Twin axle or single-Newbie needs help.

[Monkeymatt1]

Evening all
We are new to MotorHomes but did have a twin axle caravan.We didn't fancy taking the caravan abroad so have sold it and are now looking for a Motorhome.
Budget should stretch to a 2008-2010 plate.
My main concern is the length of the twin axle/tag versions.I have seen other Q&A on the subject.
Most seem to be 8.5-8.9 mtr,so what are people's experience's travelling around France in one of these?
I am not too worried about the toll charges but i am concerned about getting to the stop over sites and not getting in ,especially as we have 2 young children.
How is it on a turning circle against a single axle?
I read something by one person that he thought the interior wears less in a tag because there is less body roll.Any thoughts on that?
Also, I have looked at a couple,one a Bessecar and the other Kontiki.Is there a better make to go for?
We really need one with a garage as we need the storage.We could go for a single axle with bunkbeds at the end over garage if there is such a thing but i haven't found one yet that is 5/6 berth.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated as we are really struggling with this.
Finally,in say 10 years' time when it's showing its age would a twin axle or single sell better?..i ask as 20 year old tag ones don't seem to age so well.
Many thanks in advance.
Matt

 

[Monkeymatt1]

Does anyone know or have experience with this model?

Lacks storage possibly but ticks most boxes layout/engine size and Auto.

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[Monkeymatt1]

No it isn’t. Same train as the cars, just in the single deck carriages at the front half of the train with the coaches. Cars upto 1.85 metres high (I think) go in the double deck carriages at the rear half of the train.

The other service (caged carriages) are freight.

ok thank you.

 

[cyberyacht]

Sell the children to a chimney sweep. You will then have the cash to buy a smaller motorhome of your dreams. Seriously, German built vans are generally better quality than UK ones. UK manufacturers mostly apply caravan design thinking to motorhomes so layouts aren't usually as good. I'm not sure that caravans aren't a better choice with young families. Big motorhomes don't lend themselves to pottering around places and unless you start towing a car, your mobility once on site is restricted.

 

[Guigsy]

Does anyone know or have experience with this model?

Lacks storage possibly but ticks most boxes layout/engine size and Auto.

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It's only got 4 belted seats. Adding more is very difficult and expensive. Vans with more belted seats are rare!

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[Monkeymatt1]

Thank you for your advice.We did have a Caravan but the prep was putting us off going away for just the weekends,lots of cars to shift about on drive,blocking the road on reversing etc
We had a Mercedes Vito with a very long twin axle caravan .Motorhomes seem to be get up and go but yes the restrictions on arrival certainly abroad were a concern.Hoping we can map out routes staying at various sites along the way. Don't really want to tow a car,might as well get a caravan.
Hoping not to sell the kids as we only have around 5 years with them ,then I expect they will want to go on their own holidays so thinking short term for them then wife and I will just go it alone until the motorhome collapses on the drive one day.

 

[Monkeymatt1]

It's only got 4 belted seats. Adding more is very difficult and expensive. Vans with more belted seats are rare!

There is only 4 of us so should work and we don't have any friends lol

 

[rb62]

What you really need to know is how much it weighs as it is,stood on their yard,then you can work out how much payload you'll have.

 

[Monkeymatt1]

What you really need to know is how much it weighs as it is,stood on their yard,then you can work out how much payload you'll have.

States MTPLM: 4250kg.....does that mean unladen?

 

[rb62]

States MTPLM: 4250kg.....does that mean unladen?

No,that's the 'Maximum Technically Permissible Laden mass' which is why you need to know what it weighs as it is,so you can find out the available payload i.e.everything that you need to put in! fuel,gas bottles if it hasn't got any,yourselves,clothing etc.

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[pappajohn]

No, that's the fully laden mass......that's everything right down to the last pair of socks.
It cannot weigh more.

 

[Monkeymatt1]

No,that's the 'Maximum Technically Permissible Laden mass' which is why you need to know what it weighs as it is,so you can find out the available payload i.e.everything that you need to put in! fuel,gas bottles if it hasn't got any,yourselves,clothing etc.

