What's the max train weight for a car on an 'A' frame?

[Realist]

Hi all,

Just clarification needed just in case I’ve missed summit.

MoHo is weighed at 4005KG
Car going on A frame is 1554KG
MoHo is Fiat Ducato Autocruise Star Blazer XL 3.0L

No info on towing capacity on V5 so plate says as below.

So is it ok to tow the above?

Owe I have a C and C1 categories before anyone asks.

Ps,
Post the plate up ASAP just waiting on the post man don’t want to miss him lol.

 

[TonyEmm]

Plate and tow bar.

<Broken link removed>
Assuming the VIN Plate hasn’t been modified by the converter, then the 4 weights shown on the Fiat plate are:
maximum Gross weight (vehicle plus it’s load, 4005 kg.
Gross train weight is 6505 kg.
this gives you a towing limit (fully laden) of 2500 kg. Decrease the payload and you can increase the towing limit by the same amount.
The other two weights are axle weights.
1. Is front axle.
2. Is rear axle.
with a tag axle MH, there will be a third axle weight.

exceed ANY of these weights and you are illegal.

The 2,500 kg limit on a MH is very generous! However, whether it is a towed car on an ‘A’ frame is irrelevant, it’s still a trailer.
Bear in mind though that the ‘A’Frame and coupling May have their own lower limits.
<Broken link removed>View attachment 376363
View attachment 376364

 

[Realist]

Update.

Well still no plate on my van so in the end I contacted SvTech and between photos, info and conversations they supplied a plate ready to fix.

 

[TonyEmm]

Update.

Well still no plate on my van so in the end I contacted SvTech and between photos, info and conversations they supplied a plate ready to fix.

View attachment 388951

On that basis, the towing limit is now reduced to 1495kgs..... ?

 

[tacr2man]

On that basis, the towing limit is now reduced to 1495kgs..... ?

Not quite right , its a combined weight so if tow vehicle is below 4005 kg the difference can be added to the trailed part . The plate is showing combined axle weights of 3500kg so that means the tailer can be 2000kg

Its a bit odd the axle weights combined are normally higher than the GVM ?

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[bigtwin]

On that basis, the towing limit is now reduced to 1495kgs..... ?

Not quite right , its a combined weight so if tow vehicle is below 4005 kg the difference can be added to the trailed part . The plate is showing combined axle weights of 3500kg so that means the tailer can be 2000kg

Its a bit odd the axle weights combined are normally higher than the GVM ?

Indeed, as tacr2man says, the maximum towing weight of 1495Kg is only applicable if the motorhome is running at 4005Kg.

The requirement is simply that none of the plated weights can be exceeded. If the Motorhome was able to run at 3,000Kg (unlikely) then, theoretically, it could legally tow 2,500Kg.

Ian

 

[TonyEmm]

Not quite right , its a combined weight so if tow vehicle is below 4005 kg the difference can be added to the trailed part . The plate is showing combined axle weights of 3500kg so that means the tailer can be 2000kg

Its a bit odd the axle weights combined are normally higher than the GVM ?

Correct in one part but not in another! The towing limit is the Gross train Weight minus the Gross Vehicle weight, assuming the vehicle is fully laden. You are right that if the Vehicle weight (on a weighbridge) is less than the Gross vehicle weight, this can be added to the towing limit. However, in my experience, most motorhomes are running close to or even over, their gross vehicle weight (I’ve had one!)

In addition To the vehicle kerbweight, you need to allow for everything Else you are carrying. This will include the weight of any additions, (Bike carriers, Gás, water, Towbars, Luggage, the wife........Grandkids? ?.).
EU regs for kerbweight allow for 75kgs of driver and luggage, which I would suggest, is a little unrealistic!
If you were pulled by by VOSA or the police, they would only be interested in the PLATED weights (VIN plate), and actual weight, on a weighbridge.

With regard To axle weights, the combined total is to allow for variations in the way the vehicle is loaded. It does NOT increase the towing limit, the gross vehicle weight, or the gross train weight.

The law is very simple. If you exceed any ONE of the weights (When weighed on a weighbridge), on the VIN Plate, you are illegal.

Under normal circumstances, the weights in order are,
1. Gross vehicle weight.
2. Gross train weight.
3. front axle weight.
4. rear axle weight.
A tag axle motorhome will have an additional axle weight.

deducting weight 1 From weight 2 Will give the towing limit, assuming fully laden.

