-next-few-days

I have responded to this a number of times. This was call for contracts. It is part of the system that works perfectly well. Within hours of the call going out generators bid for contracts and brought additional supply online. There was not a shortage of generating capacity, it was a warning that the buffer was falling below the recommended level. They have a predicted amount of demand and they add a buffer to this. If the buffer falls too low they make this call. It is the first time since 2015 the process has been used if I understand this correctly. Prior to 2015 before wind power kicked off, we had constant scare stories about us running out of gas in the winter and not being able to generate electric. The grid has actually reduced the number of shortages scares since wind has ramped up.

Secondly I was not talking about cars I was talking about Motorhomes.
There is not a 3.5 ton van yet capable of covering 200 miles, so please read the post properly before adding a sarcastic comment.
The vans being used by couriers are reported to only be covering at most 120 miles. No good in a motorhome. Or do you not go far in yours.

In the post I responded to you mentioned cars but never mentioned motorhomes. I don't think I was being unreasonable in making that assumption. I wasn't meaning to be sarcastic I was saying it as I saw it. If someone buys a car or a motorhome with only 100 miles range knowing they need to go further then it is really silly and their own fault.

I have covered this many many times before but will do so again to save you going back and looking for it.

Currently we are supply side constrained on batteries. So a van manufacturer given a fixed supply of batteries has a choice. Let's use 1,000KWh as an example. With this supply of batteries they can either make 20 x 50KWh vans for local use which is the biggest segment of the market. Or they can make 10 x 100KWh vans with a much longer range. As both vans will produce the same amount of profit they have a choice of selling 10 or 20 vans they will always go for 20 x 50KWh vans. This is why there are no long range vans currently being offered.

As battery supply increases as it will over the next 10 years leading up the 2030 ban, battery supply will increase and price will come down. In 10 years you can start looking for your electric motorhome.

As for the batteries, this is a quote from a recycling paper==

Recycling technologies for end-of-life lithium ion batteries (LIBs) are not keeping pace with the rapid rise of electric vehicles, storing up a potentially huge waste management problem for the future, according to a new study.​

Recycling technology for current use of lithium batteries is no good. Currently the mass quantity of lithium batteries are in 1,000's of form factors, are surrounded in plastic and are generally very small. These all make it very hard to recycle them. Phone, tablet and laptop batteries are hard to separate and to process.

EV batteries are different. They are larger format, very little if any plastic and in a limited range of form factors. Recycling will not only become economical but profitable. This is from the battery experts themselves. Also a battery that is at the end of it's life in an EV still has loads of capacity left in it and will be reused in storage system for another 10-25 years before recycling becomes an issue.

The bulk of a lithium battery is Aluminium and Copper with a bit of lithium and some other trace valuable elements. They are recyclable.

At the moment an EV MoHo would not be any use to me, and I will not buy an EV car until battery tech gets a bit better or Hydrogen power comes on stream. Battery tech may soon with the new huge battery plant being built in the UK.

At the moment they are not a lot of use to anyone, because there aren't any and no one is going to build one until the new generation of vans with decent range get built.

As for good luck waiting for Hydrogen. Toyota will have an Hydrogen fuelled demo truck on the road in 2021, as they see hydrogen as the only way of powering heavy vehicles, that EV tech could not handle. Look at this link for info on fuel cell trucks that are in use now .https://www.fleetowner.com/running-green/article/21130119/putting-hydrogen-fuel-cell-trucks-to-work

Of course hydrogen is possible. FCEV is a fact. It is just not economical for the reasons I have also covered many times.
To produce hydrogen by electrolysis you would need 2-3 times the amount of electric than you would if you just charged a battery. If you think there will be issues generating enough electric for BEV then you should really look into the maths for FCEV's.
It still needs a battery
Hydrogen fuelling stations cost between $1M and $3M per filling point. VS $200,000 on average for a high speed charger for an EV. How many Hydrogen fuelling stations would we need?
FCEV are no cheaper than BEV.

Hydrogen has one advantage and that is that you can refill in 5 minutes. By 2030 expect high power chargers and batteries capable of this and all of a sudden hydrogen has no advantages and ALL of the problems. Not to mention the first time one goes boom it is going to scare a lot of people off.

As for Batteries not being suitable for heavy trucking. Try telling Tesla that who are launching a 600 mile class 8 truck in the US next year. If they can do it cost effectively then it won't be long before others follow suite.

Until then we have a Euro 6 engined car which I will continue to use and a euro 6 engined toad.

That is a perfectly rational position to take. No one is saying that you need to rush out and buy an EV now, or even in 2030. There will still be second hand ICE cars will into the mid 2040's.

 

[Gromett]

Aside from all the problems I mention above with hydrogen I will add this one which is a real practical one.

