Tow cars, fitting, best type, countries and law surrounding the A-FRAME

[Realist]

Well give the Frame Police something to talk about they got nothing else to do Lol.

 

[gus-lopez]

The officer looked at the toad, and said I see you cannot reverse with little car on back do you want any help to take off so you can turn around...... couldn’t help but smile

It is infurating when you have half-wits being paid good money out of our taxes who don't even understand there own laws.

Nice read in the latest MMM.

View attachment 429293

It will never happen for the simple european reason that you cannot legally modify a vehicles front chassis rail without testing & a new CoC . Doing so ,even in the UK, nullifies the existing CoC making the vehicle illegal . It also breaches the EU anti-tuning directive on modifying vehicles.

Well give the Frame Police something to talk about they got nothing else to do Lol.

Apart from strip out a mercedes gearbox, rectify fault, refit ,reassemble, make new linkage bushes , & test all ok. Buy fittings, Repair broken irrigation water Tee piece & now english lesson for lad next door. He learns it is a pity many with A frames can't comprehend better.

 

[Realist]

I think members got your message Inspector Gadget Sir now go back to your car and complain to that because you would be surprised how many members here are not as thick you make them out to be.

It is infurating when you have half-wits being paid good money out of our taxes who don't even understand there own laws.
It will never happen for the simple european reason that you cannot legally modify a vehicles front chassis rail without testing & a new CoC . Doing so ,even in the UK, nullifies the existing CoC making the vehicle illegal . It also breaches the EU anti-tuning directive on modifying vehicles.


Apart from strip out a mercedes gearbox, rectify fault, refit ,reassemble, make new linkage bushes , & test all ok. Buy fittings, Repair broken irrigation water Tee piece & now english lesson for lad next door. He learns it is a pity many with A frames can't comprehend better.

 

[TonyEmm]

Yes but as a visitor to Europe from the uk the loophole allows me to use the legal uk system, guess I will only be convinced when someone with lnb system gets fined for using their a frame in Europe, is that yourself?

No it doesn’t. Both France and Spain have it written into their laws that towing a self propelled vehicle with another is illegal, end of.... There are documented cases on this forum of folk in Spain being stopped and fined. It’s happened in Germany too. You’ll probably get away with it in France. It seems the authorities there have passed the buck onto the insurance companies who won’t insure a vehicle modified with an A-frame.... though of course, that only affects local drivers. The make of the A-frame is irrelevant, none are legal in the countries mentioned.

 

[joe and sue]

Many tag axle motorhomes have next to no towing capacity. Check the weight plate as the second axle increases the gvw but the train weight remains the same so towing weight reduced.

2000 Autotrail Chieftain, 3350 ULW, 4500 kg MGW, 5500 GTW,
No problems

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[TonyEmm]

2000 Autotrail Chieftain, 3350 ULW, 4500 kg MGW, 5500 GTW,
No problems

That’s a 1 tonne limit.... you’d need to be careful!

 

[joe and sue]

That’s a 1 tonne limit.... you’d need to be careful!

Only ever run at 4000kg fully loaded and classic mini on ali trailer maxes at 910kg, all ok, for us

 

[TonyEmm]

Can we please have confirmation that A frames are ok in the uk but not abroad

Even the DfT haven’t convinced themselves on that! They say they’ll be accepted, provided they meet all the regulations for trailers but none do.
They also say A-frames aren’t subject to type approval because it’s neither a vehicle or a trailer, neither is a towbar but that has to be tested and type approved!
Reg 13 of the UNECE (who control the movement of vehicles in all member states) bans inertia couplings on all but single and centre axle trailers yet the uk’s DfT completely ignore it, allowing it on over 90% of A-Frames in the U.K.... even though the brakes are incompatible....

A-frames

www.gov.uk

 

[olley]

Still flogging that same dead horse Tony?

 

[Geo]

Im still trying to work out if your batting for trailers or a towing ban

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[TonyEmm]

Im still trying to work out if your batting for trailers or a towing ban

Trailers are good, a legal TOAD would suit some more!

 

[fat haggis]

What’s the classification in the USA for toads lots of them about friends have one.

 

[Geo]

Trailers are good, a legal TOAD would suit some more!

Do you use an A frame?

 

[TonyEmm]

Still flogging that same dead horse Tony?

It may be being reincarnated!

 

[TonyEmm]

Do you use an A frame?

When I can’t find a legal one? I’ll give you one guess....

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[denisejoe]

Not any more as we are not an eu country so the original argument doesn’t apply

 

[TonyEmm]

Do you use an A frame?

My point is, that both Australia and New Zealand manage to have legal A-frames that meet specific criteria and are regulated. That’s got to be better and inspire confidence for the end user.
the U.K. is like the Wild West regarding TOADS... absolutely no controls. Anyone can make and fit one, even if you know nothing about welding, fabrication, crumple zones, airbag deployment, canbus systems.... The DfT are responsible for this. It’s them that say A-Frames don’t need to be tested, inspected or type approved.
they should be held to account!

