Reverse polarity in Europe?

[Pausim]

And if that appliance had a continental plug on it, how could that be safer than your 13A plug?

Ian

You would not be putting false trust in a fuse that might not be providing protection. I happily use my 13A plugs but I know that the fuse will not make an appliance safe if the polarity is reversed or if I am using my inverter.

In practice the plug fuse is probably not the weakest link. However a single pole switch on the socket is different matter, there is a documented case of a canal boater electrocuting himself because he switched an appliance of at the socket switch and then got a shock from the appliance. Luckily he survived to tell the tale but if there had not been a switch he would have unplugged instead of putting his trust in a switch that had only turned off half the supply from his inverter.

 

[autorouter]

But, in a given van, it CANNOT, be less safe than a continental plug.

Yes it can. With an unfused plug, if there is an overcurrent fault, the two-pole 16A MCB will trip, isolating both wires.

With a fused plug, if there is an overcurrent fault, the fuse will blow. The two-pole 16A MCB will not trip. So only the fused wire is isolated. If that fused wire is connected to the neutral, then the other will be live, as will everything else as far as the blown fuse. So it is less safe than the unfused continental plug.

 

[bigtwin]

Yes it can. With an unfused plug, if there is an overcurrent fault, the two-pole 16A MCB will trip, isolating both wires.

With a fused plug, if there is an overcurrent fault, the fuse will blow. The two-pole 16A MCB will not trip. So only the fused wire is isolated. If that fused wire is connected to the neutral, then the other will be live, as will everything else as far as the blown fuse. So it is less safe than the unfused continental plug.

Understood. Thanks for the explanation.

Ian

 

[autorouter]

Yes it can. With an unfused plug, if there is an overcurrent fault, the two-pole 16A MCB will trip, isolating both wires.

With a fused plug, if there is an overcurrent fault, the fuse will blow. The two-pole 16A MCB will not trip. So only the fused wire is isolated. If that fused wire is connected to the neutral, then the other will be live, as will everything else as far as the blown fuse. So it is less safe than the unfused continental plug.

However if the two-pole MCB is 10A, and the fuse is 13A - a very common arrangement - then the 10A MCB will almost certainly trip before the 13A fuse blows, so it will be safe.

 

[bigtwin]

However if the two-pole MCB is 10A, and the fuse is 13A - a very common arrangement - then the 10A MCB will almost certainly trip before the 13A fuse blows, so it will be safe.

Agreed. The relative protection values will influence the situation.

Ian

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[BDM]

...label in my Multiplus ll

 

[autorouter]

...label in my Multiplus ll

I'm sure that refers to the technically correct meaning of 'reverse polarity', ie reversal of the DC positive and negative feed wires from the battery that the inverter/charge is connected to.

I have often had 'reverse polarity' (ie live/neutral reversed) mains hookup connected to my Multiplus 2 and it doesn't seem to bother it at all. Usually I plug in the EHU first, then test it, then correct it as necessary with a short live/neutral reversed cable.

 

[InvictaMoto]

I have this orange plug that I stuff in the socket after connecting ehu. So far it always shows no negative.

 

[PeterCarole29]

Here is a question if polarity in France is 50/50

Has anyone actually been adversely affected by this, I suspect probably not but would be good to hear if anyone has.

Or is this just a storm in a MoHo tea cup

Not an answer to your question but i have fried an inverter/ charger in france i dont know if it was reverse polarity or a power surge but have since fitted a surge protecter

 

[Old Gibber]

They have a UK van with UK sockets, which as Autorouter explained above, are switched only on the UK live.

Reverse polarity means, as I understood it, the neutral becomes switched, and the UK sockets would have permanent live.

That's normal practice for a Continental motorhome, as I understand it, but not for a UK van.

I've never come across a modern caravan or motorhome that had switched sockets, either UK made or continental.

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[PeterCarole29]

I'm sure that refers to the technically correct meaning of 'reverse polarity', ie reversal of the DC positive and negative feed wires from the battery that the inverter/charge is connected to.

I have often had 'reverse polarity' (ie live/neutral reversed) mains hookup connected to my Multiplus 2 and it doesn't seem to bother it at all. Usually I plug in the EHU first, then test it, then correct it as necessary with a short live/neutral reversed cable.

I too have seen this label and was told the same that it refers to DC but its not clear on the appliance

 

[Old Gibber]

Not an answer to your question but i have fried an inverter/ charger in france i dont know if it was reverse polarity or a power surge but have since fitted a surge protecter

Reverse polarity will have no effect on a modern charger. After all the first thing that happens in a switch mode power supply is for the mains to be rectified and then switched at a high frequency back to AC.

 

[PeterCarole29]

Can you clarify is this double pole that’s being referred to

 

[Old Gibber]

It is certainly not unheard of to find reverse polarity at some sockets in domestic situations. People change the sockets or remove them to decorate and reverse the connections. There is no standardisation in the connections at the back of a mains socket.

