Urgent help needed,

[michelle wilson 76]

Hi guys , we have recently purchased a 2004 eura mobil 2.8 jtd fiat ducato base . We are due to leave the UK on Friday, heading for the south of spain , previous owner had it sat in a field for god knows how long.
The Vehicle has been serviced , and had a new mot when we bought it . BUT whilst husband was taking it for a drive recently , he noticed that whilst braking, he is getting juddering through the brake pedal.
The whole of the underneath has been stripped and cleaned , numerous times trying to find the issue.
We have now replaced the suspension , brake shoes , discs , pads, drums , brakes have been bled a couple of times now , and a diagnostic test picked up no faults on the van or abs unit, we are now about to replace the master cylinder , in a desperate attempt to try and save our holiday ,and sanity .
I was wondering if anyone has had any similar problems , or any suggestions as to the cause ..

 

[tinkertaylor]

Have you had your wheels balanced/ checked ?

 

[Silver-Fox]

Everything that has been put on is New. And all the new parts were inspected and measured just incase, as I know they can still have defects. Im not sure about the seals , apologies for asking , but which seals are you referring to .as I don't drive and have no real understanding of everything that has been done

Calliper seals.

If you have refurbished callipers it all would all have been done.

 

[L' Hobo]

Clamp off each brake in turn testing (carefully) between each clamping. If the vibration is caused by one of the brake assemblies you will identify the culprit.

I think they have already done that see post 106?

 

[tonyidle]

So they have. In which case only the ABS is left. Rather than removing fuses I'd disconnect all electrical connections to the ABS unit as a next step.

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[Silver-Fox]

I'm told its a can either be a long judder / pulse or lots of little juddering pulses if tha makes sence

If the brake pedal pulses with the abs disconnected I’d be looking at the discs/front end.

I know you say it’s all new but manufacturing tolerances etc

It’s rare to get pedal pulsing on drum brakes so front end for me.

 

[michelle wilson 76]

Another silly question, the driver cannot be confusing ABS action for juddering can they? ABS will release and apply you brakes if any wheels start locking. As everything has been renewed and therefore the brakes should be super efficient, could this be what's happening?

Good question,, I Have asked him , and he doesn't think that this is the case , even with abs disabled he still gets the juddering ,

 

[Silver-Fox]

So they have. In which case only the ABS is left. Rather than removing fuses I'd disconnect all electrical connections to the ABS unit as a next step.

Yep I suggested that, not sure if it’s been unplugged or just disconnected via fuse.

 

[treblid]

the new tyres have been balanced,

Did you get them rechecked?

 

[michelle wilson 76]

If the brake pedal pulses with the abs disconnected I’d be looking at the discs/front end.

I know you say it’s all new but manufacturing tolerances etc

It’s rare to get pedal pulsing on drum brakes so front end for me.

Thats what we thought as well , that the issue would be on the front . But the van was juddering on the way home , after we purchased it. We have discs on the front , and disc and drums on the rear.

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[michelle wilson 76]

Did you get them rechecked?

Yes all re checked.

 

[tonyidle]

Yep I suggested that, not sure if it’s been unplugged or just disconnected via fuse.

It was just the fuse. Unplugging ensures there can be no electrical input whatsoever.

 

[tinkertaylor]

Take the front wheels off (it is front wheel drive) and stick it on axle stands, then run it in 1 st and see if you get the vibrations. This way you now if its wheel or brake related.

I have in the past purchased brake discs , brand new, that were warped from the start. It took 6 months to find the issue, you just assume brand new means they have no issues but sometimes they do, they were Brembo from GSF.

 

[michelle wilson 76]

Clamp off each brake in turn testing (carefully) between each clamping. If the vibration is caused by one of the brake assemblies you will identify the culprit.

Morning , I believe that is the test that they carried out on Friday, it resulted in the front nearside caliper seizing , getting very hot and stinking and smoking the street out . then it was removed , and tested again , but still had the juddering .

 

[michelle wilson 76]

It was just the fuse. Unplugging ensures there can be no electrical input whatsoever.

Thankyou ,I will tell them to try that.

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[Jim Chisnell]

l would advise getting your discs skimmed on the vehicle with a garage who have Procut it will take out any imbalance you have on discs, slight bearing wear or drive shafts, even when you have fitted new discs sometimes this can cure brake pedal judder, only suggesting as l have had similar experience and this procedure cured the problem.

 

[michelle wilson 76]

Calliper seals.

If you have refurbished callipers it all would all have been done.

Replacing the calipers is on the list of to do's . But they were all cleaned and inspected.

 

[michelle wilson 76]

l would advise getting your discs skimmed on the vehicle with a garage who have Procut it will take out any imbalance you have on discs, slight bearing wear or drive shafts, even when you have fitted new discs sometimes this can cure brake pedal judder, only suggesting as l have had similar experience and this procedure cured the problem.

