Wheel bolts keep coming loose. Wrong size ?

[SJA42]

I thought owning a MH / PVC was meant to be fun !
Having stressed about buying new wheels and tyres for a while I have finally gone an bought them.

I moved from 15" steel wheels to 16" alloys but that has just given me a new headache - wheel bolts.

The alloys came with a set of M14 / 1.5mm - 33mm long black wheel bolts (and locking bolts) and having fitted the wheels on with these new bolts they just don't seem to stay tight.

I have fitted them using a torque wrench, set to the 160nm recommended by the supplier, but after pottering up and down the road they become loose and need at least one crank of the wrench to get them back to torque.

I assume they are simply no good and I need to replace them very asap.

Apologies for not knowing the correct name for parts of the bolts but the thread length of the new black bolt does seem to be the same as the old silver ones however the chamfered "head" of the new black bolts is noticeable narrower. Is this the reason for the slackening off issue ?

See photos for size comparison - the new black bolts do seem to be a bit lost within the recess on the wheel.

Do I just need to buy bolts with an approx 28mm diameter "head" ?
I haven't tried putting all my old bolts back in yet but will do that before I move the van again (unless I get some new proper fitting ones first).

Thanks.

 

[dunnah01]

Oki Doki .. got my Kevlar vest and hard hat on ready for the fall out.
How many of us have a torque wrench.? . and how many know how too actually use it, CORRECTLY
How many use that lovely long 2ft bar to UNDO WHEEL NUTS. Big no no . They designed to tighten and torque NOT untighten and untorque.
How many of us have actually had there torque wrench calibrated?
Not many is my feeling.
I have engineering background I and been driving for 50 years and never yet lost a wheel or even had a loose one and have always tightened my own wheels without torque.
Dare I say ( flak jacket still on) that torque wrenchs are for today's inexperienced so-called technicians who don't know how to use proper tools.
They use battery nut runners to tighten/undo nuts/bolts and not spanners or sockets.. Christ they even now have ratchet ring spanners.. The mind really does boggle at what sort of engineers this world is now raising.
In my day you really did have a feel for how tight something was...EXPERIANCE WITHOUT A TORQUE WRENCH!!!

..

Aye - them Morris Marinas we're way better engineered than these new-fangled Toyotas

 

[Pablotti]

They look like MSW 48 Van wheels. If so, you don’t need to change the bolts. The original factory bolts are fit for purpose.

 

[TonyEmm]

Thanks all.
Would anyone be kind enough to provide a link to what I should have so I can compare ?

Do the ones on this photo look any better ?

The wheel bolts in these photos are spherical heads. They shouldn’t be used with alloy or mag wheels, only steel.

The profile of the wheel bolt needs to match the profile of the seat in the rim.

There’s no doubt in my mind, if they were supplied as a complete set, I would return the rims and the bolts to the supplier.

Safety is paramount!

 

[TonyEmm]

Could it be the shiny finish just isn't providing enough friction either in the shoulder or in the threads?? Some loctite might help?

Absolutely not necessary. If anything, copper slip would be more appropriate On wheel bolts!
there is something fundamentally wrong….. Send them all back!

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[TonyEmm]

Oki Doki .. got my Kevlar vest and hard hat on ready for the fall out.
How many of us have a torque wrench.? . and how many know how too actually use it, CORRECTLY
How many use that lovely long 2ft bar to UNDO WHEEL NUTS. Big no no . They designed to tighten and torque NOT untighten and untorque.
How many of us have actually had there torque wrench calibrated?
Not many is my feeling.
I have engineering background I and been driving for 50 years and never yet lost a wheel or even had a loose one and have always tightened my own wheels without torque.
Dare I say ( flak jacket still on) that torque wrenchs are for today's inexperienced so-called technicians who don't know how to use proper tools.
They use battery nut runners to tighten/undo nuts/bolts and not spanners or sockets.. Christ they even now have ratchet ring spanners.. The mind really does boggle at what sort of engineers this world is now raising.
In my day you really did have a feel for how tight something was...EXPERIANCE WITHOUT A TORQUE WRENCH!!!

..

You’re correct in suggesting how to use a torque wrench, I.e. just for final tightening (a torque wrench is NOT an alternative to a ratchet socket or air gun) however, to suggest that because you have ‘an engineering background’ it’s ridiculous to state you NEVER use a torque wrench!
I’ll agree you get a feel for knowing when it’s right, but only a torque wrench can confirm it.

