Tow cars, fitting, best type, countries and law surrounding the A-FRAME

Geo said:
You see Gaza read the first post
strange as you confirmed it in post two

Can we please have confirmation that A frames are ok in the uk but not abroad
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Despite claims to the contrary by the manufacturers/suppliers, ‘A’ frames are not legal in the U.K. The reasoning for that is simply that in the uk, it is accepted that a car on an ‘A’ frame is a trailer. HOWEVER, following the introduction of EC legislation in 2012, ALL trailers first used after October 2012 must be ‘type approved’. No car/‘A’ frame combination is.... end of argument!

Interestingly, the debate about the legality of ‘A’ frame usage doesn’t only rage in the uk! I’ve found a French Forum where the argument extends to 34 pages over a number of years... Some of the comments get a bit personal but it was fun to read! The final comment from the FFACCC (Fédération Française des Associations et Clubs de Camping-cars) was rather telling though. ... Translated, it says: ... “” from the FFACCC
Posted on 02-16-2010
Towing an automobile behind a motorhome; is this legal?
Many camper vans have been tempted to have a device installed on their vehicles allowing them to tow an automobile (on its wheels) behind their camper vans.
The principle is attractive, but the equipment still has to be approved in France.
Importers of these devices claim that it is legal in France. We have tried many times to obtain the corresponding homologation certificate from them, but without success.
Each time we have been consulted, we have expressed the greatest reservations about the use of these devices in our country.
Given the large number of questions on this subject, and in the absence of a response from the sellers and installers of these materials, we interviewed one of our correspondents at the State Secretariat for Transport. The informal response we just received only rekindles our fears.
Pending an official response from the French authorities, we can only advise you not to give in to temptation.
Posted on 02-17-2010
Towing an automobile behind your motorhome, continued ...
In order to clarify the subject, we again contacted the State services on the subject; you will find below the response we have just received:
“Behind a motor vehicle, the towed vehicle is a real trailer, with conformity to this type of vehicle and a trailer registration certificate.
A trailer is made up of various approved safety elements and the whole constitutes a trailer vehicle which is itself tested and approved. The approved elements are effectively the coupling head, braking, compatibility between the 2, trailer tires, trailer lighting and signaling devices, etc.
It is this assembly which constitutes a vehicle called a "trailer". Jattel (or other) can use a coupling head, an entity approved according to the provisions of directive 94/20 / CE. But for all of the other elements constituting the vehicle, nothing conforms to a trailer and the rules for installing the approved "coupling head" entity are not respected. The whole "coupling head approved 94/20 / CE" "car", the 2 coupled in a curious way, does not make a trailer within the meaning of the highway code (with certificate of registration "trailer").
In the current state of French regulations, towing an automobile behind a motorhome (or another self-propelled vehicle) is therefore illegal. “”
 
Id say that was confirmed in a round about long winded typical French way:giggle:
the EU as suspected appear not support our Dept for transport suggestion that it is a trailer
But I knew all that already my question was a poor attempt at sarcasm directed at a certain individual :rolleyes:
 
Realist said:
A frames over seas is a no go needs to be on a trailer.
A frames here in the U.K. is a salty subject for some and I wait for the replies but to start I would first look at what car you want to pull and go from their.

Then look at weights then look for the frame.
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Decide what car you want to pull by all means but then, WRITE to the manufacturers and ask their view on the subject. I’ve written to 15 and had 6 replies so far. Not one has said they would approve of ‘A’ frame being fitted to their vehicles, the inference in most cases is that if you have any ‘A’ frame related issues with steering,suspension,electrics etc, your warranty may well be affected.

I’m happy to post a summary of the replies when I get them all....👍

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Charlie9038 said:
Hi Gaza, I just had lnb towbars @ Bristol convert my Abarth, they did an excellent job and am very happy with it, the other company I looked at were towbars2towcars in Grimsby both use electronic braking which both companies claim is legal in Europe but there is a whole debate on this.

if any funsters have been fined using lnb or tb2tc a frame systems abroad I would like to know.

I did look at trailer options but as there is no more room on my drive and sites decided on the a frame route.