 

[TonyEmm]

Indeed, as tacr2man says, the maximum towing weight of 1495Kg is only applicable if the motorhome is running at 4005Kg.

The requirement is simply that none of the plated weights can be exceeded. If the Motorhome was able to run at 3,000Kg (unlikely) then, theoretically, it could legally tow 2,500Kg.

Ian

Refer to my answer to tacr2man!
You are right, It is simple, but in order to know, you would need to put the MH on a weighbridge.

I was horrified to discover that my first Hymer, (some 25 or more years ago) had XXXX as the gross train weight. I couldn’t legally tow an empty cardboard box! Worse, when I did put it on a public weighbridge, I found I was exceeding the gross vehicle weight by around 300kgs, and that was before I added the wife! ??
On a serious note, this was brought home to me on a steep downhill in Derbyshire, towing a small unbraked trailer. I was heading into Calver With drystone walls either side. A Freelander was coming up and I braked.....except I didn’t..... ????
I was down in 1st gear, footbrake through the floor and handbrake on.... I still couldn’t stop!
To this day, I don’t know how we avoided an accident.

Needless to say, i didn’t keep it much longer!

 

[bigtwin]

Refer to my answer to tacr2man!
You are right, It is simple, but in order to know, you would need to put the MH on a weighbridge.

No need for you to refer me to your answer as you are agreeing with what I posted earlier. ?

Ian

 

[TonyEmm]

So we agree not to differ! ????

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[tacr2man]

Correct in one part but not in another! The towing limit is the Gross train Weight minus the Gross Vehicle weight, assuming the vehicle is fully laden. You are right that if the Vehicle weight (on a weighbridge) is less than the Gross vehicle weight, this can be added to the towing limit. However, in my experience, most motorhomes are running close to or even over, their gross vehicle weight (I’ve had one!)

In addition To the vehicle kerbweight, you need to allow for everything Else you are carrying. This will include the weight of any additions, (Bike carriers, Gás, water, Towbars, Luggage, the wife........Grandkids? ?.).
EU regs for kerbweight allow for 75kgs of driver and luggage, which I would suggest, is a little unrealistic!
If you were pulled by by VOSA or the police, they would only be interested in the PLATED weights (VIN plate), and actual weight, on a weighbridge.

With regard To axle weights, the combined total is to allow for variations in the way the vehicle is loaded. It does NOT increase the towing limit, the gross vehicle weight, or the gross train weight.

The law is very simple. If you exceed any ONE of the weights (When weighed on a weighbridge), on the VIN Plate, you are illegal.

Under normal circumstances, the weights in order are,
1. Gross vehicle weight.
2. Gross train weight.
3. front axle weight.
4. rear axle weight.
A tag axle motorhome will have an additional axle weight.

deducting weight 1 From weight 2 Will give the towing limit, assuming fully laden.

Dont know what I posted was wrong in any part , maybe its just how you read it

 

[TonyEmm]

Its a bit odd the axle weights combined are normally higher than the GVM ?

Dont know what I posted was wrong in any part , maybe its just how you read it

I was referring to your axle weights reference.

It’s perfectly normal for ‘combined’ axle weights to exceed the Gross vehicle Mass, without some variation, there would no margin for error with loading! ?

 

[tacr2man]

I was referring to your axle weights reference.

It’s perfectly normal for ‘combined’ axle weights to exceed the Gross vehicle Mass, without some variation, there would no margin for error with loading! ?

Thats what happens when you look at screen without glasses on , and read axles as coming to 3500 instead of 4500

 

[Realist]

As you most probs know the reason for my post was........

1) Find correct towing capacity so I know what I can tow with a A frame.
2) Weight plates missing from van so needed a plate done to comply just in case I get pulled.

Now above are my main concerns but I’m still doughful in my mind if they are correct but all the details have been left to SvTech and they are the experts so.....

Bottom line is I presume now on paper and in black and white I can tow up to max 1495kg.

If I find a local weighbridge would I need to take the car on the frame with me to get all weights or can I just load up the MoHo and go from there?

I just want to be safe, within correct weights and be able to go from A to B without incident.

Regards.

 

[Pausim]

An A frame does not add significantly to the axle loads on the motorhome. I used a luggage weighing scale and found the downward weight (nose weight) was only a few kg, just a bit less than half the weight of the A frame itself, the rest is carried by the car.

