Urgent help needed, (1 Viewer)

[michelle wilson 76]

Hi guys , we have recently purchased a 2004 eura mobil 2.8 jtd fiat ducato base . We are due to leave the UK on Friday, heading for the south of spain , previous owner had it sat in a field for god knows how long.
The Vehicle has been serviced , and had a new mot when we bought it . BUT whilst husband was taking it for a drive recently , he noticed that whilst braking, he is getting juddering through the brake pedal.
The whole of the underneath has been stripped and cleaned , numerous times trying to find the issue.
We have now replaced the suspension , brake shoes , discs , pads, drums , brakes have been bled a couple of times now , and a diagnostic test picked up no faults on the van or abs unit, we are now about to replace the master cylinder , in a desperate attempt to try and save our holiday ,and sanity .
I was wondering if anyone has had any similar problems , or any suggestions as to the cause ..

 

[michelle wilson 76]

Just thinking out loud, although the discs and pads are new, could they be A) the wring parts (unlikely i know) or B) warped discs (would pretty obvious on new ones) but I’d never assume new parts being not at fault is my logic.

Funny you should say that , as the first set of pads we were sold were the wrong ones . We have stripped of everything underneath and checked it all with a dti gauge, just incase of any imperfections.

 

[donkey]

Are the ABS reluctor rings visible? On some vehicles they are inside the hubs. If they are visible, then jack up wheels and critically examine the rings. You are looking for damage, broken teeth, excessive corrosion or the most likely one-cracked/split reluctor ring.

Geoff

 

[michelle wilson 76]

Are the ABS reluctor rings visible? On some vehicles they are inside the hubs. If they are visible, then jack up wheels and critically examine the rings. You are looking for damage, broken teeth, excessive corrosion or the most likely one-cracked/split reluctor ring.

Geoff

Thankyou , I think they were inspected yesterday, but I will get them to check again

 

[Neil n Pat]

For what it is worth. My 2009 ducato has just had all the braking system overhauled with new discs and pads. Speaking to the garage owner he told me of a case where he had completed the same exercise on a previous Ducato but older. The owner had the same issue with juddering brakes like yourself after the works. After a lot of head scratching it was found the part number for the replacement discs was correct but after further inspection the discs mounting holes where around 1mm larger than the original. After ordering another set with the same spec as the original worn fitted ones the juddering never manifested itself.

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[michelle wilson 76]

For what it is worth. My 2009 ducato has just had all the braking system overhauled with new discs and pads. Speaking to the garage owner he told me of a case where he had completed the same exercise on a previous Ducato but older. The owner had the same issue with juddering brakes like yourself after the works. After a lot of head scratching it was found the part number for the replacement discs was correct but after further inspection the discs mounting holes where around 1mm larger than the original. After ordering another set with the same spec as the original worn fitted ones the juddering never manifested itself.

Hi , thankyou for your reply . Funny enough we were sold the wrong pads first time, luckily it was spotted straight away , and they were replaced

 

[Landy Andy]

Do you have the old discs still? If so put them on for a brief road test.

 

[michelle wilson 76]

Good morning , thankyou for your reply, the mh was juddering before we changed everything , after each component change , it was taken for a test drive , so far nothing has changed .

 

[olley]

I had that on a ford, it came on suddenly turned it was the ABS, the sensor plate on one of the rear wheels had rusted through its mounting holes, so everytime you braked the ABS thought one wheel was skidding.
Brakes still worked but juddered like mad.

 

[Shandyman]

Have the rear discs and pads been checked assuming it has discs on the rear. The reason I ask is my car recently had a brake judder through the pedal after changing the front disc, pads, calipers etc the judder was still there, it turned out to be a rear disc and sticking caliper.

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[MisterB]

It could be the rings that sense the breaking and apply the ABS. I think they're called reluctor rings or something similar. If there's a tooth missing or the ring is cracked then when you break it tells the braking system you're braking hard and so it applies the ABS.

The most common symptom of a bad ABS ring is an illuminated ABS light on the dashboard. You may also notice signs like a pulsating brake pedal while braking at lower speeds. If you drive on slippery surfaces, you may notice that there is no ABS function. You can experience many strange symptoms when one of the ABS rings starts to dysfunction.