Thankyou for your reply , I am noting down any and all suggestions , and I am so grateful to you all ,

 

[Clive Beeza]

l would advise getting your discs skimmed on the vehicle with a garage who have Procut it will take out any imbalance you have on discs, slight bearing wear or drive shafts, even when you have fitted new discs sometimes this can cure brake pedal judder, only suggesting as l have had similar experience and this procedure cured the problem.

l would advise getting your discs skimmed on the vehicle with a garage who have Procut it will take out any imbalance you have on discs, slight bearing wear or drive shafts, even when you have fitted new discs sometimes this can cure brake pedal judder, only suggesting as l have had similar experience and this procedure cured the problem.

Jim,
The discs are new, and this judder was present when the old discs were fitted
the possibility of any disc run out can be easily checked, with a fixed pointer
on the disc face and simply rotating by hand,
If any run run out is detected then the discs should be replaced by the supplier
not skimmed as suggested, as it would invalidate the makers warranty

 

[Clive Beeza]

Thankyou for your reply , I am noting down any and all suggestions , and I am so grateful to you all ,

Hi again Michelle,
We are all trying desparately to help you solve this persistent fault,
have been mulling over everything that has been said,
been mechanic all my life, (retired now)
can you say whether the pulsing/vibrations are (ONLY)
felt through the brake pedal ?
OR are they also felt through the steering wheel.?
OR possibly even through the van body in general ?

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[ElliesBoss]

Michelle. Hope you've got to the root cause by now but if not when you said in your o.p that you had replaced the front suspension was that everything? Struts, top mounts, bushes etc, etc?

 

[michelle wilson 76]

Hi again Michelle,
We are all trying desparately to help you solve this persistent fault,
have been mulling over everything that has been said,
been mechanic all my life, (retired now)
can you say whether the pulsing/vibrations are (ONLY)
felt through the brake pedal ?
OR are they also felt through the steering wheel.?
OR possibly even through the van body in general ?

Hi Clive, its only felt through the brake pedal .

 

[michelle wilson 76]

Michelle. Hope you've got to the root cause by now but if not when you said in your o.p that you had replaced the front suspension was that everything? Struts, top mounts, bushes etc, etc?

No only the shock absorbers were replaced ,

 

[Zakattak]

May be taking you up a garden path but is the brake vacuum pump ok?

 

[michelle wilson 76]

Jim,
The discs are new, and this judder was present when the old discs were fitted
the possibility of any disc run out can be easily checked, with a fixed pointer
on the disc face and simply rotating by hand,
If any run run out is detected then the discs should be replaced by the supplier
not skimmed as suggested, as it would invalidate the makers warranty

Hi Jim, we had the new discs checked with a tdi gauge .

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[michelle wilson 76]

May be taking you up a garden path but is the brake vacuum pump ok?

That sounds like a completely new suggestion,

 

[ChrisL]

Have a look at the front subframe mountings, if these are worn/perished they may be the cause of your vibration under braking.

 

[michelle wilson 76]

Have a look at the front subframe mountings, if these are worn/perished they may be the cause of your vibration under braking.

Thankyou for your message , I have added that to my list .

 

[Jim Chisnell]

Jim,
The discs are new, and this judder was present when the old discs were fitted
the possibility of any disc run out can be easily checked, with a fixed pointer
on the disc face and simply rotating by hand,
If any run run out is detected then the discs should be replaced by the supplier
not skimmed as suggested, as it would invalidate the makers warra

Jim,
The discs are new, and this judder was present when the old discs were fitted
the possibility of any disc run out can be easily checked, with a fixed pointer
on the disc face and simply rotating by hand,
If any run run out is detected then the discs should be replaced by the supplier
not skimmed as suggested, as it would invalidate the makers warranty

Hi Clive please read this

Brake disc skimming news for Pro-Cut lathes - Skim My Discs

Keep up to date with the latest information on brake skimming service stations and using the Pro-Cut on-car brake lathe.

skimmydiscs.co.uk

 

[Clive Beeza]

Hi Clive please read this

Brake disc skimming news for Pro-Cut lathes - Skim My Discs

Keep up to date with the latest information on brake skimming service stations and using the Pro-Cut on-car brake lathe.

skimmydiscs.co.uk

Hi Jim,
I have no argument with anything said in the article.
except that in Michelle's case, the newly fitted discs
have been checked for runout with a DTI gauge,
so in this case disc runout has been eliminated as the cause,
were they the original (old) discs, they may very well benefit from a skim.

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[Tony50]

I don't really like suggestions to much , but, as time is running quickly it may be something as simple as the muck on the castlalation / cogs which the ABS is getting the wrong message, ars you sure they are spotlessly clean , if a wrong message is given the Brake Pedal will vibrate, I've experienced vehicles coming into my garage where the owner has replaced a outer driveshaft joint boot and failed to clean off grease castlalation/ cogs and the brake pedal vibrated, both buckled discs or brake drums all have a different feeling through the brake pedal plus so do grease foreign matter on brake cogs