What is this payload thing?

[70321]

and why is it so important? (I told you it should be my husband asking these questions!) So a 3500kg van and then I keep hearing about payload. What do we have to be careful about? Thanks

 

[TonyEmm]

My V5 makes no mention of weight - just PLG. Presumably, I just take note of the weight plate, under the bonnet?

If the chassis has been modified (I.e. AlKo) there should be a converters plate that supersedes the original VIN plate.
if the base vehicle chassis cab is unmodified, the original VIN plate will stand and that is what VOSA etc will check.....

 

[Revolvor]

If the chassis has been modified (I.e. AlKo) there should be a converters plate that supersedes the original VIN plate.
if the base vehicle chassis cab is unmodified, the original VIN plate will stand and that is what VOSA etc will check.....

Thanks - it's an original Fiat Chassis, so that's what I will work with.

A bit of self promotion here - I weighed my MH a while back, but have since removed some items, and added others. As I didn't want to keep on getting it reweighed, I made a simple spreadsheet that allows me to recalculate the overall and axle weights, depending on the weight of items removed/ added, depending on where they are relative to the rear axle. There is a copy in the Resources section of the forum - Motorhome Weight Calculator.

 

[bigtwin]

The combined axle weights do not equate to MIRO. They should always be greater to allow for some flexibility in loading.

That is true but I suspect that what you intended to say was:

The combined axle weights do not equate to GVW.

Ian

 

[TonyEmm]

That is true but I suspect that what you intended to say was:

The combined axle weights do not equate to GVW.

Ian

CORRECT!! ??

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[Minxy]

Our MH is plated at 3300kg. (Bessacarr E410 2010) How do we go about changing it to 3500kg? Would it need any modifications? We would just like the extra payload for the ebikes.

It really depends on what chassis you have, wheels/tyres etc, on the face of it there probably isn't any reason why you can't go up to 3500kg as a paper exercise but without knowing the specifics of your MH it's difficult to advise. If you go to the SVTech site you can do an enquiry to see what is necessary.

 

[stevewagner]

Tbh just had a nice surprise in that a bloke on here with exactly the same van spec kindly weighed his van and let me know the figures which showed overall weight at 2960kg with rear axle at 1220kg and front axle at 1680kg

ok, the remaining payload of 540kg isn’t amazing (against 3500 max) but what great is that the rear axle weight remaining leaves me with 780kg to play with (max being 2000kg) as long as I replate to 3850kg

enough for a substantial scooter on the back methinks

I think !

I think you have the axle weights the wrong way round.

 

[TonyEmm]

I think you have the axle weights the wrong way round.

Not only that, the axle weights total less than the actual MH weight which isn't possible. There is something amiss with the weights given!

 

[Minxy]

Tbh just had a nice surprise in that a bloke on here with exactly the same van spec kindly weighed his van and let me know the figures which showed overall weight at 2960kg with rear axle at 1220kg and front axle at 1680kg

ok, the remaining payload of 540kg isn’t amazing (against 3500 max) but what great is that the rear axle weight remaining leaves me with 780kg to play with (max being 2000kg) as long as I replate to 3850kg

enough for a substantial scooter on the back methinks

I think you have the axle weights the wrong way round.

Not necessarily, if there's nothing in it then it could easily be heavier on the front until loaded up.

Not only that, the axle weights total less than the actual MH weight which isn't possible. There is something amiss with the weights given!

I'm assuming that there's a typo on one of the figures given which is easy to do.

 

[Don Campbell]

There is currently no such allowance according to https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories

HOWEVER! (isn’t there always a but or however?)
according to https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/news/2018/alternative-fuel-derogation/ you are correct, the allowance has actually been increased to 4250kgs.

With ranges of 60 to 80 miles though, I think it might be a while before we see an all electric MOTORHOME of any size!

