Welsh Aires ?

[pagey]

We have stayed there a good few times on our trips to and from Wales. Great spot and what a wonderful walk over the aqueduct.

the 2 car parks in Brecon are good go past the first one on the riverside and about 300 mtrs further on there is parking right by the toilets again only £8 per night and another at the bus station by morrisons

 

[Stealaway]

the 2 car parks in Brecon are good go past the first one on the riverside and about 300 mtrs further on there is parking right by the toilets again only £8 per night and another at the bus station by morrisons

Yep stayed there this year by the river. Great spot, in fact it was free for us with an invalid badge.
All that's needed by a motorhome

 

[GJH]

they are only so attractive to "councils" or authorties wanting to attract business/tourists to a town and make money that way for local businesses and then possibly increase taxes/rates/parking/etc and recoup it that way

They are not attractive to folk who want to make a business solely out of charging people camping/staying over.
They are called "camp sites" and charge more to make a profit

In other words (despite what is often claimed) it would be unusual for any organisation (including a council) to make much, if any, return on investment.
It can be a valid argument that such investment would attract more business/tourists (though the economic benefit would be to businesses rather than the council as, apart from any aire fee, there would be no income to the council) but that validity isn't universal. Councils need evidence that the costs of allowing a car park to be used for camping, including any consequent loss of parking income) would be worth it. Even then, we know from experience that it doesn't always work because the demand isn't there. Hence my point above about people approaching their local council to provide that evidence.

 

[jongood]

As pointed out many times, each council area is different and aires aren't wanted everywhere.
When we persuaded Redcar & Cleveland to "relax the rules" and allow overnighting at Guisborough it failed because there was hardly any demand. Luckily they had not spent a lot of money.

As also pointed out many times, was Guisborough the right place?

 

[Tombola]

In other words (despite what is often claimed) it would be unusual for any organisation (including a council) to make much, if any, return on investment.
It can be a valid argument that such investment would attract more business/tourists (though the economic benefit would be to businesses rather than the council as, apart from any aire fee, there would be no income to the council) but that validity isn't universal. Councils need evidence that the costs of allowing a car park to be used for camping, including any consequent loss of parking income) would be worth it. Even then, we know from experience that it doesn't always work because the demand isn't there. Hence my point above about people approaching their local council to provide that evidence.

YES and NO the council would (probably) make direct benefit form higher taxes/rates to local businesses as I stated due to increased attraction to the towns. After all, when I go to say dudno, my £100 spend in retsaurants in a weekend has moved from my home town to theirs.
A town with a footfall of 2million visitors a year will charge higher rates for its businesses than a town with less becasue after all the businesses will sell more, thats economy. thats why deprived areas pay little or no rates/tax. Don't you worry, Councils won't do it unless it is viable in the end.

Aires will never make anyone ,millionaires as a stand alone private business, there are better things to do with the land in most areas.

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[GJH]

As also pointed out many times, was Guisborough the right place?

It turned out not to be. The point I have tried to make so many times is that people are wrong to assume that any council car park (or part of one) can be easily transformed into an aire and will be successful. There are far more that will be unattractive than attractive. That is why a specific case must be made for each place.

 

[Tombola]

There are far more that will be unattractive than attractive

really why do you think this ?

 

[GJH]

YES and NO the council would (probably) make direct benefit form higher taxes/rates to local businesses as I stated due to increased attraction to the towns. After all, when I go to say dudno, my £100 spend in retsaurants in a weekend has moved from my home town to theirs.
A town with a footfall of 2million visitors a year will charge higher rates for its businesses than a town with less becasue after all the businesses will sell more, thats economy. thats why deprived areas pay little or no rates/tax. Don't you worry, Councils won't do it unless it is viable in the end.

Aires will never make anyone ,millionaires as a stand alone private business, there are better things to do with the land in most areas.

