Steering on Fiat Ducato

[hymerman]

As was stated earlier by NF camper ( I think ) , unless the source of the problem has been rectified then it's likely to happen again due to the continued water ingress .

 

[NF camper]

As was stated earlier by NF camper ( I think ) , unless the source of the problem has been rectified then it's likely to happen again due to the continued water ingress .

Correct

 

[jockaneezer]

Juddergate, scuttlegate, steeringate.....?

 

[Guigsy]

As was stated earlier by NF camper ( I think ) , unless the source of the problem has been rectified then it's likely to happen again due to the continued water ingress .

The early x250 Ducatos had an issue with the throttle body. It was orientated so water collected around the actuator. They had a high failure rate that took Fiat a couple of years and a couple of revisions to rectify. Eventually they changed the design so the actuator housing was facing down, and updated the harness connectors.

It's quite possible that the latest Ducato has a change to the rack to make it easier to integrate with electric versions...

Or it could just be coincidence.

 

[NF camper]

Engineering changes happen all the time. They may have made a change to reduce faults in one area, to make assembly more reliable, or to change supplier because they weren't getting enough deliveries. Or sometimes the change is from a supplied part and Fiat won't know anything about it. And obviously, occasionally these changes don't work, or they create a different problem.

I appreciate that engineering changes happen but surely any manufacturer would model the impact of any change. With all the predictive analytics tools and design software available to manufacturing design engineers this should not be an issue in todays world. It would be crazy if a design alteration was released without any understanding of potential impact in other areas.

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[growly_bear]

Juddergate, scuttlegate, steeringate.....?

And don't forget airbaggate!

 

[jockaneezer]

I appreciate that engineering changes happen but surely any manufacturer would model the impact of any change. With all the predictive analytics tools and design software available to manufacturing design engineers this should not be an issue in todays world. It would be crazy if a design alteration was released without any understanding of potential impact in other areas.

I just watched one of Jimmy O'Reily's videos on a dpf problem yesterday with a new Vauxhall Vivaro (Renault Traffic/Nissan Primastar) van. He was astounded by how much worse the access was to anything on the engine now (glow plugs, sensors etc) compared to the older models.
Dealership mechanics should have more input during the design stage or the designers should be made to do a tour of duty in a workshop every couple of years ?

 

[SpeedyDux]

I get the impression that whenever there is a bottleneck in the supply chain, vehicle manufacturers will resist an official safety Recall.

They seem to prioritise the available new parts concerned to new vehicle assembly at the factory, hence the long delays, even several months, in getting these new parts for warranty repairs. It could be why they resist having to provide more widespread Recall replacements, that would impact the production lines due to shortage of these parts.

This might also be an inherent consequence of "just-in-time" manufacturing and related unwillingness to have significant stocks of spare parts.

I think the law should be changed so that manufacturers are forced to provide a "loan" equivalent vehicle for free until the repair is completed.

 

[Guigsy]

I appreciate that engineering changes happen but surely any manufacturer would model the impact of any change. With all the predictive analytics tools and design software available to manufacturing design engineers this should not be an issue in todays world. It would be crazy if a design alteration was released without any understanding of potential impact in other areas.

They use tons of tools and analysis. And do lots of testing. But the real world is still way more complex.

An issue I've witnessed was a piece of pre-bent flexible pipework that hadn't changed for years started to see failures. Delivered by a supplier. Turns out their mandrills had got a little worn and the pipework was a couple of mm longer and the bends not quite as tight. But still within the spec. Over a long horizontal span, and a few thousand miles for the car to relax everything, it was enough for the pipe to sag and start chaffing on a bracket. Reality is hard!

 

[the1andonly]

I appreciate that engineering changes happen but surely any manufacturer would model the impact of any change. With all the predictive analytics tools and design software available to manufacturing design engineers this should not be an issue in todays world. It would be crazy if a design alteration was released without any understanding of potential impact in other areas.

PFMEA Process Failure Effect Analysis
Been done/ ignored for years. The most famous example is the space shuttle Challenger where Orings failed due to temperature of lift off. Morton Thiokol (engineers said not been tested at such low temperatures ) no lift off NASA HE SAY you will say yes.
My last week at work having been made redundant was rushing a few through before a Govmt safety inspection (make the only engineer trained and half experienced redundant no, or even ask someone to do something so important in last week at work).

