Don't worry about motorhome payload (1 Viewer)

[haybal]

Hi Funsters,

We have been to look at 2 MH's today at the same dealership, we were told by the sales man if we needed anything just ask, he then left us to look around which was great. Every now and then someone came to check we were ok and to see if we needed any help, then I asked a question about usable payload and was told " Don't worry about payload most people run over weight with the amount of gear they carry.
This wasn't the response I was expecting, so when I ask that if there was an accident and the MH was over weight could that not invalidate the insurance his reply was "probably not".

would appreciate your thoughts on this please, this is our first MH we are looking to buy and want it all above board so to speak.

Cheers,
Barry and Hayley

 

[haybal]

Hope this isn't a silly question, how would you work out how much a tank of fuel and water would weigh?
If the dealer took it to a weigh bridge to get it weighed, he's not going to fill it with fuel and water first.
weighing people, bikes, and all the other gear is quite simple.

I did say I have lots to learn

 

[nicholsong]

Agree - but I do it the other way around - fill the van ready for a trip, all my cr@p, then weigh.
From that I know how much spare capacity I've got ( or how much I've got to take out).

Yes we can do that once we are owners, but the question was what to do when one is buying.

It has been suggested that one asks for a weighbridge certificate.

That is fine as long as one is present and knows what of the following was in the vehicle at weighbridge

Driver/Passengers

Quantity of fuel and water

Spare wheel

Second battery

No. of gas tanks - full or empty

Any other items being included in the sale.

Without being present the weighbridge certificate is useless if presented by a possible lying seller.

Geoff

 

[Arzedby]

When I purchased my Pilote (650c) two berth it had a quoted payload of 720kg on the GVW of 3500kg, although I never did get a definitive answer as to what the MIRO included. So having had a few additions; extra battery, solar panel, wind out awning I calculated it would be a bit lower. Soon after taking delivery I filled it up with most of our travelling gear, including bikes, 3/4 tank water (90lts) full fuel tank and two full gas bottles and went and had it weighed. I was pleased to find I was 170kg under the GVW although I only had 80kg spare on the rear axle. This is about as close as would want to be, so that I have a little leeway when on our travels. I can also run with less water if need be, especially as the water tank is over the rear axle. I was quite shocked therefore to see a new 4 berth van (British but I can't remember which converter it was), on display at the Lincoln Show last September which actually advertised it's payload at 80kg in the marketing material on the side of the van. This was a van priced over £50000 and I can only surmise that it can no way be fit for purpose. I assume it is aimed at buyers who have little or no knowledge of payload issues.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Hope this isn't a silly question, how would you work out how much a tank of fuel and water would weigh?

Never a silly question, especially before you buy.
In theory your water tank will have a known capacity, as will your fuel tank.
Water weighs 1kg/litre, diesel about 0.8kg/litre.
My van has a 100 litre water tank & a 90 litre fuel tank so full I should add 100kg+72kg...
...but I've discovered that I have to account an extra 15kg of water, in the boiler & pipework and an unknown weight for 15 litres of AdBlue (if full).
Couple of kilos of screenwash???

Sadly the published allowance for the driver is woefully inadequate at 70 or 75kg for me...

Nightmare

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[nicholsong]

Hope this isn't a silly question, how would you work out how much a tank of fuel and water would weigh?
If the dealer took it to a weigh bridge to get it weighed, he's not going to fill it with fuel and water first.
weighing people, bikes, and all the other gear is quite simple.

I did say I have lots to learn

Haybal

Our two posts above coincided and you are on the right track, most of which I pointed out in my post.

As for weight of water and fuel - water has a specifc gravity(Spg) of 1, so 100lts = 100kg. Diesel has roughly a Spg of 0.8, so 100lts = 80kg. So as long as you know the tank capacities the calculation is not difficult.

As you say a dealer is not going to fill it with fuel before weighing, but he could claim it was full of water, 'but had been drained after to prevent frost damage' - Yeah?

At least you seem to be taking it all in and learning. Keep at it - I have always said that research, and lots of it, pays rewards before buying, especially the first MH. I did and have a very good quality one bought second-hand with 16,000 miles at 1/3 of new price and we are so pleased with it we still have that first one 8+ years later.

Keep asking the questions.

Geoff

 

[Larrynwin]

Agreed but surely the dealer would be helping to remedy this for a prospective sale not just saying don’t worry most vans run overweight IMV poor salesman who is after his commission.not on

It seems a sale is far more important than the customer. Not nice when considering the potential consequences for the customer.

