Spain to impose hard border on Gibraltar after Brexit talks stall (1 Viewer)

[Minxy]

Makes interesting reading ...

Spain to impose hard border on Gibraltar after Brexit talks stall

Spain will soon impose a hard border on Gibraltar because there is no Brexit deal for the Rock, authorities on the British territory have warned.

uk.news.yahoo.com

 

[nicholsong]

Does that mean that Spanish workers working in Gibraltar will need work permits and vice versa?

 

[dash300]

Sir Flip flop will come to the rescue of the Spanish. Watch this space!

 

[Boldly]

Why did we vote to have control of borders but react negatively when others do the same?

 

[Gaston aires]

The Spanish have always been shirty over Gibraltar. Wouldn’t we if it were Portland Dorset ?
Give it back to them if they give back Cueta to Africa. Seems fair to me.
Phil mezapatas

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[ianp]

The Spanish have always been shirty over Gibraltar. Wouldn’t we if it were Portland Dorset ?
Give it back to them if they give back Cueta to Africa. Seems fair to me.
Phil mezapatas

Its not really ours to give or take.......thats a decision for the people that live there.......we just stand by their decision...!
For parity Spain would need to consider not only Ceuta but Malilla, the Canaries and several of the northern regions.........
Unless your advocating suppression then really Spain doesn't have a great deal to say here........
On a serious note though bearing in mind its within the last generation (the eighties) that a military coup was staged in the Parliament of Spain and that we have dispatched a destroyer (or two?) to 'stand off' Valencia in the meanwhile..... then tensions with either the left or right is not beyond question. Where then will we stand when some tinpot Spanish 'Galtieri' who in 10 or 20 years thinks he has the backing of a yet to be formed EU 'defence' force, fancies his chances of proving to his waning supporters how good he is........

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

The Spanish have always been shirty over Gibraltar. Wouldn’t we if it were Portland Dorset ?
Give it back to them if they give back Cueta to Africa. Seems fair to me.
Phil mezapatas

Yes, a lot less to say about their "very necessary" exclaves in Morocco.
Spanish North Africa, five small areas, in special relationship with the Spanish government, on and off the Mediterranean coast of Morocco. They are Alhucemas, Ceuta, the Chafarinas Islands, Melilla, and Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera, with a combined area of about 12 square miles (31 square km).
Mike.

 

[sciac2001]

The Spanish have always been shirty over Gibraltar. Wouldn’t we if it were Portland Dorset ?
Give it back to them if they give back Cueta to Africa. Seems fair to me.
Phil mezapatas

Gibraltar is not yours to give nor Spain’s to take.

Ever heard of democracy or self-determination or are you advocating what in effect is ethnic cleansing?

 

[The Wino]

Sounds to me like the Spanish have just got fed up of waiting to get a deal finalised on Gibraltar's position on border controls. Same with the import checks on goods entering the UK and trade with NI it's all been not quite as straightforward as people thought

 

[sciac2001]

Sounds to me like the Spanish have just got fed up of waiting to get a deal finalised on Gibraltar's position on border controls. Same with the import checks on goods entering the UK and trade with NI it's all been not quite as straightforward as people thought

Nonsense!

The initial framework for a deal was agreed in 2020.
Since then Spain has added conditions relating to sovereignty which will never be accepted by us Gibraltarians.

The hard border reference is because the electronic entry system is being introduced Schengen-wide and Spain needs to be ready if there is no deal. (If there is a deal then the system will not be used.)

To date since Brexit, Gibraltarian ID card holders have been allowed into Spain stamp-free. The electronic system may not cope with this manual system of allowance hence the hard border narrative.

Gibraltar has systems in place to counter a no-deal. It will hurt us but it will kill Spain’s local economy.

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[The Wino]

Nonsense!

The initial framework for a deal was agreed in 2020.
Since then Spain has added conditions relating to sovereignty which will never be accepted by us Gibraltarians.

The hard border reference is because the electronic entry system is being introduced Schengen-wide and Spain needs to be ready if there is no deal. (If there is a deal then the system will not be used.)