I’ve fitted 1000’s of towbars and manufacturerd countless trailers. We ALWAYS torqued every bolt, from M.8 to M16…. and beyond when dealing with ‘one shot’ nuts.

I had a range of torque wrenches, 3/8 drive, 1/2 drive and 3/4 drive. They were used on a daily basis!

To suggest that using a torque wrench turns a man into a mouse is arrogance in the extreme.

better Safe than Sorry!

 

[wilfyboy]

Think the actual threads might be bottoming out try threads all the way up to taper on head.

 

[SJA42]

They look like MSW 48 Van wheels. If so, you don’t need to change the bolts. The original factory bolts are fit for purpose.

You are correct on the wheels and I will be putting the original bolts on today and having a good look at it all.

 

[TonyEmm]

Think the actual threads might be bottoming out try threads all the way up to taper on head.

Wheel bolts are not to be messed with! There are variables including conical and spherical heads, thread length, pitch, the rim seat, etc.

if the supplied bolts don’t fit the supposedly matching rims, return the lot!

stay safe!

 

[dunnah01]

Member mrmoosehead has suggested the following:

"I had the same thing. There are locating nuts on the hub that might be stopping the wheel sitting flush, they start digging into the alloy and loosen, then you tighten, then they dig in more. Small bullet shaped nuts. Need removing"

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[68c]

Did the new wheel sit tight onto the hub before you put the bolts in or was in a bit sloppy?

I would check that. Recently bought a used VW Beetle, felt like unbalanced wheels art 60mph. Tyre shop said we had after market wheels fitted, the inner diameter was about 4mm larger than the hub so the only thing centralising the wheels was the bolts. Found the 'hub centric rings' on eBay. About £12 for four, immediate improvement.

 

[Tonks]

That's not necessarily correct. I upgraded my steel wheels to manufacturer supplied alloy wheels and the bolts are exactly the same.

Whereas when I changed alloys for ones which looked identical to the old ones, but a different colour and load rating, I had to have different bolts as the old ones didn’t fit. I also carry a set of standard bolts for the spare, which is a steel wheel. (But which has the same rolling circumference as my alloys/tyres, before anyone gets stressed!

 

[2GB Racing]

Well anyway my torque wrenches are calibrated as I assemble race engines and could not do that just by feel so torque wrench it is for me for tightening and breaker bar for undoing.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Could it be the shiny finish just isn't providing enough friction either in the shoulder or in the threads?? Some loctite might help?

Definitely no liquid etc should be added to the bolts.

It totally changes the dynamics of the torque setting.

 

[Clive Beeza]

Oki Doki .. got my Kevlar vest and hard hat on ready for the fall out.
How many of us have a torque wrench.? . and how many know how too actually use it, CORRECTLY
How many use that lovely long 2ft bar to UNDO WHEEL NUTS. Big no no . They designed to tighten and torque NOT untighten and untorque.
How many of us have actually had there torque wrench calibrated?
Not many is my feeling.
I have engineering background I and been driving for 50 years and never yet lost a wheel or even had a loose one and have always tightened my own wheels without torque.
Dare I say ( flak jacket still on) that torque wrenchs are for today's inexperienced so-called technicians who don't know how to use proper tools.
They use battery nut runners to tighten/undo nuts/bolts and not spanners or sockets.. Christ they even now have ratchet ring spanners.. The mind really does boggle at what sort of engineers this world is now raising.
In my day you really did have a feel for how tight something was...EXPERIANCE WITHOUT A TORQUE WRENCH!!!

..

Well put poppycamper, we appear to have been to the same engineering apprenticeship school
and your description of "feel" when tightening is a gained skill from years of using tools
looking at the OP issue,
my concern is it "looks" as though the tapered bell on the new supplied nuts is much smaller than the original steel wheel versions
now dependant on the taper in the alloy rims, if the supplied bolts are not compatible then using them will definitely cause damage, to either the tapered section of the bolt holes in the alloy wheel, or if they work loose in use, could easily elongate the wheel stud holes in alloy wheels
it sounds as no damage has been done so far, due to issue being spotted almost immediately,
my suggestion get on to the supplier at once, this could end in disaster if not sorted before using the van on the road

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[Sapper520]

Aye - them Morris Marinas we're way better engineered than these new-fangled Toyotas

Please don’t disrespect my 1.3 Coupe in the brown colour!