Currently, people buying EV's are generally the ones who can charge at home. To avoid getting into an argument on the stats. Let's just use a really really conservative and pessimistic figure of 50%.

So you can have half the population of the UK buying an EV and charging from home. Now a company looking at this level of a future market would be willing to invest in battery charging stations because they know they can get the money back.

On the other hand, a hydrogen car needs a fuel station much like a petrol station. Because there aren't any and you can't fill up at home, very few people are going to buy a hydrogen car. Because there are very few hydrogen cars on the road no company is going to invest the massive amounts of money needed to build a network of hydrogen stations around the country without massive subsidy.

Hydrogen is a catch 22 from this practical reason alone. Never mind the efficiency, cost and electric demand issues.

 

[Gromett]

And a final kicker for hydrogen cars. Other than the Toyota Mirai are there any others in mass production? So even if you wanted an expensive hydrogen car, had a hydrogen station near you, you would still be stuck with a choice of either the Toyota Mirai or the Toyota Mirai?

The Hyundai ix35 has been discontinued and the hyundai Nexo is not available yet as I understand it.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Coolcats]

I am not saying never. I am saying it would be bloody crazy, expensive and short sighted. The physics and economics of it means it would be catastrophically expensive.

Not sure you are correct Gromett, your posts make it clear that you love Musk and Tesla however other bight physicists and engineers are lurking in their Bat caves working on other stuff...technology is politically shaped, Musk gets all the press in the past when a rocket blew up its was marked as a fail, today Space X had a rocket blow up but the spin doctors claim it was a success what a weird media drivel world we live in....oh and those past failures meant success in the long run but its how the marketing teams spin stuff so don't be too sure that Hydrogen is not going to have a place with alternate fuelled vehicles.

Cummins, Navistar to Develop hydrogen fuel Cell-powered heavy truck

A closer look at Hydrogen fuelled trucks

Kenworth hydrogen-powered truck achieve landmark milestone

Hydrogen-powered roadsweepers to clean up Aberdeen's air

Hydrogen train runs on UK railway for the first time

AA puts emergency refuelling van to the test

 

[Coolcats]

I have responded to this a number of times. This was call for contracts. It is part of the system that works perfectly well. Within hours of the call going out generators bid for contracts and brought additional supply online. There was not a shortage of generating capacity, it was a warning that the buffer was falling below the recommended level. They have a predicted amount of demand and they add a buffer to this. If the buffer falls too low they make this call. It is the first time since 2015 the process has been used if I understand this correctly. Prior to 2015 before wind power kicked off, we had constant scare stories about us running out of gas in the winter and not being able to generate electric. The grid has actually reduced the number of shortages scares since wind has ramped up.



In the post I responded to you mentioned cars but never mentioned motorhomes. I don't think I was being unreasonable in making that assumption. I wasn't meaning to be sarcastic I was saying it as I saw it. If someone buys a car or a motorhome with only 100 miles range knowing they need to go further then it is really silly and their own fault.

I have covered this many many times before but will do so again to save you going back and looking for it.

Currently we are supply side constrained on batteries. So a van manufacturer given a fixed supply of batteries has a choice. Let's use 1,000KWh as an example. With this supply of batteries they can either make 20 x 50KWh vans for local use which is the biggest segment of the market. Or they can make 10 x 100KWh vans with a much longer range. As both vans will produce the same amount of profit they have a choice of selling 10 or 20 vans they will always go for 20 x 50KWh vans. This is why there are no long range vans currently being offered.

As battery supply increases as it will over the next 10 years leading up the 2030 ban, battery supply will increase and price will come down. In 10 years you can start looking for your electric motorhome.


Recycling technology for current use of lithium batteries is no good. Currently the mass quantity of lithium batteries are in 1,000's of form factors, are surrounded in plastic and are generally very small. These all make it very hard to recycle them. Phone, tablet and laptop batteries are hard to separate and to process.

EV batteries are different. They are larger format, very little if any plastic and in a limited range of form factors. Recycling will not only become economical but profitable. This is from the battery experts themselves. Also a battery that is at the end of it's life in an EV still has loads of capacity left in it and will be reused in storage system for another 10-25 years before recycling becomes an issue.

The bulk of a lithium battery is Aluminium and Copper with a bit of lithium and some other trace valuable elements. They are recyclable.



At the moment they are not a lot of use to anyone, because there aren't any and no one is going to build one until the new generation of vans with decent range get built.



Of course hydrogen is possible. FCEV is a fact. It is just not economical for the reasons I have also covered many times.
To produce hydrogen by electrolysis you would need 2-3 times the amount of electric than you would if you just charged a battery. If you think there will be issues generating enough electric for BEV then you should really look into the maths for FCEV's.
It still needs a battery
Hydrogen fuelling stations cost between $1M and $3M per filling point. VS $200,000 on average for a high speed charger for an EV. How many Hydrogen fuelling stations would we need?
FCEV are no cheaper than BEV.

