Toad question.

[Geo]

As Stated Driver error, and I do not fear contradiction, feel free and prove me wrong
The worst drivers are those that think there perfect

 

[Pausim]

As Stated Driver error, and I do not fear contradiction, feel free and prove me wrong
The worst drivers are those that think there perfect

I do not consider myself to be a perfect driver. Neither do I have the facilities or desire to prove you wrong. I merely express my opinions and experience in the hope that it will be useful to others on this site.

In my experience people who think they know everything sometimes know less than they think they do. Even the most eminent of experts will express opinions rather than state absolutes.

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

As regards the Smart on a 2015 plate being able to tow it... look at the picture below. It is forsale on another site
As regards the bungee strap ...There are two on the Car a Tow and Towtal set ups. One from brake pedal to seat frame . Seat being pushed as far back as it will go
The other bungee strap wraps around the steering wheel and down to the seat frame to prevent the steering wheel go into full lock either way..left or right.
As to whether or not you should or should not do it..thats entirely up to the individual. Regardless of the companies actually insisting on them when in use.

On a personal note...I thought this site was to allow for everyone to put an opinion forward with out harrassment or verbal abuse of any sorts? Why the issue with some responses off various folk trying to either belittle others?
I use the site to learn from folk and hopefully to pass on my knowledge with anything that I can do.
It seems that just lately there are more folk who like to bring others down in the way so as to make them either feel small or wrong in their views or answers?

Shame that this is becoming more apparent on here.

Just my opinion.. I just wish folk would just get on rather than annoy each other.

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

Not all Smarts suffer it!
Yet all smarts are built the same?

Take it from someone who has towed smarts built and fitted a frames and has a little knowledge re steering systems
The Cause without any fear of contradiction is Driver Error
Take your bungees off and pull out from Junctions much slower
I have researched tested and proved a Smart with no previous tendency to wobble can be encouraged to do so with a sharper fast left or right turn/ pull away from stationary even just pulling out from a kerb to fast can bring it on
The wobble is simply the steering trying to sync with the Motorhomes direction, once started its like a tank slapper on a motor bike, only stopping and pulling off again will stop it

With Respect...

If the A frame was fitted by Car a tow or Towtal...they will insist on the bungee straps being fitted . They state that the steering mechanism on the smart car would not last if "wheel wobble" or 'Chattering' was to occur regulary.
That has nothing to do with Driver error or Driver use. It is as they state ...A phenomenom that occurs with the smart car because of it being designed the way it is and also because it has no power steering to restrict the movement whilst being towed.

Check out Smart evilution web site..it will explain the steering a lot better and hopefully answer the questions why it is needed.

Regards Kev.

 

[Geo]

I do not consider myself to be a perfect driver. Neither do I have the facilities or desire to prove you wrong. I merely express my opinions and experience in the hope that it will be useful to others on this site.

In my experience people who think they know everything sometimes know less than they think they do. Even the most eminent of experts will express opinions rather than state absolutes.

You said it

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[Carolyn and Kev]

Just a couple of other pictures regarding the 2015 Passion being towed.

 

[tonyidle]

Am I doing it wrong then my old smart has a bungee strap crimped at one end to the seat frame and the other hook end I put around the brake pedal to keep it up and as a return spring when towing. This is what I was told to do when I bought it , should the bungee go round the steering wheel then not the brake ?

It's possible that any friction in the brake cable would cause the brakes to stay lightly applied. The pedal spring isn't intended to return both pedal and cable so the bungee will help it.

 

[Geo]

With Respect...

If the A frame was fitted by Car a tow or Towtal...they will insist on the bungee straps being fitted . They state that the steering mechanism on the smart car would not last if "wheel wobble" or 'Chattering' was to occur regulary.
That has nothing to do with Driver error or Driver use. It is as they state ...A phenomenom that occurs with the smart car because of it being designed the way it is and also because it has no power steering to restrict the movement whilst being towed.

Check out Smart evilution web site..it will explain the steering a lot better and hopefully answer the questions why it is needed.

Regards Kev.

