Tow A Frame systems

[Mygale7358]

Hi new to motorhomes with a Swift escape 674 after caravans for many years. looking for advice on getting a tow bar and A frame tow system to tow a Toyota Aygo. We are based in Scotland and don't see any Scottish companies and reading various companies blurb they all claim to be the best, so some practical experience would be appreciated from members. Many thanks

 

[David and Sally]

TAF at Chesterfield are excellent.

 

[jdk62]

The Towmaster 2 system from LNB at Bristol - good, but a long way from Scotland….

 

[Verteuil Man]

We got ours from LNB Towbars at Bristol. A very well engineered product.

 

[TinaLes]

Welcome to Fun.
If you want to tour Europe then A frames are not legal, you will need to put the car on a trailer. If you have space at home a trailer is much easier as there will be less wear & tear on the car also.
Its reversing when needed thats the big problem with A Frames & Trailers, especially on single track roads, when a few vehicles come the other way, they will expect you to reverse and give them right of way, its not the easiest position to Swiftly Escape from.
I find that an E Bike a much easier solution, as I don't use camp sites, and wild camping would be much harder with a car on the back, however each to their own, yes we did miss the car after the caravan, so I see where you are coming from, but its surprising how one adapts.
LES

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[Spriddler]

Welcome.
Several similar threads on here. As a free member you don't have access to the 'Search' facility but here's one of them....

Which A-Frame?

I am relatively new to motor-homing and want to tow a Kia Picanto behind my vehicle to enable me to do all the sightseeing etc that I want to do. I am looking into a-frames and have discovered there are 2 main types of frame - those that have elecrtonic braking and those with inertia braking...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[Brakes508]

If we were starting from scratch I would go trailer over A frame. Our Smart fortwo came with an A frame set up already hence why we ran with it. The real pain is reversing as you can't do that with an A frame the same as a trailer, I've had to unhitch and move separately a few times due to restrictions which I wouldn't have needed to do with a trailer but also depends if space is a premium for you. I comment the same as a previous member that you will run into "challenges" in Europe. France can me a little "flexible" but just depends where you are going and who stops you, certainly you'll encounter issues in Spain with an A frame.

 

[DDJC]

Welcome to Fun. And congrats on picking one of the half a dozen most contentious subjects to ask a question on .

The facts:

1. Many A Frame fitters will tell you that they are completely legal. Not true. Remember they are there to sell you an A Frame. They won't be there as you try to explain to the Policia that the dealer said it was legal.
2. You can use A Frames on the road in UK, but there are rules about braking mechanisms. This is the relevant UK guidance
3. It is a technicality, but basically, A Frames are not legal in UK. They are, however, not illegal. This is a fine point because the Driver & Vehicle Standards Agency won't make a formal decision on whether they should be legal or not.
4. Because they are not actually designated as 'legal' in Britain, the Vienna convention does not apply. Therefore individual nation's national laws apply.
5. Most EU nations will not allow them and may order you to uncouple, and even fine you.
6. Ireland doesn't seem to care either.

Our opinion:

1. We have tried trailers and A Frame. Pros and cons for both.
2. Not every small car is suitable for A Frame towing. Usually the gearbox determines. Manual yes. Auto, probably not, but yes. Robotiscised, and electric, don't risk it. Having blown a hole in a Suzuki Ignis engine block, we know this to be true.
3. We do more touring over the water, so for us it's a no brainer. Trailer every time.

 

[Abacist]

You can either go with a fully electronic system with the car brakes applied by the A frame system or a more simple cheaper A frame system with an overrun brake system like you will be used to. Ballpark the more sophisticated is probably 3 times the price of the more basic.

I bought a second hand basic A frame for my Citroen C1 and did all the work myself. I have an Armitage A frame.

If you don’t yet have a car there are firms that sell them all converted for the electronic version either new or secondhand.

On mine you unclip the plastic front end and replace the crossmember with the stronger one supplied which carries the connection for the A frame.

Electrics are pretty straightforward like a caravan.

Obviously you need a tow bar on your van and towing electrics. You need to ensure your gross train weight and towing weight limit is sufficient to cover the weight of the car and A frame.

