Unrolling electrical hook up cables: safety concerns?

[redchad]

Question for everyone! We’re currently in Germany and have noticed that certainly the Germans but also Norwegian and Italian vans are all using roll up hookup cables as in the picture. Now at home were constantly warned about fully unrolling your cable as it could get to hit and burst into flames. So who’s right and who’s wrong as the Germans don’t seem concerned?

 

[The Old Man]

They have cooler electricity in Europe. Comes out of the power station pre-frozen.

Surely electricity generated from a wind turbine will be cooler than that from burning coal?

 

[RobbyMClark]

I think I would position the reel away from the van, just in case.

Was on a site in Spain 2 weeks ago and a young German couple had the coil inside the window of their Wooshbank !!!

 

[bigtwin]

Resistance increases when a cable is coiled due to inductance…

There is some reluctance to accept that fact.

Ian

 

[EuroTrotters]

Germans next door to us here in playa montroig have the same thick coiled up EHU Lead.

But they don’t wash, clean, shower in the motorhome. It’s also got those seasonal registration plates, so will probably going into hibernation from next month.

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[Soycd]

I’ve never had a uk van only German ones. Never had elec boiler etc. I’ve always used one of those ‘kabeltrommel’ as they are called in Germany. Have used it rolled up and unrolled. What happens if it gets hot is it cuts out and you have to let it cool and press the reset switch on the side. I think it’s called a thermal cut out. They also have this on the side.

 

[mitzimad]

I'm a maintenance electrician but like the cobbler's kids that go unshod, I occasionally break rules, take shortcuts, .. eg.. stick wires in 13a sockets with match sticks, shocking, I know..

Anyways, one day I using a 4 inch angle grinder with a 15 mt extension cable rated at 10A .. being lazy I left about 10 mt on the real.. thinking it's only a small current .. should be fine.. within 15 mins I saw smoke coming from the extension reel.. after unplugging I tried to unreel but the cable had melted, welding the coils together!

Lesson well and truly learned.. I should have known better..

Don't be tempted to use coiled up because it's only a 'low amperage EHU' , my angle grinder was only a few amps.. play it safe, don't do as other's do , uncoil , and lay any surplus along the ground under the van out of harms way..

your cable reel probably wasnt as hot as the site safety man who caught me with my 240 lead light taped in to the top of a 10 kva site transformer using the connection method above

 

[Jev88]

You can test this yourself if you want to.
Buy a cheap electrical wind up extension with thermal cut out reset button.
Plug in and then try and power a vacuum cleaner and a hair dryer (ie high wattage). The tightly coupled extension should warm up and trip. Uncoil same wire when cooler after give minutes and everything is okay.

 

[EuroTrotters]

Germans next door to us here in playa montroig have the same thick coiled up EHU Lead.

But they don’t wash, clean, shower in the motorhome. It’s also got those seasonal registration plates, so will probably going into hibernation from next month.

 

[Widge]

Also remember that what it is wound on will make a difference, if the reel has a big chunky metal axle that will also change the characteristics. Also a three way fridge will probably draw between 1 and 2 amps, add that to your charger, tv, notebook etc it is suprising how it all ads up.

I just have a couple of shorter leads that i just manually coil up, usualy one or both joined together is enough for most sites.

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[The Old Man]

Was on a site in Spain 2 weeks ago and a young German couple had the coil inside the window of their Wooshbank !!!

Central Heating?

 

[Shrimp]

The French seem to use coiled cables a lot.
I’m not an electrician but maybe the cable and the amount of power going thru it makes a difference as in some people don’t run high powered cooking appliances.
If you’re only running the fridge, the hot water (only turns on/off) kettle, most of the time it wouldn’t matter that your cable is coiled or not!
Our cable is always laid out flat…..when we use it!

 

[RobbyMClark]

Central Heating?

They did have an electric hot plate and kettle.
She was hot enough not to need heating in the van.