 

[haybal]

Never a silly question, especially before you buy.
In theory your water tank will have a known capacity, as will your fuel tank.
Water weighs 1kg/litre, diesel about 0.8kg/litre.
My van has a 100 litre water tank & a 90 litre fuel tank so full I should add 100kg+72kg...
...but I've discovered that I have to account an extra 15kg of water, in the boiler & pipework and an unknown weight for 15 litres of AdBlue (if full).
Couple of kilos of screenwash???

Sadly the published allowance for the driver is woefully inadequate at 70 or 75kg for me...

Nightmare

Oooh not as difficult to work out as I thought it was going to be, cheers

 

[haybal]

Haybal

Our two posts above coincided and you are on the right track, most of which I pointed out in my post.

As for weight of water and fuel - water has a specifc gravity(Spg) of 1, so 100lts = 100kg. Diesel has roughly a Spg of 0.8, so 100lts = 80kg. So as long as you know the tank capacities the calculation is not difficult.

As you say a dealer is not going to fill it with fuel before weighing, but he could claim it was full of water, 'but had been drained after to prevent frost damage' - Yeah?

At least you seem to be taking it all in and learning. Keep at it - I have always said that research, and lots of it, pays rewards before buying, especially the first MH. I did and have a very good quality one bought second-hand with 16,000 miles at 1/3 of new price and we are so pleased with it we still have that first one 8+ years later.

Keep asking the questions.

Geoff

Thanks for the info & encouragement Geoff, much appreciated.

 

[TerryL]

When we bought our Bolero we had covered every aspect we could think of (before we joined MHF) but payload wasn't one of them. When we found it, there were lots of added accessories, some heavy, with which we were delighted but nobody ever alluded to the potential loss of payload. We took it away quite happily and used it for a year or so before we learned about overweight. So a visit to a local weighbridge whilst loaded for our normal trip and, you guessed, we were 150kg over.

We could have got it down to 3500kg but not in a way satisfactory to us. So again following forum advice we went to SvTech and had it upgraded to the max. of 3850kg by fitting air assist on the rear and new, bigger tyres. I'm quite happy that we now always travel well within the limits but, knowing how easy it is to accumulate "stuff", I'm seriously considering another visit to the weighbridge.

Especially as VOSA (or whatever their current name is) can now do "remote" weight checks as well as spot checks. No doubt the authorities in other countries will catch on to another fund-raising opportunity in due course!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[haybal]

When we bought our Bolero we had covered every aspect we could think of (before we joined MHF) but payload wasn't one of them. When we found it, there were lots of added accessories, some heavy, with which we were delighted but nobody ever alluded to the potential loss of payload. We took it away quite happily and used it for a year or so before we learned about overweight. So a visit to a local weighbridge whilst loaded for our normal trip and, you guessed, we were 150kg over.

We could have got it down to 3500kg but not in a way satisfactory to us. So again following forum advice we went to SvTech and had it upgraded to the max. of 3850kg by fitting air assist on the rear and new, bigger tyres. I'm quite happy that we now always travel well within the limits but, knowing how easy it is to accumulate "stuff", I'm seriously considering another visit to the weighbridge.

Especially as VOSA (or whatever their current name is) can now do "remote" weight checks as well as spot checks. No doubt the authorities in other countries will catch on to another fund-raising opportunity in due course!

Are there any implications having a MH upgraded?

 

[Ivory55]

Speed limits are lower over 3500

 

[suavecarve]

Hi Barry & Hayley,
Sorry to hear of your bad experience, and one which we find happens all too often, and worringly, it's commonly only discovered after the buyers have driven off, and thought they better check the payload.
Manufacturer's MIRO (mass in running order) often has a 5% margin of error (in the small print of the brochure) which means on a 3500kg motorhome, the MIRO could be up to 150kgs higher (v rarely lower!!). In essence that's the weight of 2 people, and could contribute to rendering your MH useless for what you wanted it for, esp when you've added the extras you wanted, eg bike racks, awning, solar etc.
At SvTech, we recommend that everyone looking to buy a MH, asks for a weight ticket for that vehicle, to include the driver & half a tank of fuel. At least this gives you a base point to work from before you drive away, and you are well within your rights to walk away from the deal if the vehicle isn't fit for your purpose. Better to do it before you sign for it, than afterwards. We have direct experience of dealing with post-purchase payload arguments, and it isn't very pleasant for all concerned.
As Jim said, hopefully we will be offering MotorhomeFun members the chance to have their MH weighed on our weigh in motion pads (same as the DVSA use) at a few of the shows this year, ideally on the Thursday as members arrive. we will let you all know in due course.
Remember Weigh before you pay!

