Track and trace yes or no

[PeteH]

The point about track and trace is that the NHS can contact you if you unknowingly have been in contact with a Covid19 infected person by phone. A matter of which would you rather have?

IF I had been in contact, then I either will get the disease or not? what difference would knowing make?. By the time they got around to telling me I have likely already infected the one person in my life who matters anyway. Having been locked in outwith of walking the dog and keeping as much space between me and the rest of humanity since the first week of March anyone else's risk from myself is Zero.

 

[PaulyP]

My neighbor and I went to meet up with another two guys in Manchester on Monday, we all worked offshore together and meet up two or three times a year ( obviously I see my neighbor more than that )
We always meet up at the moon under water (weatherspoons pub) on deansgate.
I arrived late as my wife had hospital appointments, after I had been there about an hour I said aren’t we supposed to give details when we came in, the lads said there are forms near the door as you come in, never saw anybody fill a form in so it appeared to be working well

 

[The Lobster]

I didn't say it was... I simply said that the OS has been amended, without the users consent.

Both Google and Apple amend their OS' all the time without your consent. You'll find you have no option but to accept this in their terms and conditions.

This feature is a new one they've included to support track and trace. To use it Governments have to develop an appropriate app. Johnson and chums decided they could do better themselves, spent millions on contracts with their chums, and failed. They're now trying to develop an app that uses the new Google/Apple API... as many other Governments already have. But the problem really is in the trace strategy. Using a centralised approach, as they insist in doing in England, means that in some areas (where it's hard to contact people by email/text/phone alone) the success rate is abysmal, making a resurgence a real threat. In most other countries .. including Scotland.. tracing is carried out locally so those who know the area can actually do radical things like knocking on doors.

 

[The Lobster]

. Ive never heard of such a covert software change before.
I'm not saying it's bad... just possibly unique.

Nothing covert about it at all.

Both Apple and Google published the specifications a while back - you can readily find it on the web. In fact some companies like Juniper Networks then used that to create private track and trace apps for large companies so they wouldn't have to close whole buildings down if staff reported in positive. It's well known about in the industry.

 

[Molly A]

I domwonder where the likes of MollyA gets this about the NHS being dismantled. I think that if you wanted a full scale revolution in the UK that would trigger it. Track and Trace is name and phone number which all we at our church will require.

The ' likes ' of people like me base our views on facts which are available to anyone who has a broader source of information than the headlines of the Daily Mail.
The fact that an amendment to safeguard the NHS from any inclusion in trade deals was voted out in Parliament a couple of days ago. The fact that NHS has not been removed from any possible US trade deal. The fact that significant numbers of leading members of the government have strong links and financial donations from private health care companies. The fact that our de facto leader, Dominic Cummings previously worked for a Private health care company and has links with existing organisations.The fact that creeping privatisation has been happening for the last decade.
The thought of the supine British public rousing itself for a revolution is somewhat risible, much as that would be the correct response.

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[glenn2926]

The point about track and trace is that the NHS can contact you if you unknowingly have been in contact with a Covid19 infected person by phone. A matter of which would you rather have?

I thought it’s test and trace. Where did the track bit come from?

 

[Molly A]

Molly A said:

Then you won't mind all your personal data being given to the likes of Cambridge Analytica , or your health details being given to American healthcare companies when the NHS is dismantled. Good luck with that.



More than 24 hours on and the response is deafening?

I really would appreciate further insight as to exactly why I should be concerned about my information being available, with the exception of personal financial security.

What is the big fear?

The silence was due to having other things to do with my life than spending most of it on this admittedly engrossing forum. And anyway, Gus Lopez answered your response much more eloquently than I could hope to. Thank you Gus.

 

[mikebeaches]

The silence was due to having other things to do with my life than spending most of it on this admittedly engrossing forum. And anyway, Gus Lopez answered your response much more eloquently than I could hope to. Thank you Gus.

Sadly, as I replied to him, he didn't clarify why I should be so worried?

 

[Deneb]

There is no Covid tracing app that has been installed on your phone's either with or without consent. A "library" of routines that allow software developers to create suitable apps that comply with the Android or Apple API has been added to the operating system so that third party developers can write their software to call on (use) those routines instead of each having to write their own code and completely reinvent the wheel.

It is really no different to all the library files that form part of the Windows, Linux or other operating systems running on your PCs and other devices and which are continuously being installed, updated or created whenever you accept a system update, or install new software.

They all contain various routines for software developers to utilise, saving each from having to write their own and ensuring that the size of programs and apps that you install is not unnecessarily larger than it needs to be.

Yet again some people prefer or find it easier to peddle conspiracy theories than use the computing power and software we all have access to, to fact check

 

[mikebeaches]

There is no Covid tracing app that has been installed on your phone's either with or without consent. A "library" of routines that allow software developers to create suitable apps that comply with the Android or Apple API has been added to the operating system so that third party developers can write their software to call on (use) those routines instead of each having to write their own code and completely reinvent the wheel.

It is really no different to all the library files that form part of the Windows, Linux or other operating systems running on your PCs and other devices and which are continuously being installed, updated or created whenever you accept a system update, or install new software.

They all contain various routines for software developers to utilise, saving each from having to write their own and ensuring that the size of programs and apps that you install is not unnecessarily larger than it needs to be.

Yet again some people prefer or find it easier to peddle conspiracy theories than use the computing power and software we all have access to, to fact check ☹

Point well made Deneb !