 

[scotjimland]

only running the fridge, the hot water (only turns on/off) kettle, most of the time

3 way Fridge 120w
Hot Water 800w
Kettle ? say 800W
Plus
Charger 120w

Total 1840 w div. by 230v = 8Amps

I know they may not be all on together, but that illustrates how loads mount up, and more than many suspect, or allow for..

these are all low wattage items, but 8amps
is more than enough to overheat a coiled cable

 

[DDJC]

This is one of those "for the sake of five more minutes" issues.

We carry a 5m, 10m and 30m cable, all 2.5mm (think there is a 20m in the shed as well!!) We don't use cable winder reels, just loop it and secure. In use, we always separate the coils if there are any.

IF there is an EHU where we stop, we use it for water heating and the fridge (sometimes two fridges). We would also use the electric kettle, rather than the gas. In hotter climes, the aircon might be on. In colder, we would use the EHU for heating too.

To me it's simple. How long does it take to coil the cable up after use? I know 2.5mm is heavy, but how often can you not spare five extra mins packing up to move? Compare that against a catastrophe that is easily preventable.

But I completely agree with the OP. Many continental Motorhomers use fiddly little 1.5mm cables, neatly (tightly) wound round a small DIY cable drum. . Mrs DDJC always points it out to me, saying "don't they know?" I've stood in a campsite reception and seen them loan/hire out cables. Yep, 1.5mm cables tightly wound on a reel. You would think that if they are loaning or hiring something out, they would provide a better cable, and not on a winder? They would be liable, surely?

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[Bodoge]

I'm a maintenance electrician but like the cobbler's kids that go unshod, I occasionally break rules, take shortcuts, .. eg.. stick wires in 13a sockets with match sticks, shocking, I know..

Anyways, one day I using a 4 inch angle grinder with a 15 mt extension cable rated at 10A .. being lazy I left about 10 mt on the real.. thinking it's only a small current .. should be fine.. within 15 mins I saw smoke coming from the extension reel.. after unplugging I tried to unreel but the cable had melted, welding the coils together!

Lesson well and truly learned.. I should have known better..

Don't be tempted to use coiled up because it's only a 'low amperage EHU' , my angle grinder was only a few amps.. play it safe, don't do as other's do , uncoil , and lay any surplus along the ground under the van out of harms way..

As a fellow sparky, retired, the thing I find most distressing is the roll up extension leads that have a low csa and 4 outlets on the drum, no mention anywhere to fully extend the lead before use, on the drum. Another pet hate is the 13A plug, on a 60W table lamp with a 3A fuse because it's the cable rating. Personally I wouldn't entertain any extension lead below 3 core 2.5mm csa. I have in my archive box a 30A connector block with black pvc insulation that jointed the neutral to an oven, the cables were loose and the installation melted and run off the brass bit, so tighten ALL terminals then tug them as all good sparkies do.

 

[scotjimland]

Yep, 1.5mm cables tightly wound on a reel. You would think that if they are loaning or hiring something out, they would provide a better cable,

1.5mm 3 core flexible cable is rated at 16A ..

it's what I use, about half the weight and less bulky than 2.5mm ..

only difference is volt drop on a 25mt run, but it is minimal and doesn't affect modern electronics ..

 

[DDJC]

1.5mm 3 core flexible cable is rated at 16A ..

it's what I use, about half the weight and less bulky than 2.5mm ..

only difference is volt drop on a 25mt run, but it is minimal and doesn't affect modern electronics ..

I bow to your professional knowledge but still feel safer with 2.5mm

 

[Guigsy]

1.5mm 3 core flexible cable is rated at 16A ..

it's what I use, about half the weight and less bulky than 2.5mm ..

only difference is volt drop on a 25mt run, but it is minimal and doesn't affect modern electronics ..

The voltage drop is because it's got higher resistance, so generating more heat. And they'll wind smaller on to a reel, increasing the density of that heat. I'd expect a 1.5mm² cable on a reel to be significantly more of an overheating risk.