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[bigtwin]

Bottom line is I presume now on paper and in black and white I can tow up to max 1495kg.

If I find a local weighbridge would I need to take the car on the frame with me to get all weights or can I just load up the MoHo and go from there?

I just want to be safe, within correct weights and be able to go from A to B without incident.

Regards.

If the MH is loaded to its maximum weight your towing weight is limited to 1495Kg but it is not, necessarily, the maximum you can tow. You can tow an additional 1Kg more than this for each 1Kg that the MH runs below the maximum gross vehicle of 4005Kg.

The only way you will know for sure that you do not exceed ANY of the plated weights is to take the MH with the tow car attached to a weigh bridge.

Ian

 

[Coolcats]

Hi all,

Just clarification needed just in case I’ve missed summit.

MoHo is weighed at 4005KG
Car going on A frame is 1554KG
MoHo is Fiat Ducato Autocruise Star Blazer XL 3.0L

No info on towing capacity on V5 so plate says as below.

So is it ok to tow the above?

Owe I have a C and C1 categories before anyone asks.

Ps,
Post the plate up ASAP just waiting on the post man don’t want to miss him lol.

The plate on the van will have the Gross Train Weight.
Something like this.
View attachment 376350

I made a spreadsheet a while back I am happy for people to use this. The disclaimer is that it is your responsibility to ensure that data entered is correct and that I cannot be liable for any errors contained within the calculations.

 

[Realist]

Thanks will have a play tomorrow.

 

[TonyEmm]

Hi all,

Just clarification needed just in case I’ve missed summit.

MoHo is weighed at 4005KG
Car going on A frame is 1554KG
MoHo is Fiat Ducato Autocruise Star Blazer XL 3.0L

No info on towing capacity on V5 so plate says as below.

So is it ok to tow the above?

Owe I have a C and C1 categories before anyone asks.

Ps,
Post the plate up ASAP just waiting on the post man don’t want to miss him lol.

Hi Brian,

I forgot to mention (and i‘m not sure anyone else has either), that the TOTAL weight of your “trailer” (that is towed car + A frame + anything else you put in it) will need to be within the MH towing capacity.

The A frame will add noseweight to the towbar and this will also alter the axle weights. The rear axle weight will increase, the front axle weight will marginally decrease, though by how much will depend on the overhang of the MH.

As you have already suggested, the ONLY way to be sure is to go to a public weighbridge and:

1. find the actual kerbweight of the MH in running order and the laden axle weights. Compare these with the VIN plate.
2. Calculate the available towing limit, (that is plated Gross Train Weight minus the ACTUAL kerbweight.)
3. Weigh the towcar and it’s A frame (plus anything else you store in it) and compare this with your calculated towing limit.
4.Check the noseweight of the A frame when fitted to the car, (use a bit of stick cut to a suitable length and bathroom scales).
5. Ensure that the added nosweight will not increase the rear axle weight of the MH beyond it’s plated weight (shouldn’t be an issue unless it’s very marginal).

Bear in mind that a type Approved towbar will also have plated weights on it. It’s maximum towing limit SHOULD be sufficient for the vehicle it was designed to fit (Though to be sure you would need to do a calculation relating to the ‘D’ value shown)
The towbar’s noseweight is the ‘S’ value and needs to be sufficient for the noseweight applied, plus it should not exceed the recommended noseweight limit of the MH.

it all sounds a bit complicated but you should only need to do it once....
UNTIL YOU CHANGE SOMETHING! ??

Keep your weighbridge receipts. At least if it does all go wrong at some point, you will have some evidence of ‘duty of care’.

 

[TonyEmm]

Any thoughts on the above?

weights quoted in the handbook are for information only. (They May be subject to change).
It’s a shame they don’t include towing information including noseweight (not many do!).

I did roadside checks with Nottinghamshire Police a number of years ago. They would only refer to the actual weights they measured, compared with the plated (VIN) weights, and the ‘S’ value of the towbar. Exceed ANY of them and you were knicked!?????. NOTE!! Not strictly true, they did prefer to advise where possible!

TBH, the biggest problem I came across was with ‘certain’ caravans that even in ’ex-works’ condition were way over the correct noseweight allowance. In every instance I came across, they were British built....?

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[Emmit]

V5.

View attachment 376404

I haven't fought my way through all this yet BUT!!!