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[kingmid]

‘They seem to prioritise the available new parts concerned to new vehicle assembly at the factory, hence the long delays, even several months, in getting these new parts for warranty repairs.’


That’s pretty much what we were told by the dealer. Having had the conversation several times with Fiat Customer Services about why parts used for the production line were not available it seems there are two ordering ‘systems’ for components, one for the production line and one for warranty work. The production line always gets preference- after all they’ve already got our money.

 

[Guigsy]

‘They seem to prioritise the available new parts concerned to new vehicle assembly at the factory, hence the long delays, even several months, in getting these new parts for warranty repairs.’


That’s pretty much what we were told by the dealer. Having had the conversation several times with Fiat Customer Services about why parts used for the production line were not available it seems there are two ordering ‘systems’ for components, one for the production line and one for warranty work. The production line always gets preference- after all they’ve already got our money.

Parts companies would prefer to send 100 parts to a factory than 100 parts that end up with 100 different garages and parts compares. They get their money sooner, with far less overhead, and far fewer returns.

If a factory has to stop because they're out of parts (which is happening a lot at the moment!), they don't just delay revenue on those unbuilt cars, they've also still got to pay the employees for doing nothing. And pay them again for when the lost cars do get built (usually as overtime to catch back, so even higher cost). Factories put massive penalty clauses on suppliers that fail to deliver.

 

[hymerman]

Parts companies would prefer to send 100 parts to a factory than 100 parts that end up with 100 different garages and parts compares. They get their money sooner, with far less overhead, and far fewer returns.

If a factory has to stop because they're out of parts (which is happening a lot at the moment!), they don't just delay revenue on those unbuilt cars, they've also still got to pay the employees for doing nothing. And pay them again for when the lost cars do get built (usually as overtime to catch back, so even higher cost). Factories put massive penalty clauses on suppliers that fail to deliver.

I once heard a story of a Japanese car manufacturer , (forget which ), anyway they put out to tender for a part for their cars , seat covering if I recall.
After looking at the chosen suppliers books they decided that the quoted price was too low and actually increased the price that they'd pay to the supplier.
Their reasoning being that they didn't want their whole car factory being on shut down because a key component supplier had gone out of business.
Makes perfect sense rather than the European guys that will screw you to the wall to save on costs , which could actually cost them much more if they have to shut down because of the above.

 

[Guigsy]

I once heard a story of a Japanese car manufacturer , (forget which ), anyway they put out to tender for a part for their cars , seat covering if I recall.
After looking at the chosen suppliers books they decided that the quoted price was too low and actually increased the price that they'd pay to the supplier.
Their reasoning being that they didn't want their whole car factory being on shut down because a key component supplier had gone out of business.
Makes perfect sense rather than the European guys that will screw you to the wall to save on costs , which could actually cost them much more if they have to shut down because of the above.

I've seen a European manufacturer audit all the suppliers that bid, determine they liked one supplier, but then invested a bunch of money in that supplier (they brought additional automation hardware and a stock control system for them, at no cost) to enable them to more reliably deliver. I've also seen a manufacturer send over a team of IT bods for a couple of weeks to help a supplier recover from a ransomware attack. But I agree, the Japanese brands are generally much better at it.

 

[rod_vw]

Do you folks who own Ducato etc. brands not have Internet access to full dealer level workshop manuals and similar level parts information?
I've always been a VW owner and am used to being able to access all such info parts wise it's easy to spot revisions due to thw way the numbering scheme works. VW actually offer full dealer level workshop information to download for a relatively modest fee.

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[SpeedyDux]

Parts companies would prefer to send 100 parts to a factory than 100 parts that end up with 100 different garages and parts compares. They get their money sooner, with far less overhead, and far fewer returns.

If a factory has to stop because they're out of parts (which is happening a lot at the moment!), they don't just delay revenue on those unbuilt cars, they've also still got to pay the employees for doing nothing. And pay them again for when the lost cars do get built (usually as overtime to catch back, so even higher cost). Factories put massive penalty clauses on suppliers that fail to deliver.

