Strange battery problem

[DBK]

On the version of the manual I found

View attachment 436656

I'm guessing the positives are not grounded, assuming your vehicle is negative earth, but having both positives connected together is very odd.

 

[PhilandMena]

I had a look back at photos I took when I first bought the van last September and the same lights were on! I wonder if it is indicating that it has diconnected the charge as battery is fully charged?

The manual states greater than 75% ? It might automatically switch off when the on board charger is switched on ? |Otherwise I would expect it to stay on even if the batteries were full. I suggest, tomorrow you switch off your on board charger put a load on your Hab batteries and see if the solar panel then kicks in.

 

[Lenny HB]

Ah, unlikely on a 2004 model I think.

If will be a Classic fan takes a bit more power on low around 1.25amps.

 

[clanjones]

PhilandMena you are of course correct! I didn't explain myself properly. Didn't help that I couldn't write properly either!

I just take s note of current draw as appliances start up. Very happy with the kit.

 

[SandraL]

If the positives are connected together internally,. And the negatives are connected externally then the solar controller will not be doing much controlling?
Perhaps wire so that there are no shared negatives.

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[autorouter]

What an utterly bizarre design decision. Postive earth vehicles haven't been common since the 1960s.

It was probably designed for a different application - a security light, a road sign, a CCTV transmitter etc. Then marketing decided to sell it to the leisure vehicle market.

The PV panels normally have both positive and negative isolated from the frame, so no automatic earth on that side. The battery negative is normally earthed to the chassis, but the controller is plastic and doesn't have an earth connection itself, so that won't matter. The battery negative is the only earthing point. No loads are connected to the load terminals, so no problem there.

The big problem is the negative link between the PV negative and the battery negative. Since the positives are linked internally, linking the negatives shorts the battery to the PV panels. Is that why it's showingthe high voltage error?

I'd suggest the PV positive and negative wires are kept entirely separate, all the way from the panel terminals to the controller terminals. Also wire the battery positive and negative with separate wires.

All the solar controllers I've seen can be wired with the negatives linked, but this one looks like the exception.

Edit: Sorry didn't see SandraL's post which says the same thing with less words.

 

[Vic. Parsons.]

No. You cannot assess the amount of usable power (capacity) in the battery with an LED indicator or a meter.
The battery voltage indicator may indicate fully charged but it will drop very quickly when a load is applied to a knackered battery.

Although not a leisure battery, I just saw this with a 3 month old starter battery on a Dutch van. When he tried to start the engine, there were no lights on the dash, completely dead. With the battery disconnected, we charged it using a generator at 8 amps for a couple of hours hoping this might be enough to start the engine.
The battery was reading 12.65v after charging but as soon as it was connected on the van, the same problem with no lights on the dash occured. Checking the voltage again while connected, it was showing 3.5v, a totally goosed battery that was only 3 months old.
He bought a new starter battery and it fired up first turn.

 

[engelside]

It was probably designed for a different application - a security light, a road sign, a CCTV transmitter etc. Then marketing decided to sell it to the leisure vehicle market.

The PV panels normally have both positive and negative isolated from the frame, so no automatic earth on that side. The battery negative is normally earthed to the chassis, but the controller is plastic and doesn't have an earth connection itself, so that won't matter. The battery negative is the only earthing point. No loads are connected to the load terminals, so no problem there.

The big problem is the negative link between the PV negative and the battery negative. Since the positives are linked internally, linking the negatives shorts the battery to the PV panels. Is that why it's showingthe high voltage error?

I'd suggest the PV positive and negative wires are kept entirely separate, all the way from the panel terminals to the controller terminals. Also wire the battery positive and negative with separate wires.

All the solar controllers I've seen can be wired with the negatives linked, but this one looks like the exception.

Edit: Sorry didn't see SandraL's post which says the same thing with less words.

Thanks for those comments. This is something I will look at possibly this weekend when I have more time. I am going to get a Victron smart shunt before I do anything as I then should be able to se what charge is going into the battery via pv, hook up and engine.

