VW T5 won’t start

[Landy Andy]

I can’t see the benefit of playing with a second tank, when injection engines have the ability to attach a fuel pressure gauge to it, and that will tell you if you have fuel and at what pressure.

I think you will find that most engines that require the injectors coding, will allow the engine to start before coding them in, it just won’t run well. Not all electronic injectors need coding.

 

[rod_vw]

Rod VW thanks for your response. I shall insist on having the old parts returned to my BiL. I have this evening joined the VW forum in your link.
Thanks once again.

Sorry, I keep thinking that the T5 is your not your BiL's.

 

[DerryW]

Sorry, I keep thinking that the T5 is your not your BiL's.

That’s fine.

 

[jockaneezer]

I can’t see the benefit of playing with a second tank, when injection engines have the ability to attach a fuel pressure gauge to it, and that will tell you if you have fuel and at what pressure.

That was something that I wasn't too happy with in the report, they said the rail pressure was down, but there was still leak off from the relief valve, which suggests the r/v might be passing ?
They never said if the pressure increased after fitting the new tandem pump either, unless I missed that bit ?

 

[DerryW]

That was something that I wasn't too happy with in the report, they said the rail pressure was down, but there was still leak off from the relief valve, which suggests the r/v might be passing ?
They never said if the pressure increased after fitting the new tandem pump either, unless I missed that bit ?

Hello Jockaneezer.
I will ask VW about the rail pressure and relief valve.

I know it isn’t a VW, my grandson had a Ford Ranger which would only start when the engine was cold. After lots of amateur mechanics replacing all sorts of things including a full set of injectors it turn out to be the pressure relief valve at a cost of £6 from eBay.
Back to the VW, I learnt something today about the WXD engine injection system including the injectors.

Apparently the injectors work of the Cam shaft. There are no fuel pipes from the rail to the actual injectors like a traditional diesel engine

There is a channel machined into the cylinder head which carries the fuel from the pump in the tank, through the filter and tandem pump, each injector passers through the fuel channel. As the cam lob pushes onto the top of each injector it allows diesel into the cylinder, the amount of diesel is controlled by the electrical side of the injector via the ECU.

I now sound as though I know what I’m talking about However, as I’ve said before. I would assume being a large VW workshop they will know all this.

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[oldiesontour]

We had a similar fault on our LKT skidder, one of the lads misplaced the fuel filler cap, so replaced it with one of those disposable rubber gloves to keep the rain out, but one of the fingers became detached and would block the suction, but would drop off after it was left, allowing you to run it for a bit until it sucked it up again.

1. Edit, just in from the pub and as @L'Hobo says the Easy Start will only be drawn in on the induction stroke,but can still fire up prematurely, causing knocking.
2. Lots of people denigrate Easy Start as it's usually hiding or compensating for existing faults and overuse is to be discouraged, but as an aside, our old Mercedes Unimog came from the factory with a cold start feature that was a can of ether (Easy Start) that was plumbed into the inlet manifold and was operated from a lever in the cab, so I always maintain it's use is viable under certain conditions ?

So did the ford transit with the wonderful York engine ..the pump kit was sold as a modification for the early ones ..by main dealers.Fitted to later new ones ...not sure if in factory our by dealer before delivery., without it you could tow them for miles and would not start in certain conditions.
I've used for 50yrs on anything from 28cc two strokes to 10ltr tubo diesels ..with no known problems.

 

[L' Hobo]

So did the ford transit with the wonderful York engine ..the pump kit was sold as a modification for the early ones ..by main dealers.Fitted to later new ones ...not sure if in factory our by dealer before delivery., without it you could tow them for miles and would not start in certain conditions.
I've used for 50yrs on anything from 28cc two strokes to 10ltr tubo diesels ..with no known problems.

'Wonderful York engine', that's not what I called it!

In the late 70's, I started a Trucking Company, first with a type one V4 petrol LWB Transit and then after a successful year, I bought a box van diesel Transit with the York engine

Would it start well, would it hell! (Having twin starter batteries under the bonnet, should have given me a clue before I bought it)

When it eventually did start, it was gutless!

I once, early on, picked up a light house load of furniture in London, for delivery in the hills of South Wales near the end of the M4.
A Westerly gale was blowing and it took me 12 HOURS having experienced been nearly being blown over on the M4, at least a dozen times and never getting out of 3rd gear.
The delivery was so late in the, after dark, evening that the couple I was delivering to insisted I sleep in their hillside cottage overnight before travelling back the next day.
(Sadly the wind had died down on the return journey to my depot or it could have been accomplished in 2 hours. )

After that, the boxvan was used mostly as storage never anymore long distance.

Who said, working for yourself was easy?

 

[oldiesontour]

'Wonderful York engine', that's not what I called it!

In the late 70's, I started a Trucking Company, first with a type one V4 petrol LWB Transit and then after a successful year, I bought a box van diesel Transit with the York engine

Would it start well, would it hell! (Having twin starter batteries under the bonnet, should have given me a clue before I bought it)

When it eventually did start, it was gutless!