Hydrogen has one advantage and that is that you can refill in 5 minutes. By 2030 expect high power chargers and batteries capable of this and all of a sudden hydrogen has no advantages and ALL of the problems. Not to mention the first time one goes boom it is going to scare a lot of people off.

As for Batteries not being suitable for heavy trucking. Try telling Tesla that who are launching a 600 mile class 8 truck in the US next year. If they can do it cost effectively then it won't be long before others follow suite.


That is a perfectly rational position to take. No one is saying that you need to rush out and buy an EV now, or even in 2030. There will still be second hand ICE cars will into the mid 2040's.

Braintree Gridserv just cost £4.86Million, I also have the ability to generate Hydrogen at home from both Solar and Mains admittedly at this time its only a small amount but it is possible, whilst you also claim Hydrogen is Sooo expensive the market is expecting the cost to drop by 20-40% you will also see in this article an expectation that alternate Hydrogen powered vehicles will exist so again don't be too sure that they won't its just like someone back in the 1980's saying Battery powered cars will never exist !

I know I can be annoying but so can denying an alternative fuel source is probably coming down the line and would actually be quite good for MoHo's and how they are used

 

[gus-lopez]

wind your neck in gus, the taxpayer does not subsidize the electricity I use in my EV

If you're Not paying then who is? Council,government,company,tax deductible?? All are paid for by taxpayers .

Told the wife she will have to walk the 4 miles to work from now on and she won't be able to come home for lunch because a sad bloke on the internet says so, her reply was tell him to do one.

If she was as fit as glenn2926 that would be about 48minutes.

but delving in to the situation more deeply it is a scenario that can happen any time, and I would

You're wasting your time. The is an over supplied abundance of electricity. They don't know What to do with it.

 

[Gromett]

Not sure you are correct Gromett, your posts make it clear that you love Musk and Tesla however other bight physicists and engineers are lurking in their Bat caves working on other stuff...technology is politically shaped, Musk gets all the press in the past when a rocket blew up its was marked as a fail, today Space X had a rocket blow up but the spin doctors claim it was a success what a weird media drivel world we live in....oh and those past failures meant success in the long run but its how the marketing teams spin stuff so don't be too sure that Hydrogen is not going to have a place with alternate fuelled vehicles.

I like what Tesla is doing. They are so far ahead of the competition in technology and didn't require the goverment to force them to do it. As for Musk. What is there not to like. With his SpaceX, Tesla, Boring Company, OpenAI, Neuralink and possibly a few I have forgotten he is shaking up multiple industries and making them raise their game.

As for rockets, it is all about context. His initial failures on the falcon 1 could have been an end to the company and they weren't even breaking new ground then. The current explosion was caused by a minor fault that will be fixed in SN9. It is all about context not marketing spin stuff.

Cummins, Navistar to Develop hydrogen fuel Cell-powered heavy truck

A closer look at Hydrogen fuelled trucks

Kenworth hydrogen-powered truck achieve landmark milestone

Hydrogen-powered roadsweepers to clean up Aberdeen's air

Because none of them believe that BEV can handle the long distance stuff. For some extreme heavy duty / ultra long range stuff or in remote areas they will be right. But for the bulk of transport a truck with 300 miles is enough, a truck with 600 miles would cover most use cases today and that is coming out soon.

Hydrogen train runs on UK railway for the first time

I have said this multiple times in the past. There is a place for hydrogen. Long distance train travel in inaccessible regions, some shipping, energy storage, a replacement for natural gas in some home heating systems and many more. I just don't believe that it is economical or practical or desirable for cars, light vans and low range trucking. I don't expect to see hydrogen fuel stations blanketing the country like the current diesel/petrol stations do.

AA puts emergency refuelling van to the test

And? preparing for any eventuality makes sense. However, they do say in the article "but it does highlight the need for more refuelling infrastructure if hydrogen is to take off in the UK.” which is kind of one of the points i was making above.

 

[Gromett]

Braintree Gridserv just cost £4.86Million, I also have the ability to generate Hydrogen at home from both Solar and Mains admittedly at this time its only a small amount but it is possible, whilst you also claim Hydrogen is Sooo expensive the market is expecting the cost to drop by 20-40% you will also see in this article an expectation that alternate Hydrogen powered vehicles will exist so again don't be too sure that they won't its just like someone back in the 1980's saying Battery powered cars will never exist !