Please Kev Dont quote Car a Tow or Towtal as if they know what they are doing, they are winging it
I as a lowly Automotive engineer I would, having developed and charged upward of a £1000+ for a towing system that relies on a "Bungee Strap" hang up my spanners and my head in shame. They clearly dont have a clue what causes it or they would offer a professional fix
There is no mechanical fault ergo driver error is the only logical cause left, hitting pot holes, mounting humps, pulling out to sharp, all driver errors if you drive with the problem in mind it dont happen, ergo
Driver error Its a crying shame some folk cant take advise from others that do know better
Im never to old to learn, Oh and there are folk out there who still insist Smart Cars CAN'T be towed period

 

[bigtwin]

Am I doing it wrong then my old smart has a bungee strap crimped at one end to the seat frame and the other hook end I put around the brake pedal to keep it up and as a return spring when towing. This is what I was told to do when I bought it , should the bungee go round the steering wheel then not the brake ?

No, I do the same as you.

Ian

 

[GWAYGWAY]

Oh dear I seem to have started something here, punchups all over the place, All I wanted to know can it slip into gear with the key out.
However there are a few things:
You can tow a late model according to MB - USA, but they got it wrong in the actual manual procedure. There is a way that you can lodge it in the 'neutral' position and it is explained on Youtube, but I think it might actually be 6th gear so all the rotations are within reason. ie same as driving at 60mph. I would need a lot of persuading to do it to a new car. BUT there is also a manual version that can be left in neutral same as any other car. My Grandaughters car the I bought her, a 2004 Toyota Yaris the manual says it is allowed, and is fully approved by them.
As against towing the Smart I was not aware of tankslapping tendencies but my early motorcycle experience put me right off the idea of lock to lockers. The power steering does damp out any tendency to move the steering without a lot of effort as I also found out when an AA man towed me to Folkestone to a dealer .. No vacuum brakes and no power steering made a terrifying trip down Dover Hill into Folkestone/
The bungee idea would not seem very good as it could easily go over the top of the wheel and hold it askew without the power to bring it back again after a sharp turn. EXIT two front tyres in short order. I need to concoct a suitable dampening device on the steering shaft, after making the brake system.

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[Pausim]

The bungee idea would not seem very good as it could easily go over the top of the wheel and hold it askew without the power to bring it back again after a sharp turn. EXIT two front tyres in short order. I need to concoct a suitable dampening device on the steering shaft, after making the brake system.

That was the very reason I devised my over the steering wheel hub damper.

I need to correct my earlier post because I modified the arrangement. I ended up using a short length of garden hose with a length of rope running through it. I tied off the rope at each end of the hose using a bowline knot. This gave me two loops to hook my bungee straps to and stopped the hose sliding along the rope. The hose pipe sat on the small gap between the steering wheel hub and the fixed bit of the steering column and was anchored with two bungee straps to the seat floor rails. It provided just enough friction to stop the steering wheel banging from stop to stop without restricting the full range of movement needed.

 

[Ukbandit]

Pappa John....This time you are wrong my mate! The A frame works well if you have a steering lock and power steering. The smart car up to 2014 does not have either. It also has bigger wheels at the back than the front.
So...when you try to pull away with one connected via the A frame...the steering wheel in the cab of the smart does not have any resistance to the pull so...it moves left and right until it overcomes the problem naturally. Car atow and towtal put the A frame on the smart and have to use the bungee strap from the seat frame to the steering wheel to lock it in place stopping the judder that will and it does ..take place.
Hope you dont get offended? But its a fact. Trust me..it shakes like a bugger without the steering wheel being locked in centre.

Kev

I can confirm that, mine used to do it and once it ripped the threaded towing captivated nut in the chassis panel out, I had to have it welded. Sadly didn’t know about the bungee strap, I bought a £1600 trailer instead, purple bricks moment.

 

[GWAYGWAY]

No need for me to tow, toad to Watford any more to another Expert garage, It is now fixed and runs like a train.. Poor power limited RPM to 3000, loads of do this, and do that advice from all over the place, but to no avail.. I have done it now, it was THE ESP stability unit under the passenger seat. It was a bad connection to the harness, AND the tracking needs doing as there is a mismatch between going forwards in a straight line and the wheel being straight, this causes a mismatch in the paramaters in the control unit, I will track it straight and do another Sensor reset so everything will be set correctly. A month or so sorting the unsolvable (MB specialists with Star set) and I have cracked it now. all this has led to me getting a latish Smart for a low sum as the previous owner could not fix it economically. It will be going to Peterborough on the back of the van, now, See you all there. Anyone want a Honda CG125 out of the van garage?? But now I also know about wobbling and have already made up an engineering solution for it.