 

[TonyEmm]

Not any more as we are not an eu country so the original argument doesn’t apply

Movement of vehicles in Europe isn’t controlled by the EU but by the United Nations.
In or out makes no difference.
That said, the DfT stick 2 fingers up to UNECE, even though we’ve been a member since 1963. The EU only signed up in 1998!

 

[Steve and Denise]

Thank you all, will look for a trailer for the car as planning to go abroad,

I think a tag axle van has a gross train weight of 6,000 kgs so if your van is 5,000kgs it leaves you a total towing capacity of 1,000kgs including trailer and car so you would be classed as over weight which may be worse ?

 

[olley]

My point is, that both Australia and New Zealand manage to have legal A-frames that meet specific criteria and are regulated. That’s got to be better and inspire confidence for the end user.
the U.K. is like the Wild West regarding TOADS... absolutely no controls. Anyone can make and fit one, even if you know nothing about welding, fabrication, crumple zones, airbag deployment, canbus systems.... The DfT are responsible for this. It’s them that say A-Frames don’t need to be tested, inspected or type approved.
they should be held to account!

They understand how skilled A framer makers are, and that they will have taken all those points into account.
Well maynot crumple zones and airbags but canbus, well maybe but a lighting board sorts that anyway. Welding, just blob it on and some will stick, then a quick touch with a grinder and a coat of paint you'll look like the welder you ain't.

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[sweetie]

I think a tag axle van has a gross train weight of 6,000 kgs so if your van is 5,000kgs it leaves you a total towing capacity of 1,000kgs including trailer and car so you would be classed as over weight which may be worse ?

Mine is train 5500kg van 4500kg toad about 850kg don’t think there is a trailer at 150kg but the electronic braking is great and can reverse it. And remove towing eyes from toad which insurance was ok with as long as nothing was left protruding at front

 

[TonyEmm]

They understand how skilled A framer makers are, and that they will have taken all those points into account.
Well maynot crumple zones and airbags but canbus, well maybe but a lighting board sorts that anyway. Welding, just blob it on and some will stick, then a quick touch with a grinder and a coat of paint you'll look like the welder you ain't.

Bit tongue in cheek but I think you’ve got my point!

 

[Steve and Denise]

Mine is train 5500kg van 4500kg toad about 850kg don’t think there is a trailer at 150kg but the electronic braking is great and can reverse it. And remove towing eyes from toad which insurance was ok with as long as nothing was left protruding at front

I have used a frames for 10 years with various vans but never successfully reversed any of them with any accuracy and have not seen anyone else do so as the steering geometry is totally wrong to work in such a way.
Plenty have told me they do but as to yet no one has shown me other than a couple of mtrs straight.

 

[TonyEmm]

I have used a frames for 10 years with various vans but never successfully reversed any of them with any accuracy and have not seen anyone else do so as the steering geometry is totally wrong to work in such a way.
Plenty have told me they do but as to yet no one has shown me other than a couple of mtrs straight.

Here’s a perfect example of how a ‘professional’ does it.... We mere mortals have no chance!

 

[Steve and Denise]

Here’s a perfect example of how a ‘professional’ does it.... We mere mortals have no chance!

Exactly it can not be done with any control it mimics a Tesco shopping trolly, but great going in a forward direction

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[Kannon Fodda]

 

[Geo]

My point is, that both Australia and New Zealand manage to have legal A-frames that meet specific criteria and are regulated. That’s got to be better and inspire confidence for the end user.
the U.K. is like the Wild West regarding TOADS... absolutely no controls. Anyone can make and fit one, even if you know nothing about welding, fabrication, crumple zones, airbag deployment, canbus systems.... The DfT are responsible for this. It’s them that say A-Frames don’t need to be tested, inspected or type approved.
they should be held to account!

And i agree with the DFT they dont, and you have continually failed to provide evidence of any sort to the contrary, other than you opinion and others who more than likely have never used one.
I can post many more reversing cock up and full on accidents vidios with trailers and caravans.
There are no points for style. If you cant reverse you shouldnt be towing.
Do you have any other songs in your repatar
And for the record When and if the DFT say ther'e illegal ill stop.
I for one will stop trying to work out your concerns, and put it down to an obsession.
As has been said the horse is long dead, your whip should be confiscated.

 

[TonyEmm]

And i agree with the DFT they dont

As a ‘professional’ I assume you can explain the logic of this?

 

[Manic]

Here’s a perfect example of how a ‘professional’ does it.... We mere mortals have no chance!

so if that’s a ‘professional’ , I think not, any body can push a car backwards, scrubbing the front tyres. I don’t think it would be that easy with a heavier car.

 

[joe and sue]

As a ‘professional’ I assume you can explain the logic of this?View attachment 462970

Trailers are not subject to any safety checks or type approval either

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