 

[Bodoge]

Surely electricity generated from a wind turbine will be cooler than that from burning coal?

Wind up, yes

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[tonyidle]

Resistance increases when a cable is coiled due to inductance…

Inductance should play no part in this case. Inductance from the coiled L will be cancelled by the coiled N and anyway a metal core would need to be involved.

 

[Revolvor]

Should have seen how the electrics are in Oman

Where/when were you working in Oman?

 

[Bodoge]

I bow to your professional knowledge but still feel safer with 2.5mm

I'm with you, general trade standard, 1.5mm csa cable is for lighting, 2.5mm csa cable is for power, in domestic installations. To quote a rating in amperage is subjective with regards to insulation methods and installation locations, 1.5mm rating for instance can range from 10A to 20A. dependant on uses. I was told as an apprentice, safety wise the cable can't be too big but it can be too small.

 

[scotjimland]

The voltage drop is because it's got higher resistance, so generating more heat. And they'll wind smaller on to a reel, increasing the density of that heat. I'd expect a 1.5mm² cable on a reel to be significantly more of an overheating risk.

I was talking generally about cable sizes, not about "on a drum" which I don't use'

Irrespective of cable size, it should never be used wound onto a drum or reel.

 

[scotjimland]

To quote a rating in amperage is subjective with regards to insulation methods and installation locations, 1.5mm rating for instance can range from 10A to 20A. dependant on uses

correct.. but we are discussing a hook up lead that is not buried in the ground, clipped to a rafter or run in conduit .. and irrespective of size. should not be used coiled..

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[meanders]

Coiled cables produce additional heat due to an inductive loop. Uncoil always - SOP

Bang on. Inductive loops also create a magnetic field as well as heat over and above what the resistance of the cable will do.

If Germans want to take the risk that's their call. Also when uncoiled, don't leave it all coiled the same way under van. It was the cause of a lot of interference on a TV in a van I went to help someone in on a rally. Spread out the loops, problem solved.

 

[Widge]

1.5mm 3 core flexible cable is rated at 16A ..

it's what I use, about half the weight and less bulky than 2.5mm ..

only difference is volt drop on a 25mt run, but it is minimal and doesn't affect modern electronics ..

But i suspect that is the cable running at its maximum temperature (probably pretty hot) at an air temperature of probably about 30°C, not a black cable running across a hard surface in full sun when it is already 40°C in the shade. And never wound on a reel.

Ok i agree you are unlikely to draw 16A in a camper.

 

[Soycd]

This is the one we have. I think I bought it in a branch of Fritz Berger quite a while back in Germany. It's certainly much more robust than another drum cable I have which is more for home use. The outer diameter of the cable is 10mm. I know very little about electricity but as it came from a specialist motorhome/camping store I'm assuming its intended use is for motorhomes/caravans.

 

[Guigsy]

This is the one we have. I think I bought it in a branch of Fritz Berger quite a while back in Germany. It's certainly much more robust than another drum cable I have which is more for home use. The outer diameter of the cable is 10mm. I know very little about electricity but as it came from a specialist motorhome/camping store I'm assuming its intended use is for motorhomes/caravans.
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So that suggests only 4A when fully reeled.

 

[scotjimland]

This is the one we have. I think I bought it in a branch of Fritz Berger quite a while back in Germany. It's certainly much more robust than another drum cable I have which is more for home use. The outer diameter of the cable is 10mm. I know very little about electricity but as it came from a specialist motorhome/camping store I'm assuming its intended use is for motorhomes/caravans.

as mentioned above, only 4A when reeled ,

they also warn of overheating and to let it cool down before resetting the thermal overload

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[Guigsy]

as mentioned above, only 4A when reeled ,

they also warn of overheating and to let it cool down before resetting the thermal overload

So they know that people will ignore the reeled limit, hence the thermal cut-out.