I think you misunderstand how business rates work. The business rates payable are calculated on the Rateable Value, which is based on the open market rental value of the property as worked out by the Valuation Office Agency. Businesses don't pay higher rates if the amount of business they do increases (or less if the amount of business decreases). The rate poundage is set by central government, not local councils.
When you spend your £100 in Llandudno rather than at home the only incomes affected are those of the restaurants who receive your business (or not).

 

[GJH]

really why do you think this ?

Because I spent 13 years studying the subject and communicating with every local authority in the country.
Just think about the number of LA car parks there are in Merseyside for instance. How many (or few) of them will actually be attractive places for people to stay at if they were provided with aire facilities?

 

[Tombola]

Because I spent 13 years studying the subject and communicating with every local authority in the country.
Just think about the number of LA car parks there are in Merseyside for instance. How many (or few) of them will actually be attractive places for people to stay at if they were provided with aire facilities?

I was only asking the question, (seriously as you seem to knwo about it ) dont take offence
Your answer in bold above isn't the reasons.... it is what you have acccomplished.

I was looking for, what I assumed woudl be were "something" like you said in the second sentence. Yes I can beleive this of course, but Id also llike to think there are some car parks in lovely laces around the country that could be used better outside of normal car park hours.

A frend of mine has a car park in Norrth Wales that gets full regularly through summer through the day, but is sat empty in the eves and winter due to it only being allowed cars at the moment. He is asking the LA (of which he is also a councillor) about applying for an overnight MH licence.

Yes I get your point you uare trying to make about the rates, but if you think a little farther down the line, rates are governed on market rent value & space from a specific year, 2018 atm I think by the VO. Well this correlates to the actual rental / business income (prospective) achieved in dfferent areas, which again is directly related to how many people want to be in that area to follwo the footfall or rather chances of better business income or desire to be there.
More companies desire to be in higher spend areas if retail. Unfortunately most retail is now on its arse, but rates arent.

It is a fact that business rates are higher in desireable areas than non for the equivalent properties, barriing anomolies., and economic performance generally being better in large cities.

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[jongood]

It turned out not to be. The point I have tried to make so many times is that people are wrong to assume that any council car park (or part of one) can be easily transformed into an aire and will be successful. There are far more that will be unattractive than attractive. That is why a specific case must be made for each place.

All French car parks aren't aire de camping cars- probably less than 10%. they ve chosen ones that are suitable because of their location or aspect.

Done properly Its also a good way to manage motorhome traffic away from medieval town centers, like the pillock who tried to drive through the arch at Alnwick recently.

 

[GJH]

I was only asking the question, (seriously as you seem to knwo about it ) dont take offence
Your answer in bold above isn't the reasons.... it is what you have acccomplished.

I was looking for, what I assumed woudl be were "something" like you said in the second sentence. Yes I can beleive this of course, but Id also llike to think there are some car parks in lovely laces around the country that could be used better outside of normal car park hours.

A frend of mine has a car park in Norrth Wales that gets full regularly through summer through the day, but is sat empty in the eves and winter due to it only being allowed cars at the moment. He is asking the LA (of which he is also a councillor) about applying for an overnight MH licence.

Yes I get your point you uare trying to make about the rates, but if you think a little farther down the line, rates are governed on market rent value & space from a specific year, 2018 atm I think by the VO. Well this correlates to the actual rental / business income (prospective) achieved in dfferent areas, which again is directly related to how many people want to be in that area to follwo the footfall or rather chances of better business income or desire to be there.
More companies desire to be in higher spend areas if retail. Unfortunately most retail is now on its arse, but rates arent.

It is a fact that business rates are higher in desireable areas than non for the equivalent properties, barriing anomolies., and economic performance generally being better in large cities.

There are lots of car parks in attractive areas which are empty "overnight" but it depends what we mean by that. As an example, from posts in the past some motorhomers judge the start of "overnight" to be by around 4pm and some judge the finish to be around 10am. That would mitigate against the use of car parks frequented by commuters and, in many cases, shoppers. LAs have to balance competing needs so they will be wary about a change of use which adversely affects current usage - which is why each case has to be dealt with individuals.