I expect the a frame haters will challenge this but I am really happy with what we have and will probably not use it abroad anyway as prefer the ok at the moment 😎
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Did exactly the same as you 3 years ago...... yes I do use it aboard, and will face the consequences if and when..
Interestingly just returned from 4 weeks in France, while we were travelling we were stopped by the police as the road ahead was closed.
The officer looked at the toad, and said I see you cannot reverse with little car on back do you want any help to take off so you can turn around...... couldn’t help but smile 😎
 
TonyEmm said:
Decide what car you want to pull by all means but then, WRITE to the manufacturers and ask their view on the subject. I’ve written to 15 and had 6 replies so far. Not one has said they would approve of ‘A’ frame being fitted to their vehicles, the inference in most cases is that if you have any ‘A’ frame related issues with steering,suspension,electrics etc, your warranty may well be affected.

I’m happy to post a summary of the replies when I get them all....👍
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Warranty,,I never buy a car new enough to have any warranty,,,10 years old is nearly new to me..BUSBY😁😁
 
TCG said:
Did exactly the same as you 3 years ago...... yes I do use it aboard, and will face the consequences if and when..
Interestingly just returned from 4 weeks in France, while we were travelling we were stopped by the police as the road ahead was closed.
The officer looked at the toad, and said I see you cannot reverse with little car on back do you want any help to take off so you can turn around...... couldn’t help but smile 😎
Click to expand...
Don't think you would get that response from The Guardia in Spain😁 BUSBY.
 
TonyEmm said:
Despite claims to the contrary by the manufacturers/suppliers, ‘A’ frames are not legal in the U.K. The reasoning for that is simply that in the uk, it is accepted that a car on an ‘A’ frame is a trailer. HOWEVER, following the introduction of EC legislation in 2012, ALL trailers first used after October 2012 must be ‘type approved’. No car/‘A’ frame combination is.... end of argument!

Interestingly, the debate about the legality of ‘A’ frame usage doesn’t only rage in the uk! I’ve found a French Forum where the argument extends to 34 pages over a number of years... Some of the comments get a bit personal but it was fun to read! The final comment from the FFACCC (Fédération Française des Associations et Clubs de Camping-cars) was rather telling though. ... Translated, it says: ... “” from the FFACCC
Posted on 02-16-2010
Towing an automobile behind a motorhome; is this legal?
Many camper vans have been tempted to have a device installed on their vehicles allowing them to tow an automobile (on its wheels) behind their camper vans.
The principle is attractive, but the equipment still has to be approved in France.
Importers of these devices claim that it is legal in France. We have tried many times to obtain the corresponding homologation certificate from them, but without success.
Each time we have been consulted, we have expressed the greatest reservations about the use of these devices in our country.
Given the large number of questions on this subject, and in the absence of a response from the sellers and installers of these materials, we interviewed one of our correspondents at the State Secretariat for Transport. The informal response we just received only rekindles our fears.
Pending an official response from the French authorities, we can only advise you not to give in to temptation.
Posted on 02-17-2010
Towing an automobile behind your motorhome, continued ...
In order to clarify the subject, we again contacted the State services on the subject; you will find below the response we have just received:
“Behind a motor vehicle, the towed vehicle is a real trailer, with conformity to this type of vehicle and a trailer registration certificate.
A trailer is made up of various approved safety elements and the whole constitutes a trailer vehicle which is itself tested and approved. The approved elements are effectively the coupling head, braking, compatibility between the 2, trailer tires, trailer lighting and signaling devices, etc.
It is this assembly which constitutes a vehicle called a "trailer". Jattel (or other) can use a coupling head, an entity approved according to the provisions of directive 94/20 / CE. But for all of the other elements constituting the vehicle, nothing conforms to a trailer and the rules for installing the approved "coupling head" entity are not respected. The whole "coupling head approved 94/20 / CE" "car", the 2 coupled in a curious way, does not make a trailer within the meaning of the highway code (with certificate of registration "trailer").
In the current state of French regulations, towing an automobile behind a motorhome (or another self-propelled vehicle) is therefore illegal. “”
Click to expand...