 

[JinxJetJock]

Hi guys , we have recently purchased a 2004 eura mobil 2.8 jtd fiat ducato base . We are due to leave the UK on Friday, heading for the south of spain , previous owner had it sat in a field for god knows how long.
The Vehicle has been serviced , and had a new mot when we bought it . BUT whilst husband was taking it for a drive recently , he noticed that whilst braking, he is getting juddering through the brake pedal.
The whole of the underneath has been stripped and cleaned , numerous times trying to find the issue.
We have now replaced the suspension , brake shoes , discs , pads, drums , brakes have been bled a couple of times now , and a diagnostic test picked up no faults on the van or abs unit, we are now about to replace the master cylinder , in a desperate attempt to try and save our holiday ,and sanity .
I was wondering if anyone has had any similar problems , or any suggestions as to the cause ..

Use a 'rolling road' as used for brake testing to identify the wheel/brake unit causing the problem.

 

[Clive Beeza]

Hi guys , we have recently purchased a 2004 eura mobil 2.8 jtd fiat ducato base . We are due to leave the UK on Friday, heading for the south of spain , previous owner had it sat in a field for god knows how long.
The Vehicle has been serviced , and had a new mot when we bought it . BUT whilst husband was taking it for a drive recently , he noticed that whilst braking, he is getting juddering through the brake pedal.
The whole of the underneath has been stripped and cleaned , numerous times trying to find the issue.
We have now replaced the suspension , brake shoes , discs , pads, drums , brakes have been bled a couple of times now , and a diagnostic test picked up no faults on the van or abs unit, we are now about to replace the master cylinder , in a desperate attempt to try and save our holiday ,and sanity .
I was wondering if anyone has had any similar problems , or any suggestions as to the cause ..

Seems every likely culprit has been checked /serviced
suggest you go to a MOT station, Idealy one with a pit
ask them to run the brake test rollers on the front and back wheels,
it will indicate which wheels are causing the issue,
and if the station has a pit, dependant on their set up
they may be able to inspect the underneath, whilst the wheels are on the rollers
and being mechanics would very likely spot your problem.

let us all know what the cause was
when you get it sorted, good luck

 

[Gaddfly]

Hubby says have you pressure bled the brakes?

 

[michelle wilson 76]

Seems every likely culprit has been checked /serviced
suggest you go to a MOT station, Idealy one with a pit
ask them to run the brake test rollers on the front and back wheels,
it will indicate which wheels are causing the issue,
and if the station has a pit, dependant on their set up
they may be able to inspect the underneath, whilst the wheels are on the rollers
and being mechanics would very likely spot your problem.

Thankyou Clive, I'm currently trying to find a mot centre near me with a pit / rolling road.

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[michelle wilson 76]

Hubby says have you pressure bled the brakes?

Morning , yes they have been done twice ,

 

[Clive Beeza]

Were the new disc fully degrease with a solvent cleaner.
Any grease on the disc will cause it and the harder you brake the more it will judder.

as i read it all the work has been carriedvout by family and a friend
all mechanics, so all work (I assume) would have been done
without rushing and done properly.

 

[Clive Beeza]

Thankyou Clive, I'm currently trying to find a mot centre near me with a pit / rolling road.

or try a commercial vehicle ,test station

 

[michelle wilson 76]

as i read it all the work has been carriedvout by family and a friend
all mechanics, so all work (I assume) would have been done
without rushing and done properly.

Yes , there has been no rushing , this has been going on for weeks now . The underneath has been stripped numerous times , to check and double check.

 

[Fatboy]

Triggers Broom

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[Tio64]

Hi, sorry you're having such a job sorting this, what a pain.
I would repeat whats been said about the ABS. I don't know anything about how the system is fitted on these vehicles, but i know of one make of car where the rear ones are exposed, they corrode and split, creating a bigger gap between 2 'teeth' which confuses the system and can create a brake judder.
Also as someone previously mentioned, check the abs sensors - they can be a pain to remove sometimes on other cars as they corrode in place.
A 2004 vehicle will have older diagnostic capabilities. you mentioned having diagnostic checks carried out, do you know if the ABS system itself can be diagnostically checked and has it been done?
Very best of luck.

 

[Tio64]

Sorry, on my post above i stupidly missed out the words 'reluctor rings'. These look similar to a cog, the teeth of which is what the sensors use to determine if the wheels are rotating or not.
As said, i have known these rings corrode and split, confusing the system, but i don't know if this happens on the Ducato or not.

 

[L' Hobo]

Agree on the servicing of the callipers. Unless "replaced" is with a salvaged/refurbished part, the cost would (to me anyway) be substantial.

You can purchase slider kits from Coastal.

 

[L' Hobo]

I was hoping it would be something simple , at this rate were going for a complete rebuild

Do not get fixated just on the brakes, the suspension, tyres etc can also be the problem, in a situation like this, it might be worth getting another MOT?