 

[Trackman]

Is the solar controller wired correctly?
The neg wire that should go to the battery seems to be wired to the solar panel negative. Surely the battery neg should go to the battery, with no negative wire from solar neg to batt neg terminals on the solar controller.
This looking at photo, the item without the large label.

I agree, from the photo the controller is wired wrongly.
The battery -ve terminal on it should be wired only to the battery -ve, likewise for +ve terminal to battery +ve.

If you assumed the battery was being kept topped up by the solar, it clearly won't have been. This may explain why the battery isn't in a good state. They slowly self discharge if left idle, & will eventually die from this, left long enough.

Ignore the stuff about "load" in the manual, this relates to usage to automatically supply a load like street lighting. This load would be connected to the third set of terminals on the controller. The system then works to power the load from the solar when that's feasible, or from the batteries when there's no solar. The batteries then only get charged when solar power is greater than demand from the load.

You don't want that, you need all solar power to go to the battery that you're taking the loads from directly.

 

[AndyVW]

Hi All. Battery,s are not a simply subject, and I,m afraid to say the industry doesn't help much.
I,m no longer attached to it so I can share with you. some specifics.
Lead acid battery,s (or Flooded) as they are officially called. come sealed or semi sealed. BOTH require ventilation. are used for starting mainly. you can get deep cycle but are expensive.
AGM battery's are genuinely sealed and can be placed inside. BUT require a special algorithm to charge them, so bat to bat chargers with a flooded chassis battery doesn't work ... or should I say it will but, it will shorten the life of an AGM.
Gel, is basically the same as AGM for charging but has the benefit of mounting anywhere or at any angle,
they were produced for the boat industry.

The point here is You must never mix one with an other of differing out puts All it will do is shorten its life.
we have all herd a user saying "AGM,s are rubbish" or the Gel didn't last long. Its been my experience that B2B fitted to a chassis flooded battery was the culprit.
If your going to change the leisure batts match the chassis batt at the same time if B2B is fitted or fit Alternator to battery controller. as these have adjustments for different battery types.

As far a capacity of battery and the amount you use, that I,m afraid is an individuals question to sort.

I havnt mention Lithium, as everything changes, and charging rates is very important
I have also had to make sum assumptions here namely all the leisure batts are deep cycle. and not clones of starter battery's

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[engelside]

I agree, from the photo the controller is wired wrongly.
The battery -ve terminal on it should be wired only to the battery -ve, likewise for +ve terminal to battery +ve.

If you assumed the battery was being kept topped up by the solar, it clearly won't have been. This may explain why the battery isn't in a good state. They slowly self discharge if left idle, & will eventually die from this, left long enough.

Ignore the stuff about "load" in the manual, this relates to usage to automatically supply a load like street lighting. This load would be connected to the third set of terminals on the controller. The system then works to power the load from the solar when that's feasible, or from the batteries when there's no solar. The batteries then only get charged when solar power is greater than demand from the load.

You don't want that, you need all solar power to go to the battery that you're taking the loads from directly.

Thanks for that.

I am still wondering if it is something to do with the "other" pv controller box to the right of the Phocos controller. maybe someone in the past has added this and rewired it incorrectly!

I have ordered a Victron smart shunt and will hopefully get chance to install this weekend. This should indicate if there is anything going into the battery from the pv.

I will also take the cover off the other pv controller and try and sketch the wiring to see if I can make sense of it.

 

[PhilandMena]

One of the big problems for users is many leisure batteries are mislabeled starter batteries. A shoddy industry indeed.

 

[engelside]

Hi All. Battery,s are not a simply subject, and I,m afraid to say the industry doesn't help much.
I,m no longer attached to it so I can share with you. some specifics.
Lead acid battery,s (or Flooded) as they are officially called. come sealed or semi sealed. BOTH require ventilation. are used for starting mainly. you can get deep cycle but are expensive.
AGM battery's are genuinely sealed and can be placed inside. BUT require a special algorithm to charge them, so bat to bat chargers with a flooded chassis battery doesn't work ... or should I say it will but, it will shorten the life of an AGM.
Gel, is basically the same as AGM for charging but has the benefit of mounting anywhere or at any angle,
they were produced for the boat industry.