Calm down tony some of us accept its illegal but while the powers that be ignore us we will keep A framing, others are convinced its legal and nothing you say will change that, so get of your high horse and calm down.
You can post as many documents as you like, quote trailer regs till your blue in the face and it still won't make a damn bit of difference.
 
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olley said:
Calm down tony some of us accept its illegal but while the powers that be ignore us we will keep A framing, others are convinced its legal and nothing you say will change that, so get of your high horse and calm down.
You can post as many documents as you like, quote trailer regs till your blue in the face and it still won't make a damn bit of difference.
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👍. I’m not wound up! I’d have had a heart attack by now if I were.... I’ve been challenging this for over 20 years! 😁😜🙄. All I was pointing out here is that the same argument is raging in France and elsewhere.... What I just don’t understand is why the powers that be choose to ignore a complete sector of the towing industry.... There must be other anomalies out there too but this happens to be one I know a bit about.... 😊
 
TonyEmm said:
👍. I’m not wound up! I’d have had a heart attack by now if I were.... I’ve been challenging this for over 20 years! 😁😜🙄. All I was pointing out here is that the same argument is raging in France and elsewhere.... What I just don’t understand is why the powers that be choose to ignore a complete sector of the towing industry.... There must be other anomalies out there too but this happens to be one I know a bit about.... 😊
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I think you will find. that at the bottom of this is a European obsession with controlling the masses. Most European countries legal systems start from the premise "nothing is allowed unless previously sanctioned by the state". We on the other hand, work from the position that "most things are not illegal unless tested and found so, by the Courts or Parliament".

The Americans, have a small "industry" which caters to those who wish to tow in this manner. And even the Dolly, which here IS only legal for genuine recovery is not only accepted, but you can rent them, from "U" Haul".
 
There’s no doubt that the Americans lead the way in towing related issues. I remember they had proportional electric trailer brakes at least 30 years ago.... In the U.K. and Europe, innovation does seem to be driven by a reaction to legislation! I joined the industry in 1973 and the only major changes I can think of in that time (off the top of my head) were the change from 2” towballs to 50mm, the banning of spring damped couplings in favour of gas strut damped, then the introduction of auto-reverse braking systems becoming compulsory. It was the latter that causes a lot of issues with ‘Toads’.
All trailer brakes are now auto-reverse and they do it by using a sprung loaded trailing brake shoe mounted on a roller cam. This disengages the mechanism when it is pushed backwards. That, of course, caused a problem when parking. The trailer could roll away backwards.... to overcome that, energy stores were introduced which pushed the handbrake further on to take up the slack. No car brakes have an auto reverse mechanism in the drums or on the discs which makes an inertia damped coupling totally inappropriate when it comes to reversing. The car brakes will just lock up, given a good shove!
Oh, there was another too.... the banning of asbestos in brake linings. Instead, metal filings were introduced into the lining compound. This then causes brake shoes to rust on to the drum if the handbrake is left on indefinitely! That got me quite a bit of business, being called out to free them off!! 😁

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Do trailer brakes really need an auto reverse? in the early 80's I built a trailer using a Landrover back axle, a brake master cylinder behind the overun coupling operated the hydraulic brakes. I was building a house at Wickham Market and over the 3 years it took to build it was regularly loaded with a ton or so of sand and bricks, reversing it on to my plot of land was was never a problem.
 
PeteH said:
This "discussion" will run and run, but unfortunately "A" frame use on the European mainland will eventually die completely. And that saddens me, another bit of freedom gone, whittled away by overzealous bureaucrats.

AND:-
Someone makes (made) a trailer with a folding Draw bar, and that would take up the least space on site. ( one guy I know, put plywood base on the trailer and used it for a Gazebo, to Barbecue in / on!).
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it seems to me that ‘A’ frame usage will die a natural death anyway with the introduction of all electric vehicles... AFAIK, none can be flat towed.