 

[pappajohn]

Look down at the castors next time you are in Tescos or Morrisons or whatever...watch the front castors shuffle before the speed you push it at..allows them to be equal. Now thats Physics for you!

The wheels on a supermarket trolley have neither camber nor caster...... Unlike ALL MOTOR VEHICLES. They do however have a pivoting trailing arm which is unstable until a reasonable forward speed is reached.

You have your beliefs, I, along with probably millions of others, know how the principle works.
I am not arguing, better things to do.

 

[GWAYGWAY]

The wheels on a supermarket trolley have neither camber nor caster...... Unlike ALL MOTOR VEHICLES. They do however have a pivoting trailing arm which is unstable until a reasonable forward speed is reached.

You have your beliefs, I, along with probably millions of others, know how the principle works.
I am not arguing, better things to do.

They have no trail and that is why they need a castor angle to work . Try riding a motorbike with poor steering angles/setup, and you would not not want to go on it again.

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[pappajohn]

If this judder is violent enough to shake the rear of the motorhome how does a mere bungee strap prevent it.
A bungee is nothing more than an elasticated cord with a hook at each end, it possesses no real strength...and If it was tightened to its absolute extreme why use a bungee and not a ratchet strap. ... If it had enough inertial strength to prevent the wheel moving how could it be fitted by hand, the forces imposed by an oscillating wheel will far exceed hand force.

And then we move on to normal cornering.... If there's enough strength in the bungee to prevent the wheel oscillating how does the wheel turn in corners which may require more than one full rotation of the steering wheel at times. ... Or do the road wheels simply get dragged sideways round corners?
It can't allow turns AND rigidity of the steering wheel.

 

[GWAYGWAY]

VW used a steering tescopic damper on the track rods for the Variant, to cut down on wheels shake. that would be the best but complication that might not be needed. A revolving damper is not a good idea

 

[GWAYGWAY]

I towed the Smart to a repair specialist at Watford, as the restriction came back the next day after driving it for miles and OK. They put it on the diagnotics and redid a upgraded download, Off you go he said for test it is fine now. Up the road and the 3000rpm is still there but wil go away on a sharp left pull away for a short distance.. They are baffled and said it has to be mechanical as ALL the electronics are reading perfectly. I have been on a short run now I am back home and it still does the left pullaway and go but change up and it is 3000 again. Driving me mad.
It did the wheel swinging trick on me on the first sharp right bend, so I know what the forum where on about, shhok the van a lot until I stopped and pulled away again no problems after that as I know when it might occur.
I wish I had never seen it though as it makes me out to be a fool, and the Smart bloke as well. He has done them fulltime for 19 years and has never seen it before. I will look a the wiring being tight or the like pulling a bad connection.
Any other mechanical fault to add for my list?????????????????

 

[PeteH]

Pappa John....This time you are wrong my mate! The A frame works well if you have a steering lock and power steering. The smart car up to 2014 does not have either. It also has bigger wheels at the back than the front.
So...when you try to pull away with one connected via the A frame...the steering wheel in the cab of the smart does not have any resistance to the pull so...it moves left and right until it overcomes the problem naturally. Car atow and towtal put the A frame on the smart and have to use the bungee strap from the seat frame to the steering wheel to lock it in place stopping the judder that will and it does ..take place.
Hope you dont get offended? But its a fact. Trust me..it shakes like a bugger without the steering wheel being locked in centre.

Kev

Well. I have to tell you I towed my 02 Smart several thousand miles, Never had a bungee. (except from the brake pedal to make SURE it came "off") and had no issue with the Wheels doing anything but following the R-V. Just like my current Fiat Punto. It sat rock steady in the rear camera. no tracking or tram-lining.

 

[PeteH]

To make shopping easier I’m thinking of putting a shopping trolley on the back of my motorhome, anyone know who’s best to fit an a frame to a Sainsbury’s trolley.

I f you send me dimensions, I`ll custom make you one?. Could be expensive though, getting the EU certification is VERY costly.

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[Larrynwin]

I f you send me dimensions, I`ll custom make you one?. Could be expensive though, getting the EU certification is VERY costly.