Agree it's going to be quite a while until we see an electric MH with a decent range and thanks for checking out the fact that it's actually 4250Kgs that's allowable, admittedly only if you are carrying goods. However I spoke to a commercial driver trainer who knew about this and asked him what the 5 hrs training involved. Not surprisingly he didn't know specifically because he hasn't seen a written directive. He assumes it will be nothing more than a course designed to make drivers aware of slightly increased braking distances with a heavier load, different handling characteristics, and how to ensure even loading. He agreed it was probably a bit of a fudge to get the derogation on the books.
My real point was that the MH industry should pick up on this because it probably wouldn't take too much effort to have the same rules applied to campervans which would take us all out of this incredible nonsense about overloading. I'm quite sure that 80% of campers loaded up for the summer holidays probably breach the current regulations.

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[TonyEmm]

I absolutely agree with your logic! If the MGW can be uplifted to allow for the weight of batteries, then it could also be uplifted to allow for extra payload in a Motorhome!
it will take some intensive lobbying from somewhere though as logic doesn’t seem to be a basis for altering regulations! ??

 

[Minxy]

My real point was that the MH industry should pick up on this because it probably wouldn't take too much effort to have the same rules applied to campervans which would take us all out of this incredible nonsense about overloading. I'm quite sure that 80% of campers loaded up for the summer holidays probably breach the current regulations.

I absolutely agree with your logic! If the MGW can be uplifted to allow for the weight of batteries, then it could also be uplifted to allow for extra payload in a Motorhome!
it will take some intensive lobbying from somewhere though as logic doesn’t seem to be a basis for altering regulations! ??

One major issue though ... the 'uplift' is to do with licencing so if you have a C1 you can go over 3500kg anyway, without you can only go up to 3500kg, so even if the uplift was applied you would still be restricted to 4250kg. Sounds okay in principle ... the problem is that it will NOT change the MH's weights ... some motorhomes cannot be uprated at all, some only to 3850kg (with/without mods), some can have it without any mods at all.

If the licensing was changed it would certainly help some to be able to keep driving their already legal MHs but I suspect it would open up a whole new issue of even more people overloading their MHs beyond their safe capacity (suspension, brakes etc).

 

[TonyEmm]

One major issue though ... the 'uplift' is to do with licencing so if you have a C1 you can go over 3500kg anyway, without you can only go up to 3500kg, so even if the uplift was applied you would still be restricted to 4250kg. Sounds okay in principle ... the problem is that it will NOT change the MH's weights ... some motorhomes cannot be uprated at all, some only to 3850kg (with/without mods), some can have it without any mods at all.

If the licensing was changed it would certainly help some to be able to keep driving their already legal MHs but I suspect it would open up a whole new issue of even more people overloading their MHs beyond their safe capacity (suspension, brakes etc).

You’re right of course, this IS a paper exercise. I would assume that an all electric commercial would be designed From the ground up to accommodate the extra weight of batteries. That would mean in many cases up rating the wheels/tyres suspension etc. Brakes are a bit less of an issue on ‘all electric’ due to the way the work.

simply up rating the VIN plate on a regular vehicle isn’t always an option. As above, increasing the GVW would mean up rating Wheels/tyres, Suspension, Chassis, engine possibly, brakes definitely!
it’s ok being able to carry or pull something, but you need to be able to stop it too!

 

[Minxy]

Brakes are a bit less of an issue on ‘all electric’ due to the way the work.

I thought they'd gone back to the days where you stuck your feet through the floor of the car to stop, like Fred Flintstone et al?

 

[TonyEmm]

I thought they'd gone back to the days where you stuck your feet through the floor of the car to stop, like Fred Flintstone et al?

I’ve been through that performance with my first Hymer (pre disc brakes), NEVER AGAIN!???

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[Don Campbell]

One major issue though ... the 'uplift' is to do with licencing so if you have a C1 you can go over 3500kg anyway, without you can only go up to 3500kg, so even if the uplift was applied you would still be restricted to 4250kg. Sounds okay in principle ... the problem is that it will NOT change the MH's weights ... some motorhomes cannot be uprated at all, some only to 3850kg (with/without mods), some can have it without any mods at all.

If the licensing was changed it would certainly help some to be able to keep driving their already legal MHs but I suspect it would open up a whole new issue of even more people overloading their MHs beyond their safe capacity (suspension, brakes etc).