Brian James Trailers made a dedicated Smart Car trailer with a folding drawbar. As an alternative though, have a look at the lightweight range from Woodford trailers. http://www.woodfordtrailers.com/lightweight. Cheaper than a good quality ‘A’ frame too! 👍
 
olley said:
Do trailer brakes really need an auto reverse? in the early 80's I built a trailer using a Landrover back axle, a brake master cylinder behind the overun coupling operated the hydraulic brakes. I was building a house at Wickham Market and over the 3 years it took to build it was regularly loaded with a ton or so of sand and bricks, reversing it on to my plot of land was was never a problem.
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I never did a lot with hydraulic brakes on trailers, mainly because they are incompatible with an over-run coupling.... The few I did do though, unless you had a manual revising catch on the coupling, would lock up immediately in reverse when set up properly....
I guess you had a reversing catch or your brakes just weren’t working! 😂🤣
 
TonyEmm said:
it seems to me that ‘A’ frame usage will die a natural death anyway with the introduction of all electric vehicles... AFAIK, none can be flat towed.

Brian James Trailers made a dedicated Smart Car trailer with a folding drawbar. As an alternative though, have a look at the lightweight range from Woodford trailers. http://www.woodfordtrailers.com/lightweight. Cheaper than a good quality ‘A’ frame too! 👍
Click to expand...
Interesting thought there. If you towed one. would it be charging the Batteries?.

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TonyEmm said:
it seems to me that ‘A’ frame usage will die a natural death anyway with the introduction of all electric vehicles... AFAIK, none can be flat towed.
Click to expand...

You are correct. Unless the manufacturer includes a freewheel device to disconnect the transmission, EVs probably can't be A-framed. Our car is a hybrid EV so I thought I had better read the handbook in case of a breakdown. Recovery is advised only by flat bed truck or some means of lifting the front tyres off the ground. (my paraphrasing).

It specifically says:

Improper towing such as towing behind a motorhome or other motor vehicle can damage the transmission.
 
TonyEmm said:
Brian James Trailers made a dedicated Smart Car trailer with a folding drawbar. As an alternative though, have a look at the lightweight range from Woodford trailers. http://www.woodfordtrailers.com/lightweight. Cheaper than a good quality ‘A’ frame too! 👍
Click to expand...

I had one, it broke! It was about 5-6 years old at the time, BJ sent me a new modified drawbar foc so a known fault I guess.

DSCN5575.jpg
DSCN5571.jpg
 
TonyEmm said:
Oh, there was another too.... the banning of asbestos in brake linings. Instead, metal filings were introduced into the lining compound. This then causes brake shoes to rust on to the drum if the handbrake is left on indefinitely! That got me quite a bit of business, being called out to free them off!!
Click to expand...
Actually older lining materials were even worse for rusting to the drum (or flywheel) because they held moisture more efficiently. At least modern materials aren't particularly porous. I can remember freeing drum brakes only to find a layer of lining still stuck to the drum.
 
PeteH said:
Interesting thought there. If you towed one. would it be charging the Batteries?.
Click to expand...
That, I can’t tell you.... Googling Tesla’s though, it seems there might be some issue with the motors overheating... One poster suggested that even in neutral, the motors still spin, at an estimated 6,300rpm at 55mph!
Don’t quote me, I’m no expert on electric cars and certainly not in the Tesla league! 😜🤪
 
tonyidle said:
Actually older lining materials were even worse for rusting to the drum (or flywheel) because they held moisture more efficiently. At least modern materials aren't particularly porous. I can remember freeing drum brakes only to find a layer of lining still stuck to the drum.
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Yup, had that! 👍
 
olley said:
I had one, it broke! It was about 5-6 years old at the time, BJ sent me a new modified drawbar foc so a known fault I guess.

View attachment 428819View attachment 428820
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Looks on the face of it, that the Bolt hole created a "Notch" allowing the fracture to propagate. Best practice would suggest that a high stress area such as that should have had a compensating ring or plate, The nature of the fracture suggests that the greater mass was to the rear of the Trailer wheel.? Was it new to you or second hand?. I say that, because some guys who I used to Rally with, always put the car on the trailer Rear first, with the result that the engine/gearbox mass was to the rear of the wheels.
 
Bought it new in 05 or 6, it's not a Smart trailer, just a 1 ton single axle, the rear legs used slide as you loaded/unloaded so putting a load in the reverse to what the hinge was designed for, the upgrade had a plate welded on top of the channel, unfortunately that meant you couldn't secure the drawbar in the upright position anymore.
The wife's car at the time was an auto Nissan Micra.
 

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