I once, early on, picked up a light house load of furniture in London, for delivery in the hills of South Wales.
A Westerly gale was blowing and it took me 12 HOURS having experienced been nearly being blown over on the M4, at least a dozen times and never getting out of 3rd gear.
The delivery was so late in the, after dark, evening that the couple I was delivering to insisted I sleep in their hillside cottage overnight before travelling back the next day.
(Sadly the wind had died down on the return journey to my depot or it could have been accomplished in 2 hours. )

After that, the boxvan was used mostly as storage never anymore long distance.

Who said, working for yourself was easy?

Had plenty of similar times not just with the York,had a Perkins 4108 in a CF Luton doing a long journey...touch and go if you got there or died of old age first ! Bedford 466 and 500 Ford 360 turbo not much better coach passengers used to shout Not another hill..even when the gradient was so shallow you couldn't see it on a motorway...a long slow slog to South of France in the early 80s( this in coaches renewed every year ( often towed most of the way to px them in Loughborough at 11 months old !

 

[ChrisL]

'Wonderful York engine', that's not what I called it!

In the late 70's, I started a Trucking Company, first with a type one V4 petrol LWB Transit and then after a successful year, I bought a box van diesel Transit with the York engine

Would it start well, would it hell! (Having twin starter batteries under the bonnet, should have given me a clue before I bought it)

When it eventually did start, it was gutless!

I once, early on, picked up a light house load of furniture in London, for delivery in the hills of South Wales near the end of the M4.
A Westerly gale was blowing and it took me 12 HOURS having experienced been nearly being blown over on the M4, at least a dozen times and never getting out of 3rd gear.
The delivery was so late in the, after dark, evening that the couple I was delivering to insisted I sleep in their hillside cottage overnight before travelling back the next day.
(Sadly the wind had died down on the return journey to my depot or it could have been accomplished in 2 hours. )

After that, the boxvan was used mostly as storage never anymore long distance.

Who said, working for yourself was easy?

I well remember struggling to get over the seven bridge in a transit full of band kit, I could have run faster

 

[DerryW]

Hello Jockaneezer.
I will ask VW about the rail pressure and relief valve.

I know it isn’t a VW, my grandson had a Ford Ranger which would only start when the engine was cold. After lots of amateur mechanics replacing all sorts of things including a full set of injectors it turn out to be the pressure relief valve at a cost of £6 from eBay.
Back to the VW, I learnt something today about the WXD engine injection system including the injectors.

Apparently the injectors work of the Cam shaft. There are no fuel pipes from the rail to the actual injectors like a traditional diesel engine

There is a channel machined into the cylinder head which carries the fuel from the pump in the tank, through the filter and tandem pump, each injector passers through the fuel channel. As the cam lob pushes onto the top of each injector it allows diesel into the cylinder, the amount of diesel is controlled by the electrical side of the injector via the ECU.

I now sound as though I know what I’m talking about However, as I’ve said before. I would assume being a large VW workshop they will know all this.

If I’ve learned anything it’s, these AXD engines are unique, unlike any other engine in the WAG

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[Abacist]

This is all virtually unbelievable in the 21st century!

 

[DerryW]

This is all virtually unbelievable in the 21st century!

Fully agree. I’m shocked that a large VW dealer workshop are unable to identify and resolve the issue on one of their products in what will be 6 months next week.

 

[L' Hobo]

Fully agree. I’m shocked that a large VW dealer workshop are unable to identify and resolve the issue on one of their products in what will be 6 months next week.

Not sure if this is helpful or not but, I was talking to an owner of a T4 yesterday about your BIL problem and he said, has he checked the fuses?
Apparently on his T4, number 15 is for ENGINE ELECTRONICS and number 18 is for FUEL PUMP.

If the T5 has similar, I presume these have already been checked but, sometimes, the simplest things are often overlooked.

NO, I'm not talking about myself!

 

[DerryW]

Not sure if this is helpful or not but, I was talking to an owner of a T4 yesterday about your BIL problem and he said, has he checked the fuses?
Apparently on his T4, number 15 is for ENGINE ELECTRONICS and number 18 is for FUEL PUMP.

If the T5 has similar, I presume these have already been checked but, sometimes, the simplest things are often overlooked.

NO, I'm not talking about myself!

Thanks L hobo. Another one for the list. Like you say. It’s sometimes the simple/easy/obvious things overlooked

 

[Landy Andy]

Hello Jockaneezer.
I will ask VW about the rail pressure and relief valve.

I know it isn’t a VW, my grandson had a Ford Ranger which would only start when the engine was cold. After lots of amateur mechanics replacing all sorts of things including a full set of injectors it turn out to be the pressure relief valve at a cost of £6 from eBay.
Back to the VW, I learnt something today about the WXD engine injection system including the injectors.

Apparently the injectors work of the Cam shaft. There are no fuel pipes from the rail to the actual injectors like a traditional diesel engine

There is a channel machined into the cylinder head which carries the fuel from the pump in the tank, through the filter and tandem pump, each injector passers through the fuel channel. As the cam lob pushes onto the top of each injector it allows diesel into the cylinder, the amount of diesel is controlled by the electrical side of the injector via the ECU.

I now sound as though I know what I’m talking about However, as I’ve said before. I would assume being a large VW workshop they will know all this.