I know I can be annoying but so can denying an alternative fuel source is probably coming down the line and would actually be quite good for MoHo's and how they are used

That grid serve was £5m for 36 charge points, A large solar farm, a local solar canopy, a 6GWh storage system and a mini shopping centre. That £5m was well spent I think. £5M would get you 2-3 hydrogen filling points if you were lucky.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[tonyidle]

Nope, that is a myth. There is no limit to how much solar power you can install.

How much Solar PV can I have on my roof? Read the Naked Solar blog

Have you considered adding more panels to your existing solar PV array? Not all homes are limited to how much they are allowed by the local DNO. We can help

nakedsolar.co.uk

True. 4kW is (or was when I installed mine 10 or so years ago) the max that can / could be connected to the grid.

 

[glenn2926]

If you're Not paying then who is? Council,government,company,tax deductible?? All are paid for by taxpayers .

If she was as fit as glenn2926 that would be about 48minutes.

You're wasting your time. The is an over supplied abundance of electricity. They don't know What to do with it.

Good maths gus, that’s my target speed.

 

[Gromett]

so don't be too sure that Hydrogen is not going to have a place with alternate fuelled vehicles.

I know all the arguments against hydrogen being a better solution than BEVs, and was thinking about doing a write up with graphics to explain it. I then thought we can't be unique on here in having this most interesting debate. So I did a quick search and watched a few videos. This one is the best one I have found so far.

Can I ask that you give it a full watch please?

 

[Gromett]

Braintree Gridserv just cost £4.86Million, I also have the ability to generate Hydrogen at home from both Solar and Mains admittedly at this time its only a small amount but it is possible, whilst you also claim Hydrogen is Sooo expensive the market is expecting the cost to drop by 20-40% you will also see in this article an expectation that alternate Hydrogen powered vehicles will exist so again don't be too sure that they won't its just like someone back in the 1980's saying Battery powered cars will never exist !

I know I can be annoying but so can denying an alternative fuel source is probably coming down the line and would actually be quite good for MoHo's and how they are used

Hydrogen news.

The new Mirai has launched. $48,000. This article covers the details and some salient points.

The New, All New, Really New Toyota Mirai - It's NEW! - CleanTechnica

The second generation Toyota Mirai is here and features 30% more range, autonomous parking, and a wider rear seat. Woo hoo!

cleantechnica.com

And Bosch has just divested a big chunk of it's shareholding with Hydrogen Fuel cell trucking company Nikola. Although the Iveco built Nikola Tre truck is still expected in 2023.
Nikola was making HUGE claims about it's trucks, it's all new technology and it's plans. Over the last year these have all pretty much collapsed. They are now buying their Fuel cells and Batteries from GM and getting other people to build the trucks for them.

Bosch Steps Back from its investment in Nikola Motor

German tech supplier Bosch steps back from its investment in Nikola Motor not too long after General Motors did the same thing!

cleantechnica.com

 

[Gromett]

For those concerned about the need to upgrades local grid supply to support chargers. I have previously mentioned battery backed chargers and this is now coming to the UK (Tesla already does this).

FreeWire Slides Into UK - CleanTechnica

It's been a couple of months since we've covered FreeWire, and 5 years since we first covered it, but now we have our first news about the company leaping across the pond.

cleantechnica.com

These have a battery as part of the install. When a car is not being charged they charge the internal battery. This can then be used in one of two ways. It can be used to limit the draw on the grid to prevent high usage charges or it can be used in combination with the grid to boost the charge rate.

For example if the charger supply is rated at 100KW but boostable to 200KW with a penalty charge the battery would allow them to charge up at 100KW when no car is on charge. Then when a more powerful car needs to be charged they could push out up to 300KW into the car with only 100KW coming from the grid and 200KW coming from the battery. Speeding up the charge rate to the car, reducing the impact on the grid and cutting costs.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Coolcats]

I know all the arguments against hydrogen being a better solution than BEVs, and was thinking about doing a write up with graphics to explain it. I then thought we can't be unique on here in having this most interesting debate. So I did a quick search and watched a few videos. This one is the best one I have found so far.

Can I ask that you give it a full watch please?

This will sound rude Gromett and it really is not meant to be, because that is not research, I would rather read academic research and peer reviewed papers along with viewing what commercially is emerging than be entertained by the Disney Channel. So lets start with UCL which is just one of a number of global universities that are researching and developing alternative fuels, then have a peek at H2FC Supergen research or maybe University of New South Wales At some point Batteries will also become obsolete as the energy could be stored in Graphene......thats right Graphene the emerging technology that has the potential to be an immensely strong material but ultra light and thing yet could also be a source of energy storage. Musk used Batteries as they were emergent (for example panasonic et.al.) and commercially viable, had Hydrogen been at the same readiness he would have thrown his and investors money behind that.