I could be off my trolley

 

[PeteH]

I could be off my trolley

Join a (very) large club!.

 

[GWAYGWAY]

It is fixed again, I tried it out and the thing took off after going left at the same junction it did before only to die at next change up.. This was getting consistant so I had a brainwave. How about a tight ongoing left turn???? So went of to the overlad carpark at the castle. There I put on Left lock hard over and floored it for three or four doughnuts, The ESP kicked in and the damn thing ran properly and has continued to run properl since. It is the Yaw sensor that is faulty but as it is a trifle expensive I will suck it and see until or if it goes again before buying a replacement. Mercedes bit are a trifle dear you know. At the moment it is still going well so??????????????? two months of anguish and paying people and not getting it done, having done everything I could it turn out to be a device that would not show on the computor as a fault, just doing the wrong thing at the wrong instead of the right thing at the wrong time.

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

The wheels on a supermarket trolley have neither camber nor caster...... Unlike ALL MOTOR VEHICLES. They do however have a pivoting trailing arm which is unstable until a reasonable forward speed is reached.

You have your beliefs, I, along with probably millions of others, know how the principle works.
I am not arguing, better things to do.

See...You like to put you theory across regardless of it being potentially wrong again.
Personally Do as you please! Im sure you will enjoy what ever you feel the need to do!

I am just an amoeba in a very large pond of fish who seem to know better than the rest!
Im guessing here but...Sounds a little bit like Life !

Hey oh.

 

[tonyidle]

See...You like to put you theory across regardless of it being potentially wrong again.
Personally Do as you please! Im sure you will enjoy what ever you feel the need to do!

I am just an amoeba in a very large pond of fish who seem to know better than the rest!
Im guessing here but...Sounds a little bit like Life !

Hey oh.

My take on the effect is that there are too many variables to allow a definitive statement on cause, or on whether oscillation will or will not occur under particular circumstances with a particular vehicle. Heavily damped steering will prevent it and PAS equipped vehicles are about as heavily damped as they come with the PAS inactive. A bungee will offer resistance to turning that probably modifies the steering characteristics enough to prevent the effect but my concern, already expressed in an earlier post, is what will happen on a tight turn when the steering wheel needs to go past a half turn? Probably nothing if the bungee doesn't tangle. If it does it will either break or will fail to allow the steering to re-centralise once the turn is complete.

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[PeteH]

As regards the Smart on a 2015 plate being able to tow it... look at the picture below. It is forsale on another site
As regards the bungee strap ...There are two on the Car a Tow and Towtal set ups. One from brake pedal to seat frame . Seat being pushed as far back as it will go
The other bungee strap wraps around the steering wheel and down to the seat frame to prevent the steering wheel go into full lock either way..left or right.
As to whether or not you should or should not do it..thats entirely up to the individual. Regardless of the companies actually insisting on them when in use.

On a personal note...I thought this site was to allow for everyone to put an opinion forward with out harrassment or verbal abuse of any sorts? Why the issue with some responses off various folk trying to either belittle others?
I use the site to learn from folk and hopefully to pass on my knowledge with anything that I can do.
It seems that just lately there are more folk who like to bring others down in the way so as to make them either feel small or wrong in their views or answers?

Shame that this is becoming more apparent on here.

Just my opinion.. I just wish folk would just get on rather than annoy each other.

Can I just point out, That the Smart shown likely has a Manual Gearbox?. Virtually ALL manual cars can be "flat towed". It (the manual option) became available Circa 2014. I KNOW it was available in the American Market.

 

[PeteH]

Am rather intrigued about this wobble thing. I towed an old Fiat panda around for years on a home made Aframe with several different motorhomes. It did have this mysterious wobble occasionally on my Tiffin Allegro and I found it was due to the towball height. After fitting a drop plate on the RV the panda was fine afterwards. Am just wondering if some Smarties are OK and some not, is it due to the motorhome ball height. My old Panda car below.
View attachment 283986

There is a sticker on my Caratow frame which actually states the Ball Height must not exceed 16"? (I think). I had drop plates on all mine. The "perceived wisdom" is that the Bar (frame) should be as nearly parallel with the ground as possible.

The current "Smarts" share 70% of their "kit" with the Renault Twingo BTW.