To date since Brexit, Gibraltarian ID card holders have been allowed into Spain stamp-free. The electronic system may not cope with this manual system of allowance hence the hard border narrative.

Gibraltar has systems in place to counter a no-deal. It will hurt us but it will kill Spain’s local economy.

What are the sovereignty issues?

 

[The Wino]

I do feel sorry for the gibraltarians after all they did vote 95.9% remain

 

[David and Sally]

The Spanish have always been shirty over Gibraltar. Wouldn’t we if it were Portland Dorset ?
Give it back to them if they give back Cueta to Africa. Seems fair to me.
Phil mezapatas

You could argue the same over the Falklands.

 

[sciac2001]

What are the sovereignty issues?

Spanish uniformed police to man the entry points (port and airport) in Gib itself when it was agreed that Frontex would man these points.

Control of the airport.

Both are red lines for the locals.

 

[The Wino]

Spanish uniformed police to man the entry points (port and airport) in Gib itself when it was agreed that Frontex would man these points.

Control of the airport.

Both are red lines for the locals.

I don't see Spanish police at the border if it's effectively the border of Spain as unreasonable. On control of the airport it depends in what sense.

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[sciac2001]

I don't see Spanish police at the border if it's effectively the border of Spain as unreasonable. On control of the airport it depends in what sense.

It won’t be at the Spanish border, it will be inside Gib territory.
Again, contrary to the initial framework that it would be Frontex manning the entry points in Gib agreed by BOTH sides prior to any formal negotiations.

 

[sciac2001]

With regards the airport it would in effect become a Spanish airport and not a British one.
(Of course it would also mean that it will no longer be an RAF base.)

Our message is clear: we will not have Spanish authorities in charge of anything in any shape or form within our territory.

 

[bigtree]

The Spanish have always been shirty over Gibraltar. Wouldn’t we if it were Portland Dorset ?
Give it back to them if they give back Cueta to Africa. Seems fair to me.
Phil mezapatas

Don’t forget Melilla too.

 

[ianp]

It won’t be at the Spanish border, it will be inside Gib territory.
Again, contrary to the initial framework that it would be Frontex manning the entry points in Gib agreed by BOTH sides prior to any formal negotiations.

I'm of a mind that it's academic really as to whether it's Frontex or Policia that man the boarders, either will in time make the place a 'foreign' place to the British and then we would need to ask the question is it still worth the biscuit.
If the Brits pull the plug on the place then it will 'fall' like a ton of bricks as it levels down to match the campo. It flies high currently because of its association with the UK and its reliance on UK law and business culture. If that is removed and it takes on that of Spain then it's bye bye to all the finance and Insurance business there as well as those that depend on reduced taxation........ it wouldn't even survive as a tourist destination for long.....
Beyond that taking greater integration into the 'EU' system will achieve much the same as above as de facto the Brit systems will be worked out as the EU and its associated countries (of which Gib would be one) become more economically integrated with regard to trading laws and taxation.
Gib is or very soon will have to decide which way it wants to go as it wont be able to play mummy off against daddy for many more decades...... and again to my mind if they know which side the bread is buttered and they want to remain as a kind of moderen day 1960's HongKong in the Med then the answer is simple and its not Frontex or Policia guards......

 

[sciac2001]

Gibraltarians have decided almost unanimously through 2 referendums what we want and it is not Spanish flavoured.
We went through a modern day siege during the Franco years and survived with much much less than what we have today.

Without Gibraltar the Campo area of Spain will be hit very hard. Gibraltar provides c25% if their GDP and we employ 12-15000 of their residents.

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[ianp]

Gibraltarians have decided almost unanimously through 2 referendums what we want and it is not Spanish flavoured.
We went through a modern day siege during the Franco years and survived with much much less than what we have today.

Without Gibraltar the Campo area of Spain will be hit very hard. Gibraltar provides c25% if their GDP and we employ 12-15000 of their residents.

In this issue your tag line is very very apt!