 

[Zakattak]

Long shot but try maximum pressures on both front tires otherwise you have done everything I would have done, next move onto suspension rubber mounts and shockers. It does seem like the abs system is confused

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[RV72 SAM 🏴]

My opinion, been in motor trade last 40 years
Take the ABS Pump off and have it tested, plenty people around, as sound's like it'll have an internal fault, seals perished etc, as they don't like standing about

 

[jacobjohn]

Hi guys , we have recently purchased a 2004 eura mobil 2.8 jtd fiat ducato base . We are due to leave the UK on Friday, heading for the south of spain , previous owner had it sat in a field for god knows how long.
The Vehicle has been serviced , and had a new mot when we bought it . BUT whilst husband was taking it for a drive recently , he noticed that whilst braking, he is getting juddering through the brake pedal.
The whole of the underneath has been stripped and cleaned , numerous times trying to find the issue.
We have now replaced the suspension , brake shoes , discs , pads, drums , brakes have been bled a couple of times now , and a diagnostic test picked up no faults on the van or abs unit, we are now about to replace the master cylinder , in a desperate attempt to try and save our holiday ,and sanity .
I was wondering if anyone has had any similar problems , or any suggestions as to the cause ..

We had a vibration while accelerating, turned out to be a drive shaft.

 

[St3v3]

My opinion, been in motor trade last 40 years
Take the ABS Pump off and have it tested, plenty people around, as sound's like it'll have an internal fault, seals perished etc, as they don't like standing about

They said they have disabled ABS (fuse removed) and the fault persists.

 

[Burgo]

BUT whilst husband was taking it for a drive recently , he noticed that whilst braking, he is getting juddering through the brake pedal.

For my tuppence worth, Looking at the original post (copied above) the issue is only being felt through the brake pedal when braking. That would make me be thinking about either a deformed disk or a brake drum out of true making the brake line pressure rise and fall while braking. Or a faulty seal in the master cylinder causing fluid to pass back and the vacuum servo trying to compensate. Either could cause causing a “pumping“ feeling. If it was a wheel bearing making the disk run out of true that'd be easily spotted.

 

[Clive Beeza]

Hi guys , we have recently purchased a 2004 eura mobil 2.8 jtd fiat ducato base . We are due to leave the UK on Friday, heading for the south of spain , previous owner had it sat in a field for god knows how long.
The Vehicle has been serviced , and had a new mot when we bought it . BUT whilst husband was taking it for a drive recently , he noticed that whilst braking, he is getting juddering through the brake pedal.
The whole of the underneath has been stripped and cleaned , numerous times trying to find the issue.
We have now replaced the suspension , brake shoes , discs , pads, drums , brakes have been bled a couple of times now , and a diagnostic test picked up no faults on the van or abs unit, we are now about to replace the master cylinder , in a desperate attempt to try and save our holiday ,and sanity .
I was wondering if anyone has had any similar problems , or any suggestions as to the cause ..

Hi Michelle,
Some of the replies on here must be frightening you to death
do not get into a panic,
whatever the issue it can be found and sorted out
In your original post you say when you bought it, it had a new MOT
did you have the MOT carried out, or did the seller ?
was the brake judder present the first time it was ever driven after the MOT?
or did it appear after some miles of use
there must be next to no, mileage since the MOT
so ring the MOT station that issued the certificate
and ask if you can bring it back to them to be put on their rolling road brake tester
this is likely to be a fault that's developed since the van was tested
and is likely to end up being due to corrosion, after being in a field parked up for ages
a likely culprit as has been mentioned would be the ABS toothed gear ring
having corroded and lost a tooth or two, or even split and useless
I have seen both these senarios myself (not being clever)
just passing on experiences and trying to think it through and help

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[michelle wilson 76]

Sorry, on my post above i stupidly missed out the words 'reluctor rings'. These look similar to a cog, the teeth of which is what the sensors use to determine if the wheels are rotating or not.
As said, i have known these rings corrode and split, confusing the system, but i don't know if this happens on the Ducato or

Sorry, on my post above i stupidly missed out the words 'reluctor rings'. These look similar to a cog, the teeth of which is what the sensors use to determine if the wheels are rotating or not.
As said, i have known these rings corrode and split, confusing the system, but i don't know if this happens on the Ducato or not.

Hi , thankyou for your message , the reluctor rings have been checked, and they look fine. I will be questioning about the abs system check tomorrow.