 

[Abacist]

I should add that we only A frame a car in the UK as the EU are anti as said above but we use our electric cycles abroad.

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[Verteuil Man]

Welcome to Fun. And congrats on picking one of the half a dozen most contentious subjects to ask a question on .

The facts:

1. Many A Frame fitters will tell you that they are completely legal. Not true. Remember they are there to sell you an A Frame. They won't be there as you try to explain to the Policia that the dealer said it was legal.
2. You can use A Frames on the road in UK, but there are rules about braking mechanisms. This is the relevant UK guidance
3. It is a technicality, but basically, A Frames are not legal in UK. They are, however, not illegal. This is a fine point because the Driver & Vehicle Standards Agency won't make a formal decision on whether they should be legal or not.
4. Because they are not actually designated as 'legal' in Britain, the Vienna convention does not apply. Therefore individual nation's national laws apply.
5. Most EU nations will not allow them and may order you to uncouple, and even fine you.
6. Ireland doesn't seem to care either.

Our opinion:

1. We have tried trailers and A Frame. Pros and cons for both.
2. Not every small car is suitable for A Frame towing. Usually the gearbox determines. Manual yes. Auto, probably not, but yes. Robotiscised, and electric, don't risk it. Having blown a hole in a Suzuki Ignis engine block, we know this to be true.
3. We do more touring over the water, so for us it's a no brainer. Trailer every time.

I onow para 3 and 4 say its a technically, but it presumes that because there is no legislation to say A-frames are illegal, they are not necessarily legal. I would have thought that there are numerous things used on the roads amongst many other places that do not have a specific piece of paper or legislation to say that they are legal. I suspect a bycicle would be one.

 

[DDJC]

I onow para 3 and 4 say its a technically, but it presumes that because there is no legislation to say A-frames are illegal, they are not necessarily legal. I would have thought that there are numerous things used on the roads amongst many other places that do not have a specific piece of paper or legislation to say that they are legal. I suspect a bycicle would be one.

No idea. I only studied A Frames.

I defer to Speedy and other lawyers on this, but my limited understanding says that:

• There are four states that describe this sort of thing. 'Legal', 'Illegal', 'Not Legal' and 'Not Illegal' and there are differences between them.
• A Frames are not illegal, but as they have not been formally made 'legal', the provisions in the Vienna convention (paras 3 & 5 of Article 3 & Article 39 of the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic 1968) do not apply.
• It would very interesting if the Govt ever did rule definitively that A Frames were legal, because then the Vienna Convention trumps national law for any signatory, and the UK A Frames would be deemed to be legal to use in the third country - even though other users, including nationals of the host country, would still be subject to intervention. Probably why the Govt has always ducked this one.
• However, it is moot for the countries that haven't fully signed the 1968 Vienna convention, which include: France, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta, or for those that have signed, but not ratified, such as Spain and the Vatican.

Basically, France, Spain, Cypus and Malta can tell Vienna to do one. Kind of a problem if you rock up with your A Frame, at Calais with an eagle-eyed Gendarme, who is a bit down on that month's quota of nicks.

 

[Brains]

No idea. I only studied A Frames.

I defer to Speedy and other lawyers on this, but my limited understanding says that:

• There are four states that describe this sort of thing. 'Legal', 'Illegal', 'Not Legal' and 'Not Illegal' and there are differences between them.
• A Frames are not illegal, but as they have not been formally made 'legal', the provisions in the Vienna convention (paras 3 & 5 of Article 3 & Article 39 of the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic 1968) do not apply.
• It would very interesting if the Govt ever did rule definitively that A Frames were legal, because then the Vienna Convention trumps national law for any signatory, and the UK A Frames would be deemed to be legal to use in the third country - even though other users, including nationals of the host country, would still be subject to intervention. Probably why the Govt has always ducked this one.
• However, it is moot for the countries that haven't fully signed the 1968 Vienna convention, which include: France, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta, or for those that have signed, but not ratified, such as Spain and the Vatican.

Basically, France, Spain, Cypus and Malta can tell Vienna to do one. Kind of a problem if you rock up with your A Frame, at Calais with an eagle-eyed Gendarme, who is a bit down on that month's quota of nicks.