How does that penalty clause work in Japan or China where parts manufacturers tend to be joint ventures owned by car manufacturers?

The fundamental issue is that the parts manufacturers don't have the capacity to make (say) 500,000 extra new steering racks in a short space of time to fulfil a sudden demand created by an official safety Recall. Or a spate of Warranty claims.

The other problem arises where one manufacturer e.g. Takata has an effective monopoly for the supply of airbags to many car manufacturers. Look up Takata airbag Recalls on the interwebby. Huge problem across many car brands.

Supply chain breakdowns are an inherent risk of globalism. It creates over-reliance on a smaller number of parts manufacturers in various countries. That's more cost-effective ... until it goes haywire.

 

[lee s]

‘They seem to prioritise the available new parts concerned to new vehicle assembly at the factory, hence the long delays, even several months, in getting these new parts for warranty repairs.’


That’s pretty much what we were told by the dealer. Having had the conversation several times with Fiat Customer Services about why parts used for the production line were not available it seems there are two ordering ‘systems’ for components, one for the production line and one for warranty work. The production line always gets preference- after all they’ve already got our money.

Hi I was sorry to read your recent power steering debacle after a google search of the issue I have just had diagnosed. 24 plate ducato moho, exactly same issue and Fiat preston just confirmed new wiring loom required and on back order. I immediately rang Stellantis based upon your accounts to try and get a headstart on the foreseen delays. So far I am told only wiring looms needed? Did you also have steering rack and any other parts replaced please?
Can you give me any guidance or tips, even names/phone numbers that you found useful in getting you moho fixed eventually. Really grateful for any guidance you can send me. Thank you

 

[lee s]

Goods point, I will log the fault with DVSA as this failure falls into the reporting categories.

Hi sorry to jump on the thread and read your problem regarding the power steering. Im sadly in an identical situation as of today Fiat diagnosed water ingress to wiring loom on my 2024 moho causing loss of power steering. They have said they have seen this before and new looms needed but stated all parts on back orderCan I ask how you got on to date and have you had a full fix yet? If so how long were parts on order for? Any help or tips you can pass on to get our moho back on the road would be truly welcomed thanks Lee

 

[Swamp]

For those of us with new Fiat Ducatos that haven’t yet experienced this problem or those who have experienced it and had it fixed, I wonder if there is any preventative measures that can be taken to protect the components from water ingress and corrosion?
I live on the coast and the salt in the air eats everything so fighting corrosion on vehicles is an ongoing battle.
Any thoughts….?

 

[NF camper]

Hi sorry to jump on the thread and read your problem regarding the power steering. Im sadly in an identical situation as of today Fiat diagnosed water ingress to wiring loom on my 2024 moho causing loss of power steering. They have said they have seen this before and new looms needed but stated all parts on back orderCan I ask how you got on to date and have you had a full fix yet? If so how long were parts on order for? Any help or tips you can pass on to get our moho back on the road would be truly welcomed thanks Lee

Hi Lee, my van was finally repaired yesterday 6th November. It’s been off the road unroadworthy for 8 weeks waiting for all the parts from Fiat Italy. The van is now just over 6 months old and it’s been off the road 26% of the time since ownership. The repairs have been for replacement parts only - new steering rack and wiring looms, not the source of the problem so the failure could occur again at anytime. Someone told me it’s a band aid approach from Fiat! I have pressed Fiat for information they have on the cause of the problem but they are keeping quiet- they know they have a serious problem with these vehicles.

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[Pausim]

I think we need some new laws imposing penalties on manufacturers that prioritise new vehicle production above repairing those already sold. If they started losing serious amounts of money when vehicle parts were not available for repairs then they might try harder to keep them on the road.

I am thinking of calling Adams Morey to see if they have any suggestions on how to protect the steering parts involved. Before I do has anyone already received any advice on this?

 

[gus-lopez]

I think we need some new laws imposing penalties on manufacturers that prioritise new vehicle production above repairing those already sold.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[the1andonly]

Do you folks who own Ducato etc. brands not have Internet access to full dealer level workshop manuals and similar level parts information?
I've always been a VW owner and am used to being able to access all such info parts wise it's easy to spot revisions due to thw way the numbering scheme works. VW actually offer full dealer level workshop information to download for a relatively modest fee.