 

[GWAYGWAY]

On the matter of steering resonance, I had this happen within a mile of coupling to the van. It was a sharpish turn to the right at a junction. I know why it happened there as well. I had to stop and then it settled down never to happen again on the whole trip and back home again.
As I turned the smartie was made to go LEFT by the long overhang on my van as I went right, It then HAD to follow me right, and it was actually going left then IMMEDIATELY to the right which put a lot of input to the steering system, and it continued passed the correct angle then as I accelerated away, it went back left then right in an increasing wobble, I watched the wheel on the rear view camera turning furiously side to side until I had slowed enough to stop the resonance. Simple way to stop it was to go around sharp turns slower that before I had the Toad on. It did not do it at all when coupled to my car as there is no real overhang to the tow ball at all. The van has 2 metres or thereabout so there is a big opposite motion to start it off. That is my input to the ARGUMENT on here. I will look to fitting a proper damper to the steeing links off the rack and it doesn't need to be a strong one, a motorcycle one with enought travel will do nicely and adjustable as well. The smart does jump about a lot on the road anyway so might be adjantagious to have one, the electrical PS models have a geared motor on the bottom of the shaft and are retro fittable?? The wiring is on mine and it needs the shaft motor and the controller box, however as the steering is very light it doesn't need power anyway.

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

My take on the effect is that there are too many variables to allow a definitive statement on cause, or on whether oscillation will or will not occur under particular circumstances with a particular vehicle. Heavily damped steering will prevent it and PAS equipped vehicles are about as heavily damped as they come with the PAS inactive. A bungee will offer resistance to turning that probably modifies the steering characteristics enough to prevent the effect but my concern, already expressed in an earlier post, is what will happen on a tight turn when the steering wheel needs to go past a half turn? Probably nothing if the bungee doesn't tangle. If it does it will either break or will fail to allow the steering to re-centralise once the turn is complete.

The bungee is actually from the seat frame to the bottom of the steering wheel. On the smart car up to 2014 If the steering wheel is a triple as is on mine

The bungee strap goes between the lower section back to the seat. As regards a full turn left or right..it is physically prevented from allowing the steering wheel to turn through 180 degrees. This in itself prevents the steering from chattering or 'wobbling' because of t preventing movement beyond a point to cause it.

The bungee can or could break i am sure but to be honest...how long is a piece of string? It will give to the point of return and then reset. We have been around islands and tight turns of varying types. It has not failed us yet . That does not mean it will not of course.
Then ...I would buy a new bungee!
If there is a fault...then it comes down to the scuffing of the tyres on the front. Why?.......Because the steering wheel is prevented from going past a point to allow a full turn . With the strap /bungee attached...it prevents to the point of allowing a turn but not a full lock turn.
Hopefully my opinion will not come across as if 'I am God' on Smart cars and tow frames! Trust me ...I am not. I just feel comfortable with what we have and Therefore we are more than happy with how it performs

Kind regards Kev

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

If this judder is violent enough to shake the rear of the motorhome how does a mere bungee strap prevent it.
A bungee is nothing more than an elasticated cord with a hook at each end, it possesses no real strength...and If it was tightened to its absolute extreme why use a bungee and not a ratchet strap. ... If it had enough inertial strength to prevent the wheel moving how could it be fitted by hand, the forces imposed by an oscillating wheel will far exceed hand force.

And then we move on to normal cornering.... If there's enough strength in the bungee to prevent the wheel oscillating how does the wheel turn in corners which may require more than one full rotation of the steering wheel at times. ... Or do the road wheels simply get dragged sideways round corners?
It can't allow turns AND rigidity of the steering wheel.

You obviously have no clue to A frame towing with a smart car bud!
Have you Googled this and come up with this answer?
Try putting one behind the truck you drive and see if you can cope with it when it happens! Forces of Physics have no bearing on it . Trust me!
You are obviously failing to see the issue? Is this a wood for the trees moment for you?

Do not take offense please. I do actually respect my elders. In this case you have failed to see the problem that is in front of you ? If I have offended you then I am sorry in advance. If its me then explain what it is that I ( who is pulling a Smart car with a A frame ) should do to prevent the problems that occur ?
I am always prepared to listen and learn.
I was once told..." Two heads are better than one..even if one is a sheeps"?


Kev

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