In Summary:

English Common law is innocent until proven guilty.
Therefore unless something has had a law or a judgement passed to say it's illegal, it is therefore legal.
English law is the basis in Scotland, Wales, Ireland and most of the Commonwealth countries.

Roman Law is the reverse, guilty until proven innocent.
Therefore by default everything is illegal unless a law or judgement has been passed to say it's legal.
Roman Law is the basis in France, Spain, Italy and all their former colonies.

 

[Pausim]

In Summary:

English Common law is innocent until proven guilty.
Therefore unless something has had a law or a judgement passed to say it's illegal, it is therefore legal.
English law is the basis in Scotland, Wales, Ireland and most of the Commonwealth countries.

Roman Law is the reverse, guilty until proven innocent.
Therefore by default everything is illegal unless a law or judgement has been passed to say it's legal.
Roman Law is the basis in France, Spain, Italy and all their former colonies.

Scottish law has its roots in Roman law though it has become a bit hybridised with English common law. Not sure I agree with there being a presumption of guilt in it either. However what really matters is that the Department for Transport says that A frames are acceptable in the UK so no one here takes the issue to Court.

 

[RV-AL]

Welcome to Fun.
If you want to tour Europe then A frames are not legal, you will need to put the car on a trailer. If you have space at home a trailer is much easier as there will be less wear & tear on the car also.
Its reversing when needed thats the big problem with A Frames & Trailers, especially on single track roads, when a few vehicles come the other way, they will expect you to reverse and give them right of way, its not the easiest position to Swiftly Escape from.
I find that an E Bike a much easier solution, as I don't use camp sites, and wild camping would be much harder with a car on the back, however each to their own, yes we did miss the car after the caravan, so I see where you are coming from, but its surprising how one adapts.

Hi new to motorhomes with a Swift escape 674 after caravans for many years. looking for advice on getting a tow bar and A frame tow system to tow a Toyota Aygo. We are based in Scotland and don't see any Scottish companies and reading various companies blurb they all claim to be the best, so some practical experience would be appreciated from members. Many thanks

You will get lots of people on here tell you what is legal and what isn’t. If you ask the question, if anyone has been stopped using an A-frame in Europe, the only positive results you will get from people who have been stopped themselve, as opposed to know someone down the pub who was stopped, will be in Spain and even there, there are some who have been stopped to check weight and capacity and then waved on, as well as some who have been fined and made to disconnect the tow car. Legality for a UK vehicle towing an A-Frame in Europe is not black and white, despite what many will tell you.

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[DDJC]

Reply to RV-AL (not TinaLes, as for some reason, your formatting won't let you reply)

You will get lots of people on here tell you what is legal and what isn’t.

That's because this subject is well understood, having been kicked around to death and back

If you ask the question, if anyone has been stopped using an A-frame in Europe, the only positive results you will get from people who have been stopped themselve, as opposed to know someone down the pub who was stopped, will be in Spain

Yep. I make you right there. Never been pulled over, but then, I have never used my A Frame in continental Europe. Used it once in Ireland, and no one seemed to care. I have heard that they get very arsey when you try to use an A Frame to go through one of the Alpen tunnels. You would end up paying two tolls.

Legality for a UK vehicle towing an A-Frame in Europe is not black and white, despite what many will tell you.

Don't agree. The law is very black and very white. A Frames are subject to the national laws of the individual countries, AND EU regulations, end of. The EU has decided that when you tow a car, it is a 'towed car' and not a 'trailer' as it is so deemed in UK. Therefore, even allowing for local variations, you cannot legally use an A Frame in the EU (or Norway & Iceland)

Where there is a huge grey area is how the law is applied by the local Police forces, and there is considerable variation. Some cops fine you, some ask you to uncouple, some don't care enough to even pull you over. It is probably true that few people are stopped (except Spain), but why risk it? If you KNOW it is illegal, why flirt with the law?

HOWEVER! The good news is that it appears that you can use an A Frame in Switzerland! How you get to Switzerland, via France, Italy, Austria or Germany, well, that is is the question.