Short answer is no. Fiat stopped CD's in 2014with x250 information being the last. Stelantis have not allowed any workshop manuals or parts info to anyone other than Fiat pro dealers. the main online info suppliers have it @£200 a month contract. You need a friendly dealer to even get one page printed out. They are even very reticent to give part numbered invoices/lists for warrenty work. And And i say, the descriptions don't always fit what you think it might be.

 

[kingmid]

Hi Lee, my van was finally repaired yesterday 6th November. It’s been off the road unroadworthy for 8 weeks waiting for all the parts from Fiat Italy. The van is now just over 6 months old and it’s been off the road 26% of the time since ownership. The repairs have been for replacement parts only - new steering rack and wiring looms, not the source of the problem so the failure could occur again at anytime. Someone told me it’s a band aid approach from Fiat! I have pressed Fiat for information they have on the cause of the problem but they are keeping quiet- they know they have a serious problem with these vehicles.

Good to hear you’ve had your van repaired at last. Your Avatar shows an Autotrail Delaware, so wondering if you’ve changed this?

The vans affected so far that I’m aware of are all PVCs - there’s another on the Vantage FB page in addition to those on here. Has there been a batch of faulty parts used in the manufacture, or some other manufacture process that has led to this?

We too had the wiring looms and the full steering rack replaced. The dealer did this as they were unable to establish which of these caused the corrosion that led to the failure. Since repair we have done about 1000 miles and all seems ok. Clearly the issue is the cause of the corrosion and Fiat’s unwillingness to address this.

 

[NF camper]

Good to hear you’ve had your van repaired at last. Your Avatar shows an Autotrail Delaware, so wondering if you’ve changed this?

The vans affected so far that I’m aware of are all PVCs - there’s another on the Vantage FB page in addition to those on here. Has there been a batch of faulty parts used in the manufacture, or some other manufacture process that has led to this?

We too had the wiring looms and the full steering rack replaced. The dealer did this as they were unable to establish which of these caused the corrosion that led to the failure. Since repair we have done about 1000 miles and all seems ok. Clearly the issue is the cause of the corrosion and Fiat’s unwillingness to address this.

Morning, I have just updated my profile - my current vehicle is a Fiat Ducato (2024) Auto-Trail V-Line 635 Sport. Fiat have only replaced the defective parts - Steering Rack, Wiring looms and new cable harness. Fiat have not solved the source of the problem and I have been advised that the failure could occur again until this is sorted. Water seems to be tracking along the cable looms and entering the Steering block causing corrosion of the electrical connections (we know that electricity and water don't mix well!) and then steering failure occurs. Given the nature of the defect, I have reported the defect as a significant safety risk with DVSA - Driver and Vehicle Safety Agency. It's one of their key safety criteria "Steering components that break suddenly, resulting in partial or complete loss of vehicle control". They are currently investigating. Suggest that anyone else reading this do the same - we need Fiat to get things resolved before someone is seriously injured.

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[kingmid]

Today we’ve also reported to DVSA. See if anything comes of it.

 

[10tenmen]

Just seen this on another forum from someone with a similar issue.
Hi, my ducato 8 got sudden power steering drop out. Garage told me it’s due to lack of power supply caused by a corroded contact plug. See attched image, these are the connector plugs which have been taken out as part of provisionary repair in Fiat garage. Now, does anybody know the name/type of these connectors? My garage doesnt apparently and it’s unclear what spareparts to order. Sorry for bad image.. any hint is welcome! Thank you

 

[NF camper]

Today we’ve also reported to DVSA. See if anything comes of it.

DVSA asked some other associated questions following my initial report. They have done an initial assessment and now contacted Fiat and given them 28 days to respond.

 

[Jezza3553]

I have just last week had the same problem with power steering failure on my Ducato PVC - exactly a year old and 5000 miles. Dealer says the connector is badly corroded and needs at least a new engine bay wiring loom - and I am now waiting to hear how long that might take to acquire and fit!

 

[kingmid]

Sorry to hear that Jezza3553, hope they get the repairs done quickly.

It’ll be interesting to see if anything comes of the reports to the DVSA.

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