Well i'm carrying a bit of timber but rest of us are diddy.I will try and find out.Is it normally displayed somewhere on the cab?

 

[cmcardle75]

Be clear about what you mean by the available axle configurations. Here follows are some generalisations. There will be lots of exceptions, so check the numbers on any specific vehicle.

"Single rear wheel" will have 2 axles, with a single wheel on each side. They will typically be around 3500kg and usually front wheel drive, although rear wheel drive, or even four wheel drive are available, if rare. They will have medium traction in muddy conditions (typically about 45% driven weight if FWD). Even if over 3500kg, you can often get cheaper toll costs, as they won't know the permitted weight and just assume it is lighter. Towing ability is usually average, but variable, depending on the chassis modifications.

"Tag axles" will have 3 axles, with a single wheel on each side. These will typically be well over 3500kg and front wheel drive. They will have poor traction in muddy conditions (typically about 35% driven weight). In some countries, the extra axle significantly increases toll costs, as no-one will believe it is under 3500kg and the extra axle is often part of the charging structure. Towing capability is usually very limited.

"Dual rear wheel" will have 2 axles, but the rear axle will have two wheels bolted to each other on each side. They will typically be well over 3500kg and rear wheel drive. They will have very good traction in muddy conditions (typically about 65% driven weight). You might get away with the cheaper 500kg tolls. Towing ability is usually excellent, often 3000kg or greater. (Often limited to 7500kg GTW for legal reasons, rather than technical ones).

Anything over 3500kg requires a C1 (or C) licence. Check your actual licence before buying! (DVLA often conveniently "loses" your entitlements and then refuses to restore them).

 

[Monkeymatt1]

Be clear about what you mean by the available axle configurations. Here follows are some generalisations. There will be lots of exceptions, so check the numbers on any specific vehicle.

"Single rear wheel" will have 2 axles, with a single wheel on each side. They will typically be around 3500kg and usually front wheel drive, although rear wheel drive, or even four wheel drive are available, if rare. They will have medium traction in muddy conditions (typically about 45% driven weight if FWD). Even if over 3500kg, you can often get cheaper toll costs, as they won't know the permitted weight and just assume it is lighter. Towing ability is usually average, but variable, depending on the chassis modifications.

"Tag axles" will have 3 axles, with a single wheel on each side. These will typically be well over 3500kg and front wheel drive. They will have poor traction in muddy conditions (typically about 35% driven weight). In some countries, the extra axle significantly increases toll costs, as no-one will believe it is under 3500kg and the extra axle is often part of the charging structure. Towing capability is usually very limited.

"Dual rear wheel" will have 2 axles, but the rear axle will have two wheels bolted to each other on each side. They will typically be well over 3500kg and rear wheel drive. They will have very good traction in muddy conditions (typically about 65% driven weight). You might get away with the cheaper 500kg tolls. Towing ability is usually excellent, often 3000kg or greater. (Often limited to 7500kg GTW for legal reasons, rather than technical ones).

Anything over 3500kg requires a C1 (or C) licence. Check your actual licence before buying! (DVLA often conveniently "loses" your entitlements and then refuses to restore them).

Thank you for the info.We did look at Transit Kentucky,that had twin rear wheels.They seem to be a lot cheaper but i guess there is a good reason for that.
So if most are 3500kg and the one we are looking at 4250kg should give us 750kg to play with,is that right?....bet your laughing right now...!
Is that a reasonable amount for a 4 person family,bikes,dinghy,crisps etc?

 

[Guigsy]

Thank you for the info.We did look at Transit Kentucky,that had twin rear wheels.They seem to be a lot cheaper but i guess there is a good reason for that.
So if most are 3500kg and the one we are looking at 4250kg should give us 750kg to play with,is that right?....bet your laughing right now...!
Is that a reasonable amount for a 4 person family,bikes,dinghy,crisps etc?