If I have read it correctly your friend's car park is privately owned. He would need a caravan site licence and planning consent, much like the gentleman in this post. Whether they would be forthcoming would depend on local circumstances. It would be a non-starter, for instance, in Scarborough district because of the oft discussed planning restriction on caravan sites close to town centres. Again, each case needs dealing with on its merits.

VO revaluations happen every 5 years but that is a general revaluation which applies to all properties rather than refecting changes in trading circumstances of individual businesses. At the same time, rate poundages (now called multipliers) are normally revised down in order not to result in massive increases in bills so income (to councils and central government) from business rates does not necessarily change dramatically.
The main driver behind the current system of business rates (dating from the 1980s) was that large companies (e.g. Boots, W H Smith) wanted some guarantee of consistency between premises of similar sizes no matter where in the country they are located. That is why the government sets a national multipliers (the old system allowed councils to set poundages and they could very widely between towns).
Whilst rent (and, as a result rateable) values vary between different areas within towns that applies everywhere across the country, again not being related to trading circumstances of individual businesses. I recall a case locally a couple of years ago (when a business was rated on its premises rather than, as the owners assumed, on the type of business) which illustrates the point. If a Middlesbrough car park was to be re-purposed as an aire it is likely that it would be in a lower rated area of town (there is currently only one lorry park designated as suitable for motorhome parking (not camping).

 

[GJH]

All French car parks aren't aire de camping cars- probably less than 10%. they ve chosen ones that are suitable because of their location or aspect.

Done properly Its also a good way to manage motorhome traffic away from medieval town centers, like the pillock who tried to drive through the arch at Alnwick recently.

I agree - and that reinforces my point. We have seen, all too often, petitions and forum posts from people who do not realise that not all places are suitable.

 

[Tombola]

There are lots of car parks in attractive areas which are empty "overnight" but it depends what we mean by that. As an example, from posts in the past some motorhomers judge the start of "overnight" to be by around 4pm and some judge the finish to be around 10am. That would mitigate against the use of car parks frequented by commuters and, in many cases, shoppers. LAs have to balance competing needs so they will be wary about a change of use which adversely affects current usage - which is why each case has to be dealt with individuals.

If I have read it correctly your friend's car park is privately owned. He would need a caravan site licence and planning consent, much like the gentleman in this post. Whether they would be forthcoming would depend on local circumstances. It would be a non-starter, for instance, in Scarborough district because of the oft discussed planning restriction on caravan sites close to town centres. Again, each case needs dealing with on its merits.

VO revaluations happen every 5 years but that is a general revaluation which applies to all properties rather than refecting changes in trading circumstances of individual businesses. At the same time, rate poundages (now called multipliers) are normally revised down in order not to result in massive increases in bills so income (to councils and central government) from business rates does not necessarily change dramatically.
The main driver behind the current system of business rates (dating from the 1980s) was that large companies (e.g. Boots, W H Smith) wanted some guarantee of consistency between premises of similar sizes no matter where in the country they are located. That is why the government sets a national multipliers (the old system allowed councils to set poundages and they could very widely between towns).
Whilst rent (and, as a result rateable) values vary between different areas within towns that applies everywhere across the country, again not being related to trading circumstances of individual businesses. I recall a case locally a couple of years ago (when a business was rated on its premises rather than, as the owners assumed, on the type of business) which illustrates the point. If a Middlesbrough car park was to be re-purposed as an aire it is likely that it would be in a lower rated area of town (there is currently only one lorry park designated as suitable for motorhome parking (not camping).

Informative,
thanks

 

[AlunandFelicie]

I agree - and that reinforces my point. We have seen, all too often, petitions and forum posts from people who do not realise that not all places are suitable.

I would imagine places next to traveller sites would be less than busy overnight

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