 

[TonyEmm]

Well put poppycamper, we appear to have been to the same engineering apprenticeship school
and your description of "feel" when tightening is a gained skill from years of using tools
looking at the OP issue,
my concern is it "looks" as though the tapered bell on the new supplied nuts is much smaller than the original steel wheel versions
now dependant on the taper in the alloy rims, if the supplied bolts are not compatible then using them will definitely cause damage, to either the tapered section of the bolt holes in the alloy wheel, or if they work loose in use, could easily elongate the wheel stud holes in alloy wheels
it sounds as no damage has been done so far, due to issue being spotted almost immediately,
my suggestion get on to the supplier at once, this could end in disaster if not sorted before using the van on the road

Well I wouldn’t have wanted my son (who is a qualified marine engineer) to have gone to your apprenticeship school!

Anyone who calls themselves an engineer then advocates chucking the torque wrenches away is a dangerous man!

I recall one who came into my shop, asked for galvanised bearings. My wife told him to get real (not very subtlety admitted) and he then declared “I’m an engineer, I want to speak to a man who knows about these things”!

He clearly wasn’t a mechanical engineer!

 

[ALKE]

I thought owning a MH / PVC was meant to be fun !
Having stressed about buying new wheels and tyres for a while I have finally gone an bought them.

I moved from 15" steel wheels to 16" alloys but that has just given me a new headache - wheel bolts.

The alloys came with a set of M14 / 1.5mm - 33mm long black wheel bolts (and locking bolts) and having fitted the wheels on with these new bolts they just don't seem to stay tight.

I have fitted them using a torque wrench, set to the 160nm recommended by the supplier, but after pottering up and down the road they become loose and need at least one crank of the wrench to get them back to torque.

I assume they are simply no good and I need to replace them very asap.

Apologies for not knowing the correct name for parts of the bolts but the thread length of the new black bolt does seem to be the same as the old silver ones however the chamfered "head" of the new black bolts is noticeable narrower. Is this the reason for the slackening off issue ?

See photos for size comparison - the new black bolts do seem to be a bit lost within the recess on the wheel.

Do I just need to buy bolts with an approx 28mm diameter "head" ?
I haven't tried putting all my old bolts back in yet but will do that before I move the van again (unless I get some new proper fitting ones first).

Thanks.

I’m sure your wheels are not tight enough my 15 inch wheels are 160 nm but the bigger alloys 16 should be 180nm hope this helps also you should re tighten wheel once after about 50 miles and that should be you hope this helps

 

[Silver-Fox]

I always torque any wheels off the ground.

It’s surprising how having the vehicle weight acting on the bolts changes the forces on said bolts.

 

[ronecc1]

Don't mess about. Just try your old bolts. If they fit snug, go and ask your supplier for new ones the same size, a touch longer. If they are silver, just paint them, black ones will be rusty soon anyway. Too small a bolt will allow the wheel to move and damage the hole, then new wheels needed. Would you drill a size 8 hole in a piece of wood, then fit a size 4 screw?

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[TonyEmm]

I always torque any wheels off the ground.

It’s surprising how having the vehicle weight acting on the bolts changes the forces on said bolts.

That would be a 2 person job! I always torqued them on the ground. With unladen trailers, the wheels may need chocking to prevent them slipping.

 

[Sapper520]

I always torque any wheels off the ground.

It’s surprising how having the vehicle weight acting on the bolts changes the forces on said bolts.

Had no choice but do it on the ground when I was checking wheel nuts on my Scammell and trailer. Same with most of the larger vehicles I drove.

 

[SJA42]

Member mrmoosehead has suggested the following:

"I had the same thing. There are locating nuts on the hub that might be stopping the wheel sitting flush, they start digging into the alloy and loosen, then you tighten, then they dig in more. Small bullet shaped nuts. Need removing"

I had read that myself and so left them on for the first wheel, mounted the wheel loosely , took it off and could see the locating nipple was going to mark/ touch the body of the alloy and so I removed the locating nipples.