On a lighter note anyone like a Hydrogen BBQ

Hydrogen is sooo expensive or is it? Hydrogen storage technology in world-first application of its kind

"Solid state hydrogen technology will be installed to store hydrogen in 20-foot containers with an energy density of 17MWh. This will be located at the community solar farm at Manilla, near Tamworth, and will be a first of this kind in the world in terms of scale."

Battery powered vehicles clearly have a place as we change from ICE power, there is no argument about that. However there are other forms of alternate energy emerging including Hydrogen that will power vehicles. Musk does not hold the key to innovation he is a great businessman who has taken market advantage of emerging tech and will continue to do so, others have and will do the same.

I am not posting on this anymore as you will just keep digging about why it won't happen yet the Labs and other commercial interests indicate otherwise (which is why You Tube is great for entertainment).

 

[Gromett]

This will sound rude Gromett and it really is not meant to be, because that is not research, I would rather read academic research and peer reviewed papers along with viewing what commercially is emerging than be entertained by the Disney Channel. So lets start with UCL which is just one of a number of global universities that are researching and developing alternative fuels, then have a peek at H2FC Supergen research or maybe University of New South Wales At some point Batteries will also become obsolete as the energy could be stored in Graphene......thats right Graphene the emerging technology that has the potential to be an immensely strong material but ultra light and thing yet could also be a source of energy storage. Musk used Batteries as they were emergent (for example panasonic et.al.) and commercially viable, had Hydrogen been at the same readiness he would have thrown his and investors money behind that.

On a lighter note anyone like a Hydrogen BBQ

Hydrogen is sooo expensive or is it? Hydrogen storage technology in world-first application of its kind

"Solid state hydrogen technology will be installed to store hydrogen in 20-foot containers with an energy density of 17MWh. This will be located at the community solar farm at Manilla, near Tamworth, and will be a first of this kind in the world in terms of scale."

Battery powered vehicles clearly have a place as we change from ICE power, there is no argument about that. However there are other forms of alternate energy emerging including Hydrogen that will power vehicles. Musk does not hold the key to innovation he is a great businessman who has taken market advantage of emerging tech and will continue to do so, others have and will do the same.

I am not posting on this anymore as you will just keep digging about why it won't happen yet the Labs and other commercial interests indicate otherwise (which is why You Tube is great for entertainment).

Keep posting about universities and research projects all you want. In the commercial and real world hydrogen just can't work for personal transport.

The video I linked to gives facts, not research or potential future options. Tell me after watching the video which bit he got wrong and why?

You point at UCL, New south wales etc etc. While this research is valuable and ongoing, the real world is moving on.

Look at the research being done into Li batteries. in the next 3 years Tesla is ramping up production of their new cells which are 50% cheaper and 50% more energy dense. This raises the bar even higher for hydrogen.

As for your hydrogen storage in a container. That is interesting but it required a grant of $3.5M. H2Store has a history of great ideas that come to nothing. They previously invested in storing hydrogen in old gas fields and disused wells. That was from 2012. I thought they sounded familiar so had to check. They got their funding in 2019 and had this to say at the time.

The team hopes to have a 5 kW home storage system prototype ready by the end of 2019 and a product on the market late in 2020.

Seems they are already falling behind target. It is also not clear if that 17MWh is per container or for the project as a whole.

I had a quick look to what chemistry they are using... Rather than doing the deep research myself I tripped over this.

This is not me saying this. I did check the numbers on MgH2 and they check out.

materials such as magnesium hydride (MgH2) and lithium borohydride (LiBH4) capable of storing hydrogen.


With all of these things you need energy to either to get the hydrogen in, or to get it out again. I looked up MgH2 and found that the heat of formation is somewhere around Broken Link Removed, and the energy required to get hydrogen back out is more like Broken Link Removed. To put that into perspective, the heat of combustion of H2 is only 286 kJ/mol; it takes roughly half of your hydrogen to generate the heat to free it from magnesium hydride. How you do this with large tanks of storage medium is problematic; heating the whole thing means high losses, while extracting and processing a stream of stuff in a much smaller heated volume means a lot of complications in handling.
Then there are resource constraints. Using lithium anything comes into competition with lithium battery production.
Maybe there are other hydride materials that don't have such high energy requirements, but the ones I've heard of are things like lanthanum nickel. Lanthanum is a rare earth, one of those elements that's difficult and dirty to separate from the rest of its chemical family. To put it bluntly, they have been trying to make the renewable hydrogen economy a thing for at least 4 decades, and if there were any slam dunks they probably would have been discovered years and years ago.

Have you read this?

Recent advances on the thermal destabilization of Mg-based hydrogen storage materials - RSC Advances (RSC Publishing) DOI:10.1039/C8RA05596C

Even with the improvements in nano structure and composite materials you don't improve the round trip efficiency to anything close to the Li battery method. If it reached 50% efficiency that would brilliant but still not on a par with lithium batteries.