Incidentally, I have just this moment read the advertising blurb of one of the better known A Frame converters. They state that their A Frames are legal to use in the EU. This is BS, purely to sell you an A Frame. The bloke who sold me mine, said exactly the same thing even supplying a set of explanations in Fr, Ger, Ita and Dutch. It is NOT true and these people know it. Caveat emptor.

 

[eddie]

I have towed A Framed cars since 2007

I have taken a car to France, Italy and Spain

I have never been stopped or approached by the Police, despite towing it behind a large RV which garners a lot of looks from people.

I have recently had a Towbars 2 Towcars system installed on a Suzuki Ignis, as it seemed the lightest system, and with a electronic braking system including servo, seemed to be much better that the old fashioned, and much heavier “over run” system

I can put it on, or take it off in a matter of minutes

I can’t talk for, and neither should anyone else, other people and their experiences abroad, but I regularly see people with A Frames, and have never met anyone who has been prosecuted

I have met (unfortunately ) many people who need to tell me why I shouldn’t tow, and they’ve meet people who, knows someone, who’s Uncle got stopped in Benidorm (I suspect these people are Vegans!)

My camper is insured with Comfort, the Suzuki is also insured with Comfort as an A Framed car, towed behind the RV, we’re booked for France with Brittany Ferries RV and trailer, which they know is a car.

 

[Widge]

What do insurance companies say? People have said, in europe you might or might not get away with an a frame, but Surely if you are breaking the law in a country, insurance companies are within their right to say that you were driving an illegal configuration of vehicle, therefore you have broken the terms of insurance. It even looks like a grey area in the UK.

 

[PaulW2]

The one solution that is definitely legal is to put the car in front and tow your sleeping accommodation behind you.

Even then insurance controversy can arise. Big debate in the Netherlands maybe 20 years ago about towbars on company cars and how insurance would allocate responsibility in the event of an incident.

 

[rob1234]

hi i have had both system's over run and electronic (towaframe ) i could hardly lift the overrun frame it put me of taking the car ,,with the towaframe bar its so easy to install and store ,i would 100% recommend towaframe the guy is so helpful, a lot more expensive than overrun ,,but well worth the extra in my opinion ,,

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[Verteuil Man]

We have used our A-frame in both France and Spain. Never been stopped. We have been overtaken by Traffic Police in bothe Countries on numerous occasions. Been observed by motorcycle Police who where waiting by the barrier of the toll booth in France and a Police car in Spain. I have drive passed 4 Police officers, 2 on motorcycles and 2 in a car who were stood chewing the fat at a junction. I had to turn round and stopped by the side of them for about 30 seconds whilst a gap in traffic came. I waved at them when they said they admired our motorhome.
There is a French Company selling A-frames in France which they claim are approved.
Meanwhile, I while keep on using it.

 

[Northernraider]

I have met (unfortunately ) many people who need to tell me why I shouldn’t tow, and they’ve meet people who, knows someone, who’s Uncle got stopped in Benidorm (I suspect these people are Vegans!)

 

[Northernraider]

I've seen several French and German motorhomes with a framed vehicles the most impressive being a German registered 40ft American school bus that tows a land rover discovery in camel liverly that frequents Greece for many months of the year.

 

[DDJC]

I have recently had a Towbars 2 Towcars system installed on a Suzuki Ignis, as it seemed the lightest system, and with a electronic braking system including servo, seemed to be much better that the old fashioned, and much heavier “over run” system

We had an Ignis SZ5 with the robotiscised gearbox and electronic ignition. The A Frame company said was fine to use with an A Frame. It wasn't. To unlock the steering, you have to push the starter button once. Less than two miles down the road, we ground to a halt with smoke pouring out of the Ignis. A hole had blown through the engine block. Four grand and a new engine later, we bought a trailer.

The Ignis is a brilliant little car. Four adult sized seats in less than 900kg. We still have one as our trailer car. It is the smallest car that can have a towbar fitted. If you have the keyless ignition, then I hope you have one with a manual gearbox.

I have met (unfortunately ) many people who need to tell me why I shouldn’t tow, and they’ve meet people who, knows someone, who’s Uncle got stopped in Benidorm (I suspect these people are Vegans!)