Hi Minxy girl, I understand that all the 6.3m Fiats (and presumably others as well) are already specified with the heavy chassis that can be uprated without modification to 4250kgs provided the correct tyres and wheels have been fitted. What the DoT have apparently agreed for electric vans is that the 4250kg rated van can be driven on a B license provided the operator passes a 5 hr test with a commercial tester, and see my earlier comment re the test itself and the fact that it's not yet been properly defined. Obviously you can only load the vehicle to its rating, but it seems to me there are a lot of vans built to be rated at 4250kgs which are only rated at 3500kgs because that was the figure plucked out of the air when the licensing limits were decided, or was it a bit more scientific than that, which I doubt.

 

[INVICTA]

I once had a Motorhome purposely built with a lift to enable my husband’s and my disability scooters to be carried in it. The person knew the reason why the ramp was needed and what we would be carrying. As soon as we took delivery of the M/C, following our return home, some 300+ mile journey, we took it to a public weighbridge with all that we would need to carry when using it for its purpose, only to find it was grossly overweight.

I contacted the person who had built it. He agreed to upgrade the suspension and change the tyres which he did. Being somewhat ignorant of payloads, we accepted what he had done. Despite the ‘upgrading’ being made, we were still very unhappy with the situation as we were still very restricted with what we could carry.

Our solution was to sell it making sure the new owner was made aware of the weight situation. A couple with the wife disabled but only using a manual wheelchair, bought it. They were very satisfied with their purchase.

A few years later I saw the M/C again being used at a M/C show this time by a disabled trader using a huge electric wheelchair. It was obvious that it was being used to carry both him, his family and goods that were causing it to be used way above it’s legal payload. Now 2 M/Cs later, I know all about payloads and what can be legally allowed to be carried in the later ones I have purchased!

 

[peterc10]

that’s true but the OP said he was hoping to get his deposit back.... most likely more than £100 and hopefully, less than £30,000! It’s quite a wide scope.....?

As others have said, it is the total sales price of the item, not the amount you paid on the credit card, that has to be more than £100 and less than £30,000.

 

[peterc10]

Hi Minxy girl, I understand that all the 6.3m Fiats (and presumably others as well) are already specified with the heavy chassis that can be uprated without modification to 4250kgs provided the correct tyres and wheels have been fitted. What the DoT have apparently agreed for electric vans is that the 4250kg rated van can be driven on a B license provided the operator passes a 5 hr test with a commercial tester, and see my earlier comment re the test itself and the fact that it's not yet been properly defined. Obviously you can only load the vehicle to its rating, but it seems to me there are a lot of vans built to be rated at 4250kgs which are only rated at 3500kgs because that was the figure plucked out of the air when the licensing limits were decided, or was it a bit more scientific than that, which I doubt.

It will be the converter not Fiat, who decides whether they want the light or heavy chassis. And guess which is the cheaper one! And remember they can also spec it as cab only and then fit a light or heavy Alko chassis at the beginning of the conversion. No Ducato on the light chassis from both Fiat and Alko can get as high as 4250kg AFAIK. So there are no definitive rule as to what chassis you will get. It really is buyer beware.

 

[pappajohn]

Not only that, the axle weights total less than the actual MH weight which isn't possible. There is something amiss with the weights given!

That caught me out too.... The given weights are UNLADEN weights so never will add up to what they should be.

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[Minxy]

Hi Minxy girl, I understand that all the 6.3m Fiats (and presumably others as well) are already specified with the heavy chassis that can be uprated without modification to 4250kgs provided the correct tyres and wheels have been fitted.

Assuming we are talking about PVCs then yes that's my understanding too.

What the DoT have apparently agreed for electric vans is that the 4250kg rated van can be driven on a B license provided the operator passes a 5 hr test with a commercial tester, and see my earlier comment re the test itself and the fact that it's not yet been properly defined. Obviously you can only load the vehicle to its rating, but it seems to me there are a lot of vans built to be rated at 4250kgs which are only rated at 3500kgs because that was the figure plucked out of the air when the licensing limits were decided, or was it a bit more scientific than that, which I doubt.