The point here is You must never mix one with an other of differing out puts All it will do is shorten its life.
we have all herd a user saying "AGM,s are rubbish" or the Gel didn't last long. Its been my experience that B2B fitted to a chassis flooded battery was the culprit.
If your going to change the leisure batts match the chassis batt at the same time if B2B is fitted or fit Alternator to battery controller. as these have adjustments for different battery types.

As far a capacity of battery and the amount you use, that I,m afraid is an individuals question to sort.

I havnt mention Lithium, as everything changes, and charging rates is very important
I have also had to make sum assumptions here namely all the leisure batts are deep cycle. and not clones of starter battery's

Sorry if I have misunderstood, but are you saying match the stater battery with the leisure battery?

i.e. if flooded battery starter then must be same type leisure battery?

 

[engelside]

So, I disconnected hook up and turned heating on - Fan kicked in ok.

Checked a few minutes later and lights on solar controller(s) had changed to indicate that it was drawing power from pv. Also control panel battery charge indicator has dropped from 14v (on hook up) to 12v (with 13v flickering).

Seems to me that the pv is wired correctly somehow but the battery is definitely knackered.

Edit:

Phocos state of charge display indicates <25% energy available until Low Voltage Disconnect (I think). This is defined by a jumper setting, which I will check at the weekend, to be either 'State of Charge controlled" (factory setting) or Voltage controlled.

 

[Mike800966]

Bearing in mind the dificulty with rating a leisure battery, I have been thinking for some time in building a unit using 12v bulbs as a load to show the time taken for a leisure battery voltage to fall to a certain level.
Not much more than a 741 and zener holding a relay to run a clock type thing.
Anyone care to take it further?
Mike

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[Catpirate]

Hi I get about 2-3 days out of my two 75ah Yuasa batteries. As i enjoy wildcamping or am often on sites without power I also have a generator. Important to use a pure sine wave generator if you connect it to the MOHO electrical system, as most systems have sensitive electronics (TV, laptop, phones etc.)

 

[autorouter]

How about this for a suggestion? The way the Phocos controller is wired, it is effectively just directly connecting the PV panels straight through to its battery terminals.

If you see that as a problem, one solution might be to wire a second solar controller to the Phocos battery terminals, so that at least you get some control. Is that what the previous owner did? Do you have any info on the second controller? Make, model etc?

Also it's difficult to see from the photo where the wires connect for the different terminals. Where do the wires from the battery fit in?

 

[engelside]

How about this for a suggestion? The way the Phocos controller is wired, it is effectively just directly connecting the PV panels straight through to its battery terminals.

If you see that as a problem, one solution might be to wire a second solar controller to the Phocos battery terminals, so that at least you get some control. Is that what the previous owner did? Do you have any info on the second controller? Make, model etc?

Also it's difficult to see from the photo where the wires connect for the different terminals. Where do the wires from the battery fit in?

At the moment I do suspect that the Phocos is directly wired to the second controller. I am going to hopefully spend some time this weekend working out the wiring.

 

[Bill and Tracey]

Bought a new lead acid battery in April, maintenance-free supposedly. A week ago I checked the state of charge after the van had been standing for a couple of weeks, it was down to 10.8 even with the solar panels getting plenty of sun. Straight in the shed and on trickle charge (a ctek 7-stage job). Left it for a couple of days. Charger had shut down at stage 5. Unable to retain charge. Removed the cover on cell 1 to a bone dry warped set of plates. £120 down the pan. I've not read through the whole of this post so I might be echoing the advice of others......check your levels. I won't be buying maintenance-free again. Stay safe

 

[autorouter]

Suggestion number two. The second controller is made by Laboratorio Elettronico Campoli. On their web site I can't see this model, maybe it is obsolete. Since CBE is Italian, maybe that was the original solar controller, and for some reason the previous owner added the Phocos controller, including the linked negatives.