 

[Lenny HB]

I’m sure your wheels are not tight enough my 15 inch wheels are 160 nm but the bigger alloys 16 should be 180nm hope this helps also you should re tighten wheel once after about 50 miles and that should be you hope this helps

Inncorect on 16" wheel it's 180nm for steel wheels, for alloys it's 160nm.

 

[SJA42]

Hopefully a more promising update from this mornings work.

Took all wheels off and had a good look at wheel hubs, hub threads, bolt threads , inside of alloy hub and alloy bolt holes. Couldn’t see anything that looked like damage or gave me any cause for concern.

I then refitted them all with the old bolts and, bearing in mind my lack of mechanic skills, I can’t see how they could have gone back on any better. A neighbour who is a retired mechanic came over to have a look and he watched me do one wheel and he seemed quite happy with the finished job.

However what did transpire is that the new bolts were shorter than I originally thought and mentioned in my original post. The locking bolts are 33mm but the normal new bolts were 4 or 5 mm shorter (so I assume 28mm).

I torqued up the refitted old bolts and drove the 300 yards round the block and checked them again - all fine

So I will be very careful and call round to my local garage tomorrow to ask them to give them a look over.

If all seems good then I will do a short local drive and check before going any further or faster.
I imagine it will take a fair few checks for me to feel comfortable again.

Overall I think it was just the new non locking bolts were to short and the head diameter too small.

Thanks for everyone’s suggestions, comments and concern.

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[TerryL]

Just a note of caution. When I changed my steel wheels for alloys I got Kwikfit to do it all - new tyres etc as well - with me watching. There was an immediate problem, which neither I or the guy actually doing the job spotted, in that there were two locator lugs sticking out of the hub that fitted in to suitable holes in the steel wheels causing the new alloy not to seat properly. It was only when he told the foreman fitter that it was spotted, the answer just to remove the lugs which just unscrewed. I've now done 125,000 miles with this setup through several tyre replacements and servicing, and never had any further problem.

Incidentally my locking wheel nuts were supplied with the new alloys. Unfortunately I had to replace the locking nuts couple of years ago when an idiot tyre fitter used his windy gun on the locknuts, which they should NEVER do, and destroyed the masterkey. I didn't find out until the next service when they had a right game getting the wheels off.

 

[Pablotti]

It’s sounds like you’ve had a lucky escape

 

[Silver-Fox]

That would be a 2 person job! I always torqued them on the ground. With unladen trailers, the wheels may need chocking to prevent them slipping.

I can do 150nm without a chock

Any more and it’s a pain

 

[Silver-Fox]

Had no choice but do it on the ground when I was checking wheel nuts on my Scammell and trailer. Same with most of the larger vehicles I drove.

Bit different to a car or Moho

 

[SJA42]

TerryL I had read about those locating pins and checked mine, saw they would interfere with the alloys and so removed them all.

Pablotty Yes indeed - I dread to think what could have happened if I decided to bomb down the motorway to test them out - although I would never do that as I always aim to take it easy and test anything altered / added carefully).
It took me weeks to be comfortable at speed after fitting a solar panel.

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[TonyEmm]

Oki Doki .. got my Kevlar vest and hard hat on ready for the fall out.
How many of us have a torque wrench.? . and how many know how too actually use it, CORRECTLY
How many use that lovely long 2ft bar to UNDO WHEEL NUTS. Big no no . They designed to tighten and torque NOT untighten and untorque.
How many of us have actually had there torque wrench calibrated?
Not many is my feeling.
I have engineering background I and been driving for 50 years and never yet lost a wheel or even had a loose one and have always tightened my own wheels without torque.
Dare I say ( flak jacket still on) that torque wrenchs are for today's inexperienced so-called technicians who don't know how to use proper tools.
They use battery nut runners to tighten/undo nuts/bolts and not spanners or sockets.. Christ they even now have ratchet ring spanners.. The mind really does boggle at what sort of engineers this world is now raising.
In my day you really did have a feel for how tight something was...EXPERIANCE WITHOUT A TORQUE WRENCH!!!

..

In addition to chucking away torque wrenches, I see you’re slagging off ratchet ring spinners too!
Clearly, you haven’t removed many car bumpers or fitted towbars! Ratchet ring spanner’s are invaluable for that job (and others) where there simply isn’t room to get a conventional ratchet and socket in.
The alternative would be a standard open ended spanner, going one flat at a time. Removing the bumper could take all morning at that rate, not to mention the skinned knuckles!