This advert (which may be using poor info) suggests when it was sold as a 3850kg plated weight, it had ~400kg of payload.
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400kg is tiny. A full fuel tank, full water tank, the driver and passenger and nothing else eats most of that. And that's before you consider things like double gas bottles, awnings, spare wheel, etc. Yours might also have a heavier engine and gearbox...

However, the one you are looking at has been up-plated to 4250kg. So you've probably got roughly 800kg of payload to play with, which isn't tons for 4 people, but it is useable.

Bottom line is, there's no easy way to get find the payload of a vehicle, or how close you are to its weight limit, without sticking it on a weighbridge.

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[rb62]

Well i'm carrying a bit of timber but rest of us are diddy.I will try and find out.Is it normally displayed somewhere on the cab?

It will be written down somewhere but it will be overly optimistic! the only way is to get them to take it to a weighbridge.

 

[cmcardle75]

Thank you for the info.We did look at Transit Kentucky,that had twin rear wheels.They seem to be a lot cheaper but i guess there is a good reason for that.
So if most are 3500kg and the one we are looking at 4250kg should give us 750kg to play with,is that right?....bet your laughing right now...!
Is that a reasonable amount for a 4 person family,bikes,dinghy,crisps etc?

I actually prefer Dual Rear Wheel. You get massively more traction for muddy fields, increased payload and rarely get extra toll costs. I reckon they're safer in a blowout, too.

And a 4250kg version of a model sold at 3500kg will have 750kg more to play with. However, you'd hope that the 3500kg had some payload as well!

In reality, it is only by actually weighing the vehicle that you can tell how much leeway you have. 750kg should be just enough for 4 large adults with bikes, although a large water tank would need to be considered if you travel with the tank full, or the payload has to include fuel as well.

 

[Monkeymatt1]

This advert (which may be using poor info) suggests when it was sold as a 3850kg plated weight, it had ~400kg of payload.
<Broken link removed>

400kg is tiny. A full fuel tank, full water tank, the driver and passenger and nothing else eats most of that. And that's before you consider things like double gas bottles, awnings, spare wheel, etc. Yours might also have a heavier engine and gearbox...

However, the one you are looking at has been up-plated to 4250kg. So you've probably got roughly 800kg of payload to play with, which isn't tons for 4 people, but it is useable.

Bottom line is, there's no easy way to get find the payload of a vehicle, or how close you are to its weight limit, without sticking it on a weighbridge.

Thank you.Is it quite easy to get a vehicle like this up-plated?

 

[JockandRita]

Thank you.Is it quite easy to get a vehicle like this up-plated?

With some MHs it's a paper exercise. With others, you might need to upgrade the tyres, and add air suspension.
To give you an idea, speak to https://www.vanweightengineering.com/ or http://www.svtech.co.uk/ , with the former being more reasonably priced.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Monkeymatt1]

With some MHs it's a paper exercise. With others, you might need to upgrade the tyres, and add air suspension.
To give you an idea, speak to https://www.vanweightengineering.com/ or http://www.svtech.co.uk/ , with the former being more reasonably priced.

Cheers,

Jock.

Thank you.
A lot of the Kontiki and Bessacarr seem to be 4250kg so if i can get one on a weighbridge (i guess that depends how far away they are from a weighbridge) and i have around 700-800 to play with then that should do us.
I will bear that advice in mind just in case the perfect one albeit the weight does come up.
I never thought it would be so hard trying to work out which way to go,no wonder some people are saying it can take a year to find the right one.

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[Abacist]

Have a look at the Burstner Argos as a possibility

 

[Speve]

Just a point on your C1 - you say you have one but not your wife - what happens if you are ill/twist your ankle/break your arm? You would need to make sure your insurance provided full recovery. Any chance your wife might get a C1?