 

[Gromett]

This will sound rude Gromett and it really is not meant to be, because that is not research, I would rather read academic research and peer reviewed papers along with viewing what commercially is emerging than be entertained by the Disney Channel. So lets start with UCL which is just one of a number of global universities that are researching and developing alternative fuels, then have a peek at H2FC Supergen research or maybe University of New South Wales At some point Batteries will also become obsolete as the energy could be stored in Graphene......thats right Graphene the emerging technology that has the potential to be an immensely strong material but ultra light and thing yet could also be a source of energy storage. Musk used Batteries as they were emergent (for example panasonic et.al.) and commercially viable, had Hydrogen been at the same readiness he would have thrown his and investors money behind that.

On a lighter note anyone like a Hydrogen BBQ

Hydrogen is sooo expensive or is it? Hydrogen storage technology in world-first application of its kind

"Solid state hydrogen technology will be installed to store hydrogen in 20-foot containers with an energy density of 17MWh. This will be located at the community solar farm at Manilla, near Tamworth, and will be a first of this kind in the world in terms of scale."

Battery powered vehicles clearly have a place as we change from ICE power, there is no argument about that. However there are other forms of alternate energy emerging including Hydrogen that will power vehicles. Musk does not hold the key to innovation he is a great businessman who has taken market advantage of emerging tech and will continue to do so, others have and will do the same.

I am not posting on this anymore as you will just keep digging about why it won't happen yet the Labs and other commercial interests indicate otherwise (which is why You Tube is great for entertainment).

PS: you changed the subject there. I was saying hydrogen is no use for mass personal transport such as cars. Hydrogen does have a place in the grid and for heating. I have never denied that.

Come back to the original topic about hydrogen to power cars which is what that video I linked to was about.

 

[Coolcats]

PS: you changed the subject there. I was saying hydrogen is no use for mass personal transport such as cars. Hydrogen does have a place in the grid and for heating. I have never denied that.

Come back to the original topic about hydrogen to power cars which is what that video I linked to was about.

Read the academic work It does cover light transport including a Hydrogen powered Bike ( and BBQ)

 

[Gromett]

Read the academic work It does cover light transport including a Hydrogen powered Bike ( and BBQ)

You are avoiding the points I made and are not providing any counters to them.

1. Hydrogen round trip is 2-3 times less efficient than batteries meaning you need 2-3 times more electric for cars/vans optimistically.
2. Hydrogen filling stations cost $1m-$3m to build. Where is this investment going to come from?
3. People are not going to buy Hydrogen cars until there is a filling infrastructure, are they?
4. Investors are not going to invest in a comprehensive hydrogen filling station network until there are enough cars to make a return on.
5. Hydrogen is more expensive than batteries. The cars are more expensive and they are more expensive to fuel.
6. Hydrogen would be better used in grid scale storage, heavy industry and limited home heating.

Don't just say look at the academic work. Please respond to the points above. The point we disagree on is simply this, I say hydrogen will never be the fuel for the mass car market, you seem to think it will. I have told you why I think what I do. How about you rebut my points and explain why you think I am wrong.

I am not going to wander off in all directions anymore until you have nailed your flag firmly to the mast on my above points.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[duane0001]

Here we go Gromett,
All new platform, I will be really interested in one of these for my self and for the fleet

Mercedes-Benz Vans Announces Next-Generation eSprinter

Mercedes-Benz Vans announced the next-generation of the all-electric eSprinter large van, which will be based on the newly developed Electric Versatility Platform.

www.google.co.uk

 

[Gromett]

Here we go Gromett,
All new platform, I will be really interested in one of these for my self and for the fleet

Mercedes-Benz Vans Announces Next-Generation eSprinter

Mercedes-Benz Vans announced the next-generation of the all-electric eSprinter large van, which will be based on the newly developed Electric Versatility Platform.

www.google.co.uk

I will look at this with interest, Battery size and price will be the first thing I look at.

I wouldn't touch a Merc if you paid me though, so it will just be for curiosity. Interesting though.

 

[duane0001]

I will look at this with interest, Battery size and price will be the first thing I look at.

I wouldn't touch a Merc if you paid me though, so it will just be for curiosity. Interesting though.

Mercedes especially with the 651 engines from 2014 are the only vans I trust, but each to their own. I know that when all vans are electric they will mostly be the same running gear give or take a little tweak here and there, reliability shouldn’t be a massive issue

 

[Coolcats]

You are avoiding the points I made and are not providing any counters to them.