Could I respectfully point out to the OP that he has, quite rightly, scribbled out the Reg. No and VIN No. on the above V5 but he has shown the World his VIN No' on the photo of the VIN Plate.
You could ask our Glorious Leader to remove that particular entry.

 

[Oldbob]

An A frame will not put any significant weight on to the MH towbar as all the weight is still on the 4 wheels of the road.
A trailer will put weight on the towbar and make the weight on back axle somewhat more.
When a vehicle is weighed at a ministry, vosa, or whatever you want to call them weighing facility they will take what ever weight they find at the time.
If as in the instance for commercial hgvs you can show you went to the nearest public weighbridge for weighing and then we're heading back to the point of loading to shed excess weight then that is ok.
If not you are in deep do do !
They will not accept you weighed it earlier that year and done the calculations, but forgot to add the weight of Fido and his food in.
To save a world of pain on smaller weighted vehicles I would always leave a 100 kilo tolerance under weight, sounds extreme but if weighed when wet, with MH and toad then all the water sooner adds up. Same as if you weighed the outfit without full fuel, suddenly found a cheap garage and filled both up then got weighed.
It is a minefield these days, and a lot depends on the people doing the weighing, and the attitude of the person being weighed.
I have had various discussions with persons doing checks both here and over Europe, mostly with hgvs and abnormal loads, the worst was in Devon when the guy had a complete cob on as I wasn't overweight and he couldn't see how to book me for being over length, so after an hour they done me for a quarter of an inch too much travel on brake actuator on trailer and a broken bracket for the exhaust on main platform, then put it down to gross miss maintenance and that opens a whole world of pain !

 

[Realist]

Thank you forgot about that and asked admin to remove it.

I haven't fought my way through all this yet BUT!!!

Could I respectfully point out to the OP that he has, quite rightly, scribbled out the Reg. No and VIN No. on the above V5 but he has shown the World his VIN No' on the photo of the VIN Plate.
You could ask our Glorious Leader to remove that particular entry.

 

[Realist]

You know what wish I never started this and wish I just purchased a bloody tent lol

 

[TonyEmm]

You know what wish I never started this and wish I just purchased a bloody tent lol

I hate tents! ???

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[Coolcats]

You know what wish I never started this and wish I just purchased a bloody tent lol

Hopefully the spread sheet helped and if you have any questions just ask ?

 

[TonyEmm]

An A frame will not put any significant weight on to the MH towbar as all the weight is still on the 4 wheels of the road.
A trailer will put weight on the towbar and make the weight on back axle somewhat more.

They will not accept you weighed it earlier that year and done the calculations, but forgot to add the weight of Fido and his food in.
To save a world of pain on smaller weighted vehicles I would always leave a 100 kilo tolerance under weight..........

I’m having to assume weights here as ‘A’ frames were something I never built, However, I would guess they weigh 20 to 30kgs. As the ‘A’ frame is suspended at both ends, logically it adds around 15kgs noseweight to the towball and that comes off your payload. A well designed and properly loaded trailer may add 50kgs. Less for a luggage trailer, considerably more for a poorly loaded car transporter. (Query on bike racks here, if it’s towbar mounted, the weight of that has to be deducted from the towbar’s ‘S’ value.)

My experience with Nottinghamshire Police was rather better than you are describing! I was invited to observe and advise the Police and the VOSA personnel when pulling over vehicles that were Towing trailers (including caravans). Their objective was very much to advise and educate rather than ‘nick’. (Though we had a few that had immediate prohibition orders on them)....

Whenever possible, I would definitely prefer to drive a MH with empty water tanks then fill up on site. Having a 100+ litres (kgs) of liquid slopping about is not a good idea! I refer to my earlier comment where I mentioned my 1st Hymer B654 (circa 1992). That was overweight when I put it on the weighbridge, even before I’d half loaded it! Having a 100kg spare capacity would have been a luxury!

 

[Realist]

Well today I received a Reich 1500kg portable weighing scales and did the deed and the results are.

Any feedback?

 

[Realist]

Also am I reading it right as I’ve got 1495kg in towing capacity.

 

[tacr2man]

Looking at your pictographs it appears that one side weighs 1634 and the other weighs 1954 ,( but i gather you weighed axle 1 and then axle 2 ?) with a total of 3589 and your gvm is 4005 so you are well inside that, your train weight is 5500 so with your vehicle at 3589 you can pull a further 1911

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[Realist]

Thought so, thanks.