Has the cam and crank sensor been checked, one of these two will control when the fuel is delivered, although your injectors read as being mechanical but electronically adjusted. If they are mechanical the is the injector cam correctly timed? How is it timed, belt/chain/gears? Have these slipped/altered?

I’m not finding info on a “WXD” engine.

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[rod_vw]

I’m not finding info on a “WXD” engine.

That's because its a AXD engine.

No belts or chains, it's all gears (on the flywheel end of the engine) or Gates couplings for ancillary items.

 

[Landy Andy]

That's because its a AXD engine.

No belts or chains, it's all gears (on the flywheel end of the engine) or Gates couplings for ancillary items.

Thanks for that info. Probably a good reason I couldn’t find info on it

So the timing can’t alter/slip? (Unless big issue)

So will the injector can be timed so it only does one revolution to the cranks two?
Or will it be set that the injectors fire on the correct stroke?????

 

[rod_vw]

Thanks for that info. Probably a good reason I couldn’t find info on it

So the timing can’t alter/slip? (Unless big issue)

So will the injector can be timed so it only does one revolution to the cranks two?
Or will it be set that the injectors fire on the correct stroke?????

Hi Landy Andy you may like to have a look at the attached which will give you a good overview of this VW engine.

DerryW has been running this query on the VW T6 Forum and another member on there published this VW Self Study Program.

You may like to follow it all on that forum

 

[Landy Andy]

Hi Landy Andy you may like to have a look at the attached which will give you a good overview of this VW engine.

DerryW has been running this query on the VW T6 Forum and another member on there published this VW Self Study Program.

You may like to follow it all on that forum

Great. Thank you. Will check it out over the weekend.

 

[Bertilak]

Hi Landy Andy you may like to have a look at the attached which will give you a good overview of this VW engine.

DerryW has been running this query on the VW T6 Forum and another member on there published this VW Self Study Program.

You may like to follow it all on that forum

the other oddity was the T5's 5 cyl motor was also one bank of the V10 fitted to early Porsche cayennes; they wanted something special for their first diesel, to avoid diluting the brand...
You can imagine the full cam drive gear train - and is easy to see why it wasn't long lived!

I've always assumed that the cam-driven unit injector (PD) was doomed because there are too bulky to fit in the middle of a 4 valve head layout, even if you could arrange rockers for the valves. This would limit power, efficiency, and emissions.

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[DerryW]

I have this morning met with the VW technician, who explained in some detail along with hand written diagrams showing everything they had done to date. But it will only start for a few seconds by spraying brake cleaner into it. If they continue to spray it will run for as long as they spray. But he said this should only be done if like in their case they were trying to take a reading which could only be done with the engine running.

They mentioned that a few years back these particular engines (WXD) suffered with cracks in between the injector galleries in the cylinder head, these were repaired under VW warranty.

Below is a summary of what they've done, starting at the fuel tank.
Due to petrol (c15%) was added to the tank by BiL thinking the derv had frozen (he used to do that 30 years ago when a lorry driver)
They disconnected and removed the fuel tank, removed fuel pump, flushed it and all the pipes to ensure there were no blockages.
Cleaned and tested the pump. All okay, refitted tank.
Pressure tested the Tandem pump and found very low pressure. Replaced Tandem Pump and check pressure 8.5bar, Vehicle still would not start only with a squirt of brake cleaner but would not continue to run.
Removed fuel rail, thoroughly cleaned out both inlet and return sides. Vehicle would still not start on its own, but would start and run for a few seconds using brake cleaner.
Injectors removed and sent off for testing by Colchester Diesel Injection Services. All 5 injectors failed test, 3 mechanical and 2 electrical. Set of 5 fully factory refinished injectors fitted, vehicle would still only start by spraying brake cleaner into it.
Fitted new battery to avoid voltage drop when cranking.
All items below checked and tested.
Fuel pressure release valve.
Fuel filter replaced
Fuel pressure sensor.
Injector wiring loom cleaned and checked. All Okay.
Can & Crank sensors including wiring check test all okay.
Compression test, all 5 cylinders okay.
As the vehicle has had issues with the immobiliser in the past this was checked, no issues found.
So in-spite of all the above it still won’t start without spraying brake cleaner into it.

The next step should the BiL decide to go ahead is: replace the cylinder head including all gaskets and seals. Even after doing this, the VW workshop will not guarantee this will solve the problem and the vehicle will start and run.

So my question to all you knowledgeable people is: have you heard of the problem mentioned above by VW of cracking in the cylinder head between the injector galleries.

The current cost are in excess of £6k.

VW are in the process of getting the cost to replace the cylinder head.

Thanks again for listening to the woes and advice given.

If it were my Van I think it would have been sold for scrap, but it has sentimental value to my BiL. The thong is, It is a bloody camper van.

 

[ChrisL]

They mentioned that a few years back these particular engines (WXD) suffered with cracks in between the injector galleries in the cylinder head, these were repaired under VW warranty.

Did you mean AXD? And Is it possible to die penetrant test the injector galleries to check for cracks before removing the head?
If you're not familiar with DP testing.