Nice to see you on here.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Speed limits are lower over 3500

Abroad... Not in the UK.

Driving licence & age restrictions... which 'may' affect resale value.

Costs - will cost a couple hundred to get it reclassified even if only a paper exercise. More if you have to make mechanical alterations.

But
...road tax is lower .

 

[two]

Hi Barry and welcome

You are one of the wiser ones, to be aware of payload. If your licence allows to to drive more than 3500kg you have much more flexibility, especially if your wallet is healthy. Layout is probably the most important thing, followed closely by payload. I’d be suspicious of any weighbridge ticket and assume that it would not include any water or a driver and probably very little fuel. Treat the figure as the unladen weight if anything at all.

Below 3500kg is going to be tight but still doable. You’ll need to apply more discipline in restricting what you take with you to essentials and not include the “just in case” items.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Late Starting]

I seem to remember that Speed limits alter after the unladen weight goes over. 3050 kg
Maybe somebody can verify this for me.
Cliff

 

[joka250]

I'm surprised that licence requirement has hardly been touched on. Many people are unaware that 3500 kgs and above require a C1 licence. I don't remember any dealer mentioning this when we first started looking for our motorhome. Between that and payload we could have been led into a dreadful situation. My background ensured I was well aware of these pitfalls, not everyone is. That is one of the big benefits of this forum. I am surprised but pleased at the number of long term members looking for their first motorhome.

 

[grumps147]

I find it all a mystery, I really do.
My van is a PVC, so a commercial load carrier, that's had some habitation stuff built in.

But given the space to move around in, I find it difficult to perceive that an identical van could be stuffed full of boxes, pallets or crates etc and not be overloaded.

Like this? .... see article for photo and information .. http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/w...ght-with-uber-heavy-load-on-the-a11-1-5054083

 

[Jands]

Ordered my 1st van, delivery in September, went for the 4400kg upgrade to ensure I would have the payload for a 125cc bike.
When initially looking and understanding dealers said I would be ok on a 3.5t van with 550kg payload, crunching the figures this would never happen, so the couple of thousand upgrade was a no brainer.
Still have to be carefully with load distribution not to over/underload the axials.
Think if I had took the advice from dealers I would of ended up with an unusable van, traiding it in after a few years to get to that mythical 3rd ideal MH, hope that after lots of research got it right first time.

 

[haybal]

Hi Barry and welcome

You are one of the wiser ones, to be aware of payload. If your licence allows to to drive more than 3500kg you have much more flexibility, especially if your wallet is healthy. Layout is probably the most important thing, followed closely by payload. I’d be suspicious of any weighbridge ticket and assume that it would not include any water or a driver and probably very little fuel. Treat the figure as the unladen weight if anything at all.

Below 3500kg is going to be tight but still doable. You’ll need to apply more discipline in restricting what you take with you to essentials and not include the “just in case” items.

Hi rogher

I only became aware of payload when we decided we would like a MH and joined this forum. upgrading the weight is possible as I have C1 entitlement, plus its not a mega amount of money to do so.

When we decide on a MH to buy I may ask for a trip to a weighbridge to be incorporated within the test drive, that way I would know exactly what was included in the weight ticket. Even if there was a charge I would be happy to pay it for piece of mind.

Is this something a dealer would be willing to do or do you think it's asking a bit much ?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Ivory55]

I guess it’s depending on how far away a public weigh bridge is and if it was in a say a quarry would he want his van taken there.

 

[Mack100]

I have one of these things that weigh your van one wheel at a time and are well under , we travel very light, but my son who is a mechanic and usually particular about keeping his van right won't even use it to try, he says he doesn't want to know, and save the worry if he knew he was over, a couple of mates say they aren't bothered either and don't know how heavy they are running.

Is your device one of these?


I've got one lurking about from our caravan days. We weighed our van in West London when we first bought it but in Surrey I can't find a weighbridge.

 

[haybal]

Is your device one of these?


I've got one lurking about from our caravan days. We weighed our van in West London when we first bought it but in Surrey I can't find a weighbridge.

How handy would they be to carry around with you when looking for a MH, you would know exactly what payload you have to play with there and then.