And the thread has caused me to reflect on just how many various agencies and organisations I provide personal information to, which include (but not exhaustively) the following:

Local Authority - Council Tax & Electoral Register
HMRC
Dept of Work and Pensions
Passport Office
DVLA
NHS
Bank
Building Society
Credit card providers
House insurer
Motor insurer
Travel insurer
Mobile phone provider
Internet and landline provider
TV licensing
Airlines
Ferry companies
Eurotunnel
Club memberships
Social media registrations
Hotels and campsites
And every single on-line purchase!

And I'm sure many, if not most, Funsters on here have similarly shared their information as above.

Additionally, my movements are already monitored, by my mobile phone, by surveillance cameras and, in the case of my car, onboard software.

So why should I be unduly concerned about using a Government-recommended app to help combat the coronavirus pandemic?

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[Deneb]

And anyone who is that paranoid about being located by their phones or having other personal information being made available or inferred from them should perhaps turn them off now and throw them in the bin. There is a lot of information that can be retrieved and analysed with the right justification, simply as a result of the way in which mobile telephone technology works. All it requires is an authorised data protection application to the network provider concerned and is already regularly used in serious and complex criminal investigations to add weight to other perhaps indirect evidence implicating the accused.

 

[Molly A]

Point well made Deneb !

And the thread has caused me to reflect on just how many various agencies and organisations I provide personal information to, which include (but not exhaustively) the following:

Local Authority - Council Tax & Electoral Register
HMRC
Dept of Work and Pensions
Passport Office
DVLA
NHS
Bank
Building Society
Credit card providers
House insurer
Motor insurer
Travel insurer
Mobile phone provider
Internet and landline provider
TV licensing
Airlines
Ferry companies
Eurotunnel
Club memberships
Social media registrations
Hotels and campsites
And every single on-line purchase!

And I'm sure many, if not most, Funsters on here have similarly shared their information as above.

Additionally, my movements are already monitored, by my mobile phone, by surveillance cameras and, in the case of my car, onboard software.

So why should I be unduly concerned about using a Government-recommended app to help combat the coronavirus pandemic?

All of these are covered by GDPR , which protects an individual in respect of who has access to one's data and how it may be used. The track and trace app, among any of its limitations, is not GDPR compliant. If you are comfortable with that, and lack the knowledge or interest to see how such data can be abused, then that is entirely your decision. Personally, I will follow Rosemary's example and manage my own risk factors.

 

[mikebeaches]

All of these are covered by GDPR , which protects an individual in respect of who has access to one's data and how it may be used. The track and trace app, among any of its limitations, is not GDPR compliant. If you are comfortable with that, and lack the knowledge or interest to see how such data can be abused, then that is entirely your decision. Personally, I will follow Rosemary's example and manage my own risk factors.

Molly A you still seem reluctant to succinctly explain exactly how your concern about 'abuse of data' on this app is going to harm me?

 

[gus-lopez]

Sadly, as I replied to him, he didn't clarify why I should be so worried?

abuse of information,info sold on. info used as if the person, alll sorts of other scams,etc, etc; etc;

My middle bro -in-law had the best idea. He used to change his name legally every now & then. one time here about 15 years ago I took him to hire a car. Passport in one name ,driving licence in another ,credit cards in all 3. i thought he'd be thrown out on the spot or arrested ,nothing, accepted all paid & he left with a car. when I suggested he sorted it out he promised he would.
When he unexpectedly died in 2014 it took until last year to sort out his property & assets he owned in Hungary. Uk was easy.

 

[Catchic]

I feel the test and trace system is fraught with flaws and potential inconsistencies, open to malicious abuse and technically unenforceable

it also lacks scrutiny and I doubt would confirm with GDPR or any robust examination.
It relies on goodwill from all sides and honesty.
it is as safe as the NHS is since last weeks vote.
For those reasons alone I resist it.
If government genuinely wanted a test and trace system we would all buy into and support they should've sacked Cummings for travelling during "lockdown"
As it is it smacks of one rule for them and another for the plebs.

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[mikebeaches]

I feel the test and trace system is fraught with flaws and potential inconsistencies, open to malicious abuse and technically unenforceable

it also lacks scrutiny and I doubt would confirm with GDPR or any robust examination.
It relies on goodwill from all sides and honesty.
it is as safe as the NHS is since last weeks vote.
For those reasons alone I resist it.
If government genuinely wanted a test and trace system we would all buy into and support they should've sacked Cummings for travelling during "lockdown"
As it is it smacks of one rule for them and another for the plebs.

To summarise, you think any Government app will be dangerous because Cummings wasn't sacked...

 

[Clipgate]

How is it to be used, the French system works is not stored merely activated by Bluetooth. No record kept just to informed.
Cambridge Anylitca used personal information to target vaunerability in the target audience, our PM s chief advisor will no doubt fill in the gaps.
Information is power always has been always will be, can be used for good or ill. I have the choice and have made it.

 

[andyman]

Good job some members of MHF didn’t live in East Germany during the Cold War.
Talk about paranoia, I’m off to check the light bulbs for listening devices, disable the satnav in the car and order a disguise for when I go out.
Anyone know where i can get some fake IDs

 

[Catchic]

To summarise, you think any Government app will be dangerous because Cummings wasn't sacked...

I suppose if you put it like that...
It's hard to trust if the source isn't trust worthy.
I'm more concerned that they voted down protecting the NHS and whilst I do see that there may have been elements of the amendment I'm ignorant of which would have been problematic in ways I'm ignorant of the fact is they voted down protecting the NHS....