Spain to impose hard border on Gibraltar after Brexit talks stall

[Bramidan]

My point is that we as a nation do not repect the wishes of populations in the past when we took over territory you could argue that in the recent past we haven't done either.
I think the best way forwards if agreement is not reached before the new Gib/Spain border is established would be a referendum of the residents do they want Spanish border guards or a hard border with Spain. It is a problem of our own making when we had the referendum here and decided to leave.

The gift which keeps on giving.

 

[sciac2001]

My point is that we as a nation do not repect the wishes of populations in the past when we took over territory you could argue that in the recent past we haven't done either.
I think the best way forwards if agreement is not reached before the new Gib/Spain border is established would be a referendum of the residents do they want Spanish border guards or a hard border with Spain. It is a problem of our own making when we had the referendum here and decided to leave.

Agree.
A referendum for the locals.
Hopefully there will be a deal, although obviously not at any cost.
I love the Spanish border towns and have quite a few friends there.

You may have heard about the Spanish football team’s anti Gibraltar chants at their Cup celebrations. This has caused immense furore here and in Spain with many Gib locals now demanding a no-deal as Spanish nationals take up the chant against us. Not a good background to constructive negotiation.

Hopefully common sense will prevail for both sides.

 

[Boldly]

Hopefully common sense will prevail for both sides.

Unlikely if politicians are involved.

 

[Gaston aires]

Gibraltar is not yours to give nor Spain’s to take.

Ever heard of democracy or self-determination or are you advocating what in effect is ethnic cleansing?

Ethnic cleansing ? A bit OTT I’ve never wanted to ethnically cleanse anyone . I’m just saying I the Spanish want Gib they could offer to give up their enclaves.
We obviously see things differently.

 

[Gaston aires]

And whilst we are in such a giving mood, let's give the Falklands back to Argentina - would save us £60M a year

Agree with you on this one. Having said that, they can’t just do a Galtieri and invade. By negotiations only.
Phil

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[sciac2001]

Agree with you on this one. Having said that, they can’t just do a Galtieri and invade. By negotiations only.
Phil

Would that include the locals?

 

[The Wino]

Would that include the locals?

There's a question. If there was a British overseas territory that costs many millions a year to retain does the vote of the residents mean it ought to stay a British territory even if that would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds per person? Should the residents only have a deciding vote if they foot the bills

 

[sciac2001]

There's a question. If there was a British overseas territory that costs many millions a year to retain does the vote of the residents mean it ought to stay a British territory even if that would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds per person? Should the residents only have a deciding vote if they foot the bills

In Gibraltar's (and my family's) case, Britain enticed people mainly from poor Mediterranean countries to provide the civilian support to the serving military shortly after taking the territory.
The inevitable continuous war footing that Gibraltar was under following the takeover did not encourage British civilian tradespeople to move to the territory and Britain offered generous concessions to tradesmen from Genoa (and other parts of what is now Italy), Malta, Portugal to fill the requirements.


Today's Gibraltarians are descendants of this immigration.
The British government's obligation to our status and identity is therefore set in stone.

I would add that Gibraltar is self sufficient financially and does not receive financial support from the UK.

 

[Joethejoiner]

I'm not sure you can 'give back' something which wasn't really theirs in the first place.......and again the choice is really that of the current established and stable inhabitants.......waffling on about what was what 2 or 3 hundred years ago is just sentimental nonsense and if we go down that road we best look forward to the hordes that will be evicted from the US, Canada and the antipodes amongst other places......

Confused now . US , Canada and the antipodes (including their populations)are completely independent of the UK

 

[Mleabon]

fter the battle, almost all of the inhabitants decided to leave. Spanish attempts to regain the territory in the Twelfth Siege of Gibraltar failed, and it was eventually ceded to the Kingdom of Great Britain in perpetuity by Spain in the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht as part of the settlement of the War of the Spanish Succession.

Under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 Gibraltar was ceded to Britain. This treaty stated “the town, castle and fortifications were to be held and enjoyed for ever without any exception or impediment whatsoever.” This treaty was renewed again in 1763 by the Treaty of Paris, and in 1783 by the Treaty of Versailles.

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[jongood]

So who did it belong to before we had it? Presumably it was inhabited very unlikely to be by any people related to people in the UK. I think as a country we have a pretty comprehensive history of grabbing land irrespective of the democratic wishes of people living there but when it comes to any of our overseas territories it seems the wish of people living there is a major factor!

The usual Liberal message seeking to impose their idealistic assumptions without consideration of either their practicality or the wishes of the electorate.

Imho Gibralter is a very succesful enterprise that adds considerable value to the inhabitants of its surrounding area. Withouts its unique status throughout history would La Linea etc even exist or would it be covered with polytunnels?

I would agree that not all aspects of our colonial past were that good but we did manage to take places like Gibraltar and develop them to be better than they would otherwise have been. Hong Kong was another good example and so actually is India which before our forefathers managed to instill order was a mess of constantly warring states that would probably not have become as successful as it has become today.

India got the point where they were able to take their own reign and got independance. The same has been true of many other former colonies but it has usually been for the residents to decide. Gibraltar residents seem very clear that they don't want to become part of Spain and as they're self sufficient then why should they be forced to? For us to suck up to the EU?

 

[Rob Hammond]

I think it's for the people of Gibraltar to decide their future and if that means being part of the UK so be it .