1. Hydrogen round trip is 2-3 times less efficient than batteries meaning you need 2-3 times more electric for cars/vans optimistically.
2. Hydrogen filling stations cost $1m-$3m to build. Where is this investment going to come from?
3. People are not going to buy Hydrogen cars until there is a filling infrastructure, are they?
4. Investors are not going to invest in a comprehensive hydrogen filling station network until there are enough cars to make a return on.
5. Hydrogen is more expensive than batteries. The cars are more expensive and they are more expensive to fuel.
6. Hydrogen would be better used in grid scale storage, heavy industry and limited home heating.

Don't just say look at the academic work. Please respond to the points above. The point we disagree on is simply this, I say hydrogen will never be the fuel for the mass car market, you seem to think it will. I have told you why I think what I do. How about you rebut my points and explain why you think I am wrong.

I am not going to wander off in all directions anymore until you have nailed your flag firmly to the mast on my above points.

1) Maybe maybe not
2) The investment could come from the same type of investment any new technology come from (Musk accessed this)
3) Clearly not but with Trucks coming down the line I strongly suspect a filling station will be with you in the next 10 years
4) Incorrect there is always seeding investment on new technologies so it is not inconceivable this would happen (see point 2)
5) Hydrogen production is coming down in cost as per a previous post you have not read
6) Possibly so but other uses for Hydrogen will be applied

I am not buying an EV or alternate fuel vehicle for at least 3-5 years, I started saying that Hydrogen could be a a possibility for MoHo's the industry is looking at and investing in Hydrogen for haulage and therefore it is quite feasible Hydrogen will be an option in the next 10 years.

Musk does his research uses investors (High Risk) money against emerging researched technology, it is this approach that will change and shape the future. There are also technologies that are known will have to exist before the next realisation of the next technological step

Nothing in Life is certain except change Taxes and death

 

[Gromett]

1) Maybe maybe not
2) The investment could come from the same type of investment any new technology come from (Musk accessed this)
3) Clearly not but with Trucks coming down the line I strongly suspect a filling station will be with you in the next 10 years
4) Incorrect there is always seeding investment on new technologies so it is not inconceivable this would happen (see point 2)
5) Hydrogen production is coming down in cost as per a previous post you have not read
6) Possibly so but other uses for Hydrogen will be applied

I am not buying an EV or alternate fuel vehicle for at least 3-5 years, I started saying that Hydrogen could be a a possibility for MoHo's the industry is looking at and investing in Hydrogen for haulage and therefore it is quite feasible Hydrogen will be an option in the next 10 years.

Musk does his research uses investors (High Risk) money against emerging researched technology, it is this approach that will change and shape the future. There are also technologies that are known will have to exist before the next realisation of the next technological step

Nothing in Life is certain except change Taxes and death

1) There is no maybe about this. It is core/basic physics...
2) Suggest one route to it? An investor looks for profits from their investment. Show me the route to profit from investing in Hydrogen filling stations when there are no Hydrogen cars on the road and few if any manufacturers developing them?
3) So you are basing this on trucks not being able to operate on batteries? But you are still left with the same catch 22 situation. Which truck company is going to invest in £200,000 FCEV trucks then £1M-£2M to build a single refuelling stations vs batteries?
4) Seeding investment is to see if something works not to roll out a large network. The seeding stage happened years ago. We are not going to see a mass roll out of Hydrogen fuelling stations until there is a demand for their use. Where is the demand going to come from?
5) You haven't listened to what I have said have you. It takes 2-3 times the electricity to make enough hydrogen vs direct charging a battery. This is physics. Economics states that at best you could get it to double the price due to wholesale purchase of overnight electric.
6) There are lots of uses for hydrogen, I have not said otherwise. The list I gave was not an exhaustive list. My point is that hydrogen is not suitable for cars and light vans, and for the bulk of the market for trucks.

I will restate this. It takes 2-3 times the amount of electric to run a hydrogen car... You not only have to build this excess electric generation capacity, you then throw away 2/3rds of the electric in the process. This is physics, there is no maybe, maybe not about it.
So hydrogen will ALWAYS be more expensive than just direct charging a battery. You seem to be in denial about this basic fact?

The second point is about filling stations. If you had £1M and you wanted to invest it to make for a brilliant retirement in 20 years. Would you currently invest in a company building out a hydrogen filling station network, or would you invest in one building out an EV charging network?
I presume you are nobodies fool, so you would invest in the EV charging network? So if you won't, then who will and why? Show me how the hydrogen filling station investor is going to get their money back and profit to boot? OK, lets go from the other end. You live in the north of England and there is no hydrogen filling station for 100's of miles. Do you buy an EV which you can charge at home, or do you buy hydrogen FCEV with nowhere to fill it? This in a nutshell is the hydrogen economics catch 22 issue. Without a market no one will build the filling stations, without the filling stations no one will buy a hydrogen car.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gromett]

Here is the kicker for you Coolcats

I am hesitant to make too much of this, but quantumscape have finally released test figures for their solid state cells. I am a sceptic of solid state cells, because much has been promised about them in the past. However, physics doesn't preclude it from being possible.