 

[Mack100]

How handy would they be to carry around with you when looking for a MH, you would know exactly what payload you have to play with there and then.

Could be a plan. I can't see why it wouldn't work.

 

[SpeedyDux]

There is a conflict between driver licence limits, what consumer's demand in their vehicles and physics.

My first van was an 04 coachbuilt which had a 3300 plate. I was always 200kgs under maximum.
Current van is a PVC, 16cms shorter, max weight 3500kgs which I'm right on.
So between the two, I've added 400kgs .

Dog (+25kg), extra battery, solar panel & a towbar... That doesn't add up to 400kgs surely .

So in a decade - are base vehicles getting heavier?

I suspect they are getting heavier, but I don't have accurate weights to support that.

Your point about current PVCs raises the question whether some PVCs on a chassis with a GVW of 3,300kg are fit for purpose. The available payloads may be insufficient once a few option packs and other extras have been fitted. 3,500kg should be a minimum GVW.

My manufacturer's brochure has a difference of 350kg between the MIRO of a 5.4m PVC and MIRO of a 6.4m PVC. The weight difference presumably reflects more steel and furniture in the longer van because the rest of the conversion including water tanks is almost identical.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I think most dealers would say the same thing, what other choice have they got when some manufacturers send out new vans that are already over weight when loaded with the simple basics.

Not the one I bought from. They understood the potential issue and discussed it knowledgeably. And offered to put it across a weighbridge for peace of mind

 

[two]

Hi rogher

I only became aware of payload when we decided we would like a MH and joined this forum. upgrading the weight is possible as I have C1 entitlement, plus its not a mega amount of money to do so.

When we decide on a MH to buy I may ask for a trip to a weighbridge to be incorporated within the test drive, that way I would know exactly what was included in the weight ticket. Even if there was a charge I would be happy to pay it for piece of mind.

Is this something a dealer would be willing to do or do you think it's asking a bit much ?

No harm in asking. I don't think that's too much. I did that with my last (new) van. It came in 15kg under the max stated unladen weight but could have been 285kg lighter if I'd been lucky. If a dealer wants to sell (and you are interested in buying) there should not be a problem getting it weighed.
Whatever weight you record, be sure you know what's on board at the time. How heavy was the driver, full were the tanks, number of batteries & gas cylinder types...
500kg of payload can disappear very quickly if a previous owner has gone overboard and added lots of 'tasty' accessories, so whatever is stated in a brochure should only be used as a very rough guide.
Being within the payload limit will give you peace of mind and better fuel consumption, but it would seem that there are many that don't bother or advise "do as I say". I'm not sure that I can believe the statement "80% are overweight". We seem to be surrounded by smoke 'n mirrors where practice and opinion are concerned.

 

[chaser]

Is your device one of these?


I've got one lurking about from our caravan days. We weighed our van in West London when we first bought it but in Surrey I can't find a weighbridge.

Yeah that's what I have, although some say they are not accurate I have found , provided you are on level concrete or similar they are within about 10 kg of a weighbridge

 

[gus-lopez]

Are there any implications having a MH upgraded?

Need a C1 licence + as the years go buy resale becomes harder as those with grand father rights die .

Your point about current PVCs raises the question whether some PVCs on a chassis with a GVW of 3,300kg are fit for purpose

Try it with 3.1 & 3.2 T on coachbuilts

3,500kg should be a minimum GVW.

 

[chaser]

Our motorhome , not the selfbuild is only 3300 but that also weighs in at less than 3000 all up.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[two]

How handy would they be to carry around with you when looking for a MH, you would know exactly what payload you have to play with there and then.

I have one of these. They only work on hard (level) surfaces, like concrete, so it may not be very practical in a dealer’s yard. I also found mine to be inconsistent but good as a guide. They won’t work on a twin rear wheel vehicle and there is an art to rolling over them without the driving wheels spitting it out behind if the surface is smooth (painted garage floor). One of the toys you acquire after you’ve got everything else. They ought to be recalibrated every couple of years. Cheaper to and easier visit a weighbridge overall.

I’d only check the physical the weight when I’ve come down to being close to purchase. Although important, the layout and other factors may decide before the actual payload comes into play.

When you do, get the weight at each axle with driver and passenger on board. You can more-or-less ignore the front axle, so long as it's under the maximum, because it’s unlikely you'll add more weight there. Look at the rear axle loading and subtract that from the rear axle maximum and that will be your effective payload. Remember to allow for fuel, gas and some water. You can assume that a dealer will have none of those on board.