 

[Rapido925M]

AND if that means having a hard border with health certificates on all plant and animal products, 90 days in Schengen etc, then so be it?

 

[Boldly]

AND if that means having a hard border with health certificates on all plant and animal products, 90 days in Schengen etc, then so be it?

If the UK wants to control it's borders and so does the EU then there is no other way. Controversially I also think this has to apply in Ireland or neither side will ever have full control of who comes in or out.

 

[jongood]

AND if that means having a hard border with health certificates on all plant and animal products, 90 days in Schengen etc, then so be it?

Yet another pedantic solution. Imho its time everyone got over Br*xit and started dealing practically with what we have. The current attitudes and prejudices aren't helping anyone and the only realistic outlet for the frustration suffered by the general population is a succession of protest votes.

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[The Wino]

Yet another pedantic solution. Imho its time everyone got over Br*xit and started dealing practically with what we have. The current attitudes and prejudices aren't helping anyone and the only realistic outlet for the frustration suffered by the general population is a succession of protest votes.

What exactly is the frustration that you suffer and what would the protest vote be about exactly?

 

[dunnah01]

Can we put this thread in the U Shaped lounge and bring the Olympics 2024 thread into the visible spectrum

 

[Mleabon]

Yet another pedantic solution. Imho its time everyone got over Br*xit and started dealing practically with what we have. The current attitudes and prejudices aren't helping anyone and the only realistic outlet for the frustration suffered by the general population is a succession of protest votes.

Having and enforcing the UK border will never be pedantic.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

So who did it belong to before we had it? Presumably it was inhabited very unlikely to be by any people related to people in the UK. I think as a country we have a pretty comprehensive history of grabbing land irrespective of the democratic wishes of people living there but when it comes to any of our overseas territories it seems the wish of people living there is a major factor!

Still ongoing, Diego Garcia?? Just been ruled by a court that the Islanders still have no right to return to their ancestral homeland islands that we turfed them off to make a missile/military base on along with the Americans!!!
Mike.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Can we put this thread in the U Shaped lounge and bring the Olympics 2024 thread into the visible spectrum

Yes, and no, as that will quickly descend into an anti Franco discussion

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[Peavy]

the Spanish football team’s anti Gibraltar chants at their Cup celebrations

I must say, that was embarrassing, out of place, stupid and completely unnecessary.
I hope they are given an exemplary punishment.

 

[jongood]

What exactly is the frustration that you suffer and what would the protest vote be about exactly?

Italy has elected a right wing anti immigration party for a second term, hollandvhas elected a populist that none of ghe other parties wanted to join in coalition, the French centre havd had to join thde hard left to keep out FN.................

So now its your turn:- Should we force Gibraltar into the EU against the wishes of its electorate?

 

[The Wino]

Italy has elected a right wing anti immigration party for a second term, hollandvhas elected a populist that none of ghe other parties wanted to join in coalition, the French centre havd had to join thde hard left to keep out FN.................

So now its your turn:- Should we force Gibraltar into the EU against the wishes of its electorate?

I've already answered that one if we can't agree terms the people living there should decide between a hard border or Spanish security and police at the Gibraltar border. By the way the people in Gibraltar did vote 95% remain should we offer them the EU as an option.

 

[Joethejoiner]

Italy has elected a right wing anti immigration party for a second term, hollandvhas elected a populist that none of ghe other parties wanted to join in coalition, the French centre havd had to join thde hard left to keep out FN.................

So now its your turn:- Should we force Gibraltar into the EU against the wishes of its electorate?

Well we did force them out of the EU against their wishes

 

[sciac2001]

I've already answered that one if we can't agree terms the people living there should decide between a hard border or Spanish security and police at the Gibraltar border. By the way the people in Gibraltar did vote 95% remain should we offer them the EU as an option.

As i said previously the deal is still under negotiation and Spain may retreat from the two main issues holding it up: Spanish boots on Gibraltar territory (and revert to the original framework agreement of Frontex uniforms) and control of the airport.

Of course the small matter of the local Spanish economy may even start resonating in Madrid.

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[Boldly]

Not been there and don't know. But what happens at the Andorra border?

 

[sciac2001]

Not been there and don't know. But what happens at the Andorra border?

No such fuss there as Spain isnt claiming Andorra.

It is simply aggressive anti-Gibraltar. Has been since Franco’s days.

There are a few cross border locations where there have been agreements such as Norway, Switzerland, but because Spain is using the EU for a land grab it has stalled.

 

[The Wino]

As i said previously the deal is still under negotiation and Spain may retreat from the two main issues holding it up: Spanish boots on Gibraltar territory (and revert to the original framework agreement of Frontex uniforms) and control of the airport.

Of course the small matter of the local Spanish economy may even start resonating in Madrid.

That sounds very much like people saying they would never clamp down on the expats on the Costa living with UK registered cars and they wouldn't impose the 90in 180 rule etc etc. I think we generally overestimate our value to other countries and underestimate their value to us.

 

[sciac2001]

That sounds very much like people saying they would never clamp down on the expats on the Costa living with UK registered cars and they wouldn't impose the 90in 180 rule etc etc. I think we generally overestimate our value to other countries and underestimate their value to us.

We can live with the 90/180 day ruling.
We’re already in the winter sun zone.

 

[TDub49]

And in the meantime, the 35,000 or so Gibraltarians manage to smoke their way through 117 million cartons of cigarettes a year . . . . . .

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