It's none of my business if you use an A Frame on the continent! Knock yourself out. I also have seen them occasionally, including a French-owned Chausson pulling one. Similarly, I have never had first hand knowledge of anyone being caught and ordered to uncouple I just know that it is not legal in the EU, so I don't want to tempt fate. And I am not a bloody vegan

 

[Jimuck]

Hi new to motorhomes with a Swift escape 674 after caravans for many years. looking for advice on getting a tow bar and A frame tow system to tow a Toyota Aygo. We are based in Scotland and don't see any Scottish companies and reading various companies blurb they all claim to be the best, so some practical experience would be appreciated from members. Many thanks

Hi, I am from Scotland and about to do the same as you. After a lot of research and recommendations on here I will probably use towbars 2 towcars in Keelby near Grimsby to fit tow bar to my Mh and electronic a frame to my fiat 500.
There is a company in Bellshill called citytowbarsandelectrics who are agents for towaglide but when I got a quote from them they were about £700 more expensive. Think I can get to grimsby stay over night get job done and back for less than that. Although Bellshill is only an hour away for me so much more convenient.
Just my thoughts.

James

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[RustyRuss]

I speak from practical, real-life experience. We have a Toyota Aygo X 74plate now, used to have an Aygo19, then 21plate. Toad all of them at one time or another across France. Bezier in 2019 then 2022, the Loire valley in 2023 and Il de Re this year. Use the French motorway system all the time, passed LOTS of Gendarmes, both stationery and moving, in motorway service stations, at motorway peages, in big towns, small towns, villages, even seen a French rig with a French manufactured A Frame towing a little Renault on the motorway and the same rig in the town below the moulin bridge later in the day. Never been pulled, looked at, queried, flagged down, so I think the Gendarmerie’s attitude towards toads is just like their attitude towards carrying a “mandatory” breathalyser in your car. Namely they couldn’t give a toss, and the paperwork will be a PITA. I know that technically it’s illegal, but I think that you’re more likely to get a tug for not having a crit aire sticker than having a Toad.
I’ve booked again for Il de Re this year with DFDS for Newhaven - Dieppe, Toad booked as a “trailer” by the operative on the phone, (only way to book to ensure you get over 60’s discount). Wasn’t any problem.
So my advice is to do what you feel is right for you.

Cheers!

Russ

 

[Ridgeway]

HOWEVER! The good news is that it appears that you can use an A Frame in Switzerland! How you get to Switzerland, via France, Italy, Austria or Germany, well, that is is the question.

For vehicles registered in Switzerland I can confirm this is not correct. For visitors, like always as long as your vehicle is legal and road worthy according to country it’s registered in then I’m sure all is ok.

 

[Bill-H]

The Spanish police N332 seem quite sure of the regualtions regarding A-frame towing in Spain.

The Rules Regarding A – Frames | N332.es - Driving In Spain

If you have a motorhome and you want to carry your car to Spain, you have to be aware that A-Frames are forbidden in Spain, so you will need a trailer to carry your car. The law which legislates in this matter is the "Reglamento General de Circulación", and applies to all vehicles that are

n332.es

 

[Verteuil Man]

The Spanish police N332 seem quite sure of the regualtions regarding A-frame towing in Spain.

The Rules Regarding A – Frames | N332.es - Driving In Spain

If you have a motorhome and you want to carry your car to Spain, you have to be aware that A-Frames are forbidden in Spain, so you will need a trailer to carry your car. The law which legislates in this matter is the "Reglamento General de Circulación", and applies to all vehicles that are

n332.es

But, you are not towing a car. You are towing a trailer.

 

[Bill-H]

But, you are not towing a car. You are towing a trailer.

You should take your argument up with the Spanish police , not me, I only pointed out a link to their website.
The fact that you haven't been stopped and have been ignored so far doesn't alter their regualtion. You may never be stopped in fifty visits to Spain - but you could be, and that will be the time to advise them that it's not a car but a trailer.
My neighbour never puts a numberplate on his trailer when towing in the UK, he's never been pulled over but it doesn't make it legal just because he's been ignored so far and never been stopped.