 

[sciac2001]

In this issue your tag line is very very apt!

And Spain would be well advised to heed it.

 

[TDub49]

The Spanish have always been shirty over Gibraltar. Wouldn’t we if it were Portland Dorset ?
Give it back to them if they give back Cueta to Africa. Seems fair to me.
Phil mezapatas

And whilst we are in such a giving mood, let's give the Falklands back to Argentina - would save us £60M a year

 

[ianp]

And whilst we are in such a giving mood, let's give the Falklands back to Argentina - would save us £60M a year

I'm not sure you can 'give back' something which wasn't really theirs in the first place.......and again the choice is really that of the current established and stable inhabitants.......waffling on about what was what 2 or 3 hundred years ago is just sentimental nonsense and if we go down that road we best look forward to the hordes that will be evicted from the US, Canada and the antipodes amongst other places......

 

[Northernraider]

Sounds to me like the Spanish have just got fed up of waiting to get a deal finalised on Gibraltar's position on border controls. Same with the import checks on goods entering the UK and trade with NI it's all been not quite as straightforward as people thought

Aka a feckn shambles

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[The Wino]

I'm not sure you can 'give back' something which wasn't really theirs in the first place.......

So who did it belong to before we had it? Presumably it was inhabited very unlikely to be by any people related to people in the UK. I think as a country we have a pretty comprehensive history of grabbing land irrespective of the democratic wishes of people living there but when it comes to any of our overseas territories it seems the wish of people living there is a major factor!

 

[The Wino]

Aka a feckn shambles

I'm sure it was all carefully thought out and planned

 

[ianp]

So who did it belong to before we had it? Presumably it was inhabited very unlikely to be by any people related to people in the UK. I think as a country we have a pretty comprehensive history of grabbing land irrespective of the democratic wishes of people living there but when it comes to any of our overseas territories it seems the wish of people living there is a major factor!

I think you missed the add on.......and no I'm not sure it was 'inhabited' other than by passing whalers etc......

 

[sciac2001]

So who did it belong to before we had it? Presumably it was inhabited very unlikely to be by any people related to people in the UK. I think as a country we have a pretty comprehensive history of grabbing land irrespective of the democratic wishes of people living there but when it comes to any of our overseas territories it seems the wish of people living there is a major factor!

Aside from your ludicrous notion that populations who have resided in their current territories for centuries should not have the right of self-determination (UN Charter article 2, I believe, after the right to life article), so in Gibraltar’s case :

1) Who would “you” give it back to?
The Spaniards? The Moors? The Romans?
or the Phoenicians who first settled the
place?
2) If you did “give” it back what would you do with, say, the likes of me whose family have been in Gib since 1759 and am of Genoese ancestry?

Before you say Italy (a totally foreign country to us), would you also say go back to Africa to a West Indian?
Perhaps as relatively affluent white folk we are to be considered fair game?

Cavalier statements condemning whole populations to aggressive takeovers from points distant from the areas being discussed are truly despicable.

 

[The Wino]

Aside from your ludicrous notion that populations who have resided in their current territories for centuries should not have the right of self-determination (UN Charter article 2, I believe, after the right to life article), so in Gibraltar’s case :

1) Who would “you” give it back to?
The Spaniards? The Moors? The Romans?
or the Phoenicians who first settled the
place?
2) If you did “give” it back what would you do with, say, the likes of me whose family have been in Gib since 1759 and am of Genoese ancestry?

Before you say Italy (a totally foreign country to us), would you also say go back to Africa to a West Indian?
Perhaps as relatively affluent white folk we are to be considered fair game?

Cavalier statements condemning whole populations to aggressive takeovers from points distant from the areas being discussed are truly despicable.

My point is that we as a nation do not repect the wishes of populations in the past when we took over territory you could argue that in the recent past we haven't done either.
I think the best way forwards if agreement is not reached before the new Gib/Spain border is established would be a referendum of the residents do they want Spanish border guards or a hard border with Spain. It is a problem of our own making when we had the referendum here and decided to leave.

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