The fact that JB Straubel is on the board and is excited about this is why I am showing such keen interest. They also have VW amongst others on board as partners and investors.

They are targetting 15 minute charge times, but have tested without failure to 2 minute charge times in the lab.
They are looking at double the density of the best performing battery today.
They are looking at extremely good performance at low temperatures and have tested down to -25°C
Their lifespan and safety also looks impressive.



From watching this video, I suspect in 3-5 years if it holds up they will be in mass production. VW will take a lead over Tesla in the budget car market until Tesla can either license the specific tech or develop it's own version.
We will see the cost of EV's come down below ICE cars for the first time and the range will easily blow top end current EV's out of the water. This will all be within the next 3-5 years.. Do you think hydrogen will have any place in that market considering Tesla is already going into production with a 600 mile truck? With these cells they could do 1,000 mile trucks easily and actually have a better payload than a conventional ICE truck.

I am still hesitant to call this a done deal. It is still in pre-production stages. But they have working cells that have been tested by VW who found them to perform as stated. So, it is all down to how easy they are to manufacture consistently. There is a good chance this will turn out to be the next revolution in Lithium batteries.

 

[DIY campervan]

No one is forcing you to sell your jag so nothing changes there.

What's with the batteries you have to rent thing? Only a few manufacturers do this and it is optional. Most sell the car with the battery.

Your camping capers are not ruined. Keep doing what you do now until the technology catches up.

It is 5 years difference and you can still buy a hybrid in those 5 years after the ban. So that leaves 5 years gap. Not a hardship really. I suspect Brexit will have more of an impact than the ban on new ICE cars in 2030.

Are you telling me because china isn't doing enough we shouldn't either?

Your retirement is not ruined. You may need to make some adjustments but it is not ruined.

I hope your right, i’m very sceptical. All i ask is to leave it at 2040. Bringing it forward ten years isn't cricket.

 

[Gromett]

Coolcats
Not sure if you have heard about this.

Seems like Toyota are about to unveil an EV with a 10 minute charging time due to solid state batteries. If true this could be a big one. Not convinced yet about solid state batteries, but there does seem to be a bit of a thing about them at the moment and Toyota is no fly by night startup trying to suck in investor funds with hype.

Toyota to unveil electric car with 10-min fast-charging solid-state battery next year

A new report suggests that Toyota is going to unveil an electric car with a new solid-state battery that enables...

electrek.co

I am comfortable in my prediction of 5-10 minute charge times by 2030 and as this is hydrogens only advantage whacks the final nail in the coffin for it in cars, light vans and short-medium range trucking.

Still want to put your pension fund into a hydrogen refuelling network?

 

[Gromett]

Wow, Solid state batteries really are in the news this week. Think it might be because of Quantumscape going public, but still...

Solid State Batteries - They're Everywhere! They're Everywhere! - CleanTechnica

Suddenly, news reports about solid state batteries are everywhere, which surely suggests progress is being made toward incorporating them into production cars in the near future.

cleantechnica.com

Ford/BMW following on from the Toyota post previously.

 

[Coolcats]

1) There is no maybe about this. It is core/basic physics...

OK Gromett Definitions are needed the comment made makes it all seem so simple yet it is far from so, whatever alternate energy system is being used a deep understanding both Physics and Chemistry is required for R&D this comes primarily from research and then spun out commercially. This is in addition to Material Science nothing about alternative fuels is basic other than how something may be described which is normally done by an expert in a field that simplifies something that is complex to make it understandable by the masses (me included), I am not a Chemist, Physicist or Material Scientist and i do not think you are either but have expertise and qualifications in other areas.

The definitions:

a) Chemistry: The science of the composition, structure, properties, and reactions of matter, especially of atomic and molecular systems.

b) Physics: The scientific study of matter and energy and the effect that they have on each other

c) Material Science: The interdisciplinary field of materials science, also commonly termed materials science and engineering, is the design and discovery of new materials, particularly solids.

So suddenly this starts looking more complex which I am sure you would agree, as you also agree that Hydrogen can be used as an energy source it means it can be used for transport which has also been proved, the view your holding is that Batteries are king....maybe, maybe not. We have Petrol, Diesel, LPG, electric and hydrogen powered cars Lorries trains and power plants.

Its a Mix and the world is a better place for not just having one form of power lets see what the future holds my belief is that Hydrogen will have a place, market forces (politics and investors) will influence what is available how and when.

Its all complex and as I say nothing is forever not even Batteries

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}