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[engelside]

Suggestion number two. The second controller is made by Laboratorio Elettronico Campoli. On their web site I can't see this model, maybe it is obsolete. Since CBE is Italian, maybe that was the original solar controller, and for some reason the previous owner added the Phocos controller, including the linked negatives.

Good call. I don't know why I made the assumption that it might be the LEC controller that was added when the van was made in Italy

Was hoping to both install the smart shunt arriving tomorrow and have a look at the wiring from the panel to the controller(s) but the weather is set to be dreadful over the weekend so that might have to wait.

I also need to read up about what the pv controller actually does!

 

[PhilandMena]

Did you try the suggestion I made in post #62 ??

 

[engelside]

Did you try the suggestion I made in post #62 ??

So, I disconnected hook up and turned heating on - Fan kicked in ok.

Checked a few minutes later and lights on solar controller(s) had changed to indicate that it was drawing power from pv. Also control panel battery charge indicator has dropped from 14v (on hook up) to 12v (with 13v flickering).

Seems to me that the pv is wired correctly somehow but the battery is definitely knackered.

Edit:

Phocos state of charge display indicates <25% energy available until Low Voltage Disconnect (I think). This is defined by a jumper setting, which I will check at the weekend, to be either 'State of Charge controlled" (factory setting) or Voltage controlled.

Is this what you meant?

 

[PhilandMena]

Is this what you meant?

Yes! I am of the view you now know your controller is wired up correctly. The second mystery box is there due to the way your controller is wired up and you have confirmation the capacity of your leisure battery is used up. Some advice ! If you always do what you've always done you will always get what you've always got ! You need to change what your doing or its going to happen again. The best way forward for you I.M.O. is double your hab batteries and get a shed load of solar on the roof. make sure your on board Charger and solar regulator can cope with the total size of your battery bank and Solar Panels. Don't forget your cab battery when it comes to charging off grid. A decent controller will look after that, no point in spending loads of money on gadgets you can do without. Best of luck going forward and keep safe. Not all advice on here is correct !!

 

[engelside]

Yes! I am of the view you now know your controller is wired up correctly. The second mystery box is there due to the way your controller is wired up and you have confirmation the capacity of your leisure battery is used up. Some advice ! If you always do what you've always done you will always get what you've always got ! You need to change what your doing or its going to happen again. The best way forward for you I.M.O. is double your hab batteries and get a shed load of solar on the roof. make sure your on board Charger and solar regulator can cope with the total size of your battery bank and Solar Panels. Don't forget your cab battery when it comes to charging off grid. A decent controller will look after that, no point in spending loads of money on gadgets you can do without. Best of luck going forward and keep safe. Not all advice on here is correct !!

Thanks for your (and others) input to this thread.

The plan now is to
1) get the smart shunt installed (as soon as weather permits)) so I can understand our energy usage more.
2) I will look at the solar controller(s) wiring to try and ascertain exactly what is going on there.
3) Try and work out where I could add second battery. There is space directly above the existing battery in the garage but on our longer trips the garage is usually full so it would be a pain to lose space there.
4) When I can see how well the current solar panel is working (the van/panel is 16 years old) I can have a look if I can replace/add more capacity.

All part and parcel of owning a van for me to be honest and I am looking forward to getting to understand how the 12v system works in more detail.

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[autorouter]

For future reference, if you ever replace/upgrade your solar controller(s), look at Victron SmartSolar. As well as having a Bluetooth phone app, they will get the battery voltage and temperature data from the SmartShunt by Bluetooth, for more accurate charging control.

 

[engelside]

For future reference, if you ever replace/upgrade your solar controller(s), look at Victron SmartSolar. As well as having a Bluetooth phone app, they will get the battery voltage and temperature data from the SmartShunt by Bluetooth, for more accurate charging control.

I have definitely got my eye on the Victron contoller nd wil see what comes of looking at my current setup in more detail.

I haven't bought the temp sensor cable with the shunt but will look at this going forward. I have read that the fact that the cable is only attached to positive terminal means that the temperature isn't necessarily that accurate though.