LV= insurance on ours and they provide a driver if I’m incapacitated to get us home? Been travelling in MH a long time my wife does not drive and it’s not a major problem

 

[Speve]

Take a look at Hymer A class you can get a nice large garage with drop down double and twin or double beds at the rear over garage and go up to and over 4500kg.
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[Speve]

Here’s another.
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[Monkeymatt1]

Here’s another.
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Thank you,not sure about Left hand drive though.Are the Hymer's good to drive?

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[cmcardle75]

BTW, by coincidence, I've been booking some French campsites today. One was very keen to insist that dual rear axles were strictly forbidden (dual rear wheels on a single axle is fine). The one that insisted was a municipal site. The one that didn't mention it seems like a private family/farmer type site.

 

[Monkeymatt1]

BTW, by coincidence, I've been booking some French campsites today. One was very keen to insist that dual rear axles were strictly forbidden (dual rear wheels on a single axle is fine). The one that insisted was a municipal site. The one that didn't mention it seems like a private family/farmer type site.

As much as i would like a so called Tag i think after reading so much on this Forum i would be better off going single axle but as long as possible with a reasonable weight allowance.

 

[Guigsy]

'Good to drive' generally depends on the base vehicle (Mercedes is generally better than Ducato/Boxer/Jumper) and how much it's hauling than the motorhome brand. OK, some brands rattle a bit less, but it appears to be a bit hit and miss.

 

[Lenny HB]

Thank you for the info.We did look at Transit Kentucky,that had twin rear wheels.They seem to be a lot cheaper but i guess there is a good reason for that.
So if most are 3500kg and the one we are looking at 4250kg should give us 750kg to play with,is that right?....bet your laughing right now...!
Is that a reasonable amount for a 4 person family,bikes,dinghy,crisps etc?

Nowhere near enough, our van is 4500kg with a payload of 1350kg. It's just about right for the two of us, we have about 200kg spare, we don't carry that much stuff and the two of us aren't too heavy our combined weight is 120kg.

You have to bear in mind the payload given is for the absolutely basic van and all the options, extras aftermarket accessories all reduce the payload.

Our van came out of the factory with 200kg of options fitted some of which you can't buy the van without.
Then I added, a spare wheel, 3 x solar panels, 2 x batteries, awning, tv, inverter, and various other bits and pieces totaling around 160kg.
So now you can see the quoted payload has been reduced by 360kg.
Also there is a 5% tolerance on weight and most manufacturers use it, so your van could easily have lost another 100 to 150kg of payload,

 

[Guigsy]

Nowhere near enough, our van is 4500kg with a payload of 1350kg. It's just about right for the two of us, we have about 200kg spare, we don't carry that much stuff and the two of us aren't too heavy our combined weight is 120kg.

You have to bear in mind the payload given is for the absolutely basic van and all the options, extras aftermarket accessories all reduce the payload.

Our van came out of the factory with 200kg of options fitted some of which you can't buy the van without.
Then I added, a spare wheel, 3 x solar panels, 2 x batteries, awning, tv, inverter, and various other bits and pieces totaling around 160kg.
So now you can see the quoted payload has been reduced by 360kg.
Also there is a 5% tolerance on weight and most manufacturers use it, so your van could easily have lost another 100 to 150kg of payload,

Lenny, you do carry A LOT of stuff and your van is very well equipped. 800kg isn't loads and I'd probably pack lighter and check on a weighbridge, but it should be doable without throwing stuff overboard.

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[Lenny HB]

Lenny, you do carry A LOT of stuff and your van is very well equipped. 800kg isn't loads and I'd probably pack lighter and check on a weighbridge, but it should be doable without throwing stuff overboard.

No way will it ever work for 4 people he also said adults, 3 adults on top of the driver that is already allowed for is going to be 200 to 300 kg, 5% tolerance on van weight will often lose another 100 to 150 kg fill the water tank say another 150kg payload is soon eaten up. Then add spare wheel, awning another 75kg gone. Not much payload left.

What I was trying to point out (I was only using my van as an example) is that when buying a second hand van the difference between claimed payload and actual payload is quite different.