Many of the MHs/PVCs sold in the UK are made abroad where they generally have much tighter restrictions as to what weight of vehicle you can drive so going over 3500kg is problematic, therefore they are built with their largest market in mind, namely mainland Europe. In order to allow the vehicles to have all the bells and whistles that are expected nowadays even in basic MHs they have to build them as lightly as possible so use the lighter weight (and cheaper) chassis etc so going up to 4250kg isn't possible in most some. Some can go to is 3650kg, although 3850kg is the usual maximum for the lighter chassis even with mods, and others can go to 4005kg with a lot of mods usually if they have an Alko chassis. The heavier chassis ones can usually go to 4250kg without any changes (assuming tyres etc are already sufficient), although some have gone up to 4500kg being the maximum of the axle weights, but that's not as common. Of course there are other variations but these are the most common weights.

 

[Pausim]

I understand that all the 6.3m Fiats (and presumably others as well) are already specified with the heavy chassis

I don’t think this is a general rule. Our motorhome at 6.99m has the lightweight chassis as standard with a maximum weight of 3500kg, it is an option to have have the same chassis uprated to 3850kg. A further option is to have the heavy chassis at 4250Kg.

 

[thebriars]

I once had a Motorhome purposely built with a lift to enable my husband’s and my disability scooters to be carried in it. The person knew the reason why the ramp was needed and what we would be carrying. As soon as we took delivery of the M/C, following our return home, some 300+ mile journey, we took it to a public weighbridge with all that we would need to carry when using it for its purpose, only to find it was grossly overweight.

These days that is covered under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and as it is under 30 days from collection, you would be entitled to your full money back. After that time, with a motorhome, some allowance is made for usage, though this will not be anything like its depreciation.

The CRA is an extremely useful Act, however few seem aware of just how powerful it is for the consumer.

 

[Minxy]

I don’t think this is a general rule. Our motorhome at 6.99m has the lightweight chassis as standard with a maximum weight of 3500kg, it is an option to have have the same chassis uprated to 3850kg. A further option is to have the heavy chassis at 4250Kg.

Say this in the M&S advert voice: "Ah but we don't JUST have a Fiat chassis, we have a Carthago Fiat Alko chassis!"

For our A-classes we have the Fiat front gubbins with an Alko super lightweight chassis at the rear (in light or heavy versions), that's why my comment earlier was specifically relating to PVCs where the base vehicle itself doesn't normally have any changes made to it unlike coachbuilts/A-classes etc which often do and can have a variety of weights associated with them.

 

[Don Campbell]

Assuming we are talking about PVCs then yes that's my understanding too.


Many of the MHs/PVCs sold in the UK are made abroad where they generally have much tighter restrictions as to what weight of vehicle you can drive so going over 3500kg is problematic, therefore they are built with their largest market in mind, namely mainland Europe. In order to allow the vehicles to have all the bells and whistles that are expected nowadays even in basic MHs they have to build them as lightly as possible so use the lighter weight (and cheaper) chassis etc so going up to 4250kg isn't possible in most some. Some can go to is 3650kg, although 3850kg is the usual maximum for the lighter chassis even with mods, and others can go to 4005kg with a lot of mods usually if they have an Alko chassis. The heavier chassis ones can usually go to 4250kg without any changes (assuming tyres etc are already sufficient), although some have gone up to 4500kg being the maximum of the axle weights, but that's not as common. Of course there are other variations but these are the most common weights.

Well I did start a good hare running with my earlier disclosure about electric vans up to 4250kgs being allowed to be driven with a B licence, after a 5 hr course and I have learned a lot from it. I assumed that like my Campscout which has the heavy chassis as standard (I am told), all the 6.3m conversion probably had the same spec. I therefore sensed there could be a possibility that the MH industry, if it was smart enough, could use this government sop to electric vehicle promotion as leverage to get all PVC's with the heavy chassis to be registered as 4250kgs and able to be driven on a B licence. This would not only kill off a lot of overloading problems but make it a lot easier for converters to actually fit extras like awnings, solar, dual batteries, decent size fridges, bike carriers for heavy ebikes etc without "deceiving" the purchaser into thinking fitting all of these comfort extras would be OK. It's very apparent that the whole thing is a minefield and needs sorting out if possible because very few really understand either the regulations or the way they affect what you can or can't do as a result. The dealers reticence to divulge the information doesn't help either but if the truth be known how many of them actually understand the regulations. The other matter is that we have actually left the EU now and we can make our own rules.