If you've never done it, check your home sockets with a sockets tester.

While on the subject why oh why to people call them plug sockets rather than mains sockets? You have either plugs or sockets. You put the plug into the socket. You get USB plugs and USB sockets are they plug sockets too? Sorry rant over.

 

[PeterCarole29]

It is certainly not unheard of to find reverse polarity at some sockets in domestic situations. People change the sockets or remove them to decorate and reverse the connections. There is no standardisation in the connections at the back of a mains socket.

If you've never done it, check your home sockets with a sockets tester.

While on the subject why oh why to people call them plug sockets rather than mains sockets? You have either plugs or sockets. You put the plug into the socket. You get USB plugs and USB sockets are they plug sockets too? Sorry rant over.

Its like divers call the things on there feet Fins and laymen call them flippers

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[tonyidle]

I too have seen this label and was told the same that it refers to DC but its not clear on the appliance

Perfectly clear - only on forums such as this is L/N reversal referred to as reverse polarity.

 

[tonyidle]

"There is no standardisation in the connections at the back of a mains socket."
There certainly is and each terminal is marked.

 

[Old Gibber]

"There is no standardisation in the connections at the back of a mains socket."
There certainly is and each terminal is marked.

They may be marked, but the placing relative to each other can be different.

 

[autorouter]

There certainly is and each terminal is marked.

Yes, clearly marked, in black text on a black background. How could anyone possibly miss that?

 

[CAB96]

I've never come across a modern caravan or motorhome that had switched sockets, either UK made or continental.

Mine does

But then it's a campervan, so probably doesn't count

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[autorouter]

Can you clarify is this double pole that’s being referred to

I think it's this one:

Axiom Garage Consumer Unit Type A 2 Way

• 4 total ways• 1x63A Type A RCD• Comes with 1x 6A MCB, 1x32A MCB• Complies with BSEN61439-3• Dimensions 127 x 185 x 110mm• 20mm knockouts• 1 year warranty• Full metal steel casement construction for safety and to impede fire entry • Generous internal cabling space for time saving wiringThis...

www.toolstation.com

It's a double-pole RCD, but two single-pole MCBs - a 32A and a 6A. UK house mains are nearly always single pole.
Toolstation do a 'Caravan Consumer Unit', which has a double-pole RCD and two 'SPN' MCBs. SPN is Single Pole & Neutral, so if the live trips then it also trips the neutral. That's a lot better than a single pole MCB, and obviously some people find them OK, but still not 100% in my opinion.

Caravan Consumer Unit IP65

25A RCD protected caravan and mobile home consumer unit.• Complete with 16A and 6A Double Pole MCBs to comply with BS standards• Lockable• Power indication neon• Comes complete with optional surface mounting brackets for complete IP65 protection

www.toolstation.com

I'd prefer to get proper double pole MCBs, like these:

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/categories/double-pole-mcb-s-10ka-dp-b-curve-mcb-s

 

[BDM]

I have often had 'reverse polarity' (ie live/neutral reversed) mains hookup connected to my Multiplus 2 and it doesn't seem to bother it at all. Usually I plug in the EHU first, then test it, then correct it as necessary with a short live/neutral reversed cable.

Exactly my way of doing it, but thanks for the clarification on the DC side. I see no reason not to test rev. pol. on the Multi AC, I rely on it and would like it to work without fault

 

[autorouter]

I have this orange plug that I stuff in the socket after connecting ehu. So far it always shows no negative.

What exactly does the fault label say? 'No N', maybe, meaning missing Neutral?

Does this tester work correctly when you put it in a normal house socket that you know is OK?

 

[InvictaMoto]

What exactly does the fault label say? 'No N', maybe, meaning missing Neutral?

Does this tester work correctly when you put it in a normal house socket that you know is OK?

This is is about 3 minutes ago in my house. The three lights mean it's working as expected. I have never seen it do anything else. I take it with me everywhere.

 

[autorouter]

This is is about 3 minutes ago in my house. The three lights mean it's working as expected. I have never seen it do anything else. I take it with me everywhere.

I thought you meant it showed a fault, not that there were no faults. I also have one of those, use it frequently. If you also have one of these, you can use the socket tester on the hookup post and the hookup cable:

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[growly_bear]

This is is about 3 minutes ago in my house. The three lights mean it's working as expected. I have never seen it do anything else. I take it with me everywhere.

View attachment 932078

I used one of these in a new to me house. It was built 20 years ago. No earth! The builders had tightened the connection to the green/yellow sheath! I regularly do a quick check now...

 

[GrahamPye]

As you have a continental make of motorhome ( a hymer in your picture) I would have thought it would have double pole circuit breakers and reverse polarity wouldn't be an issue. I have never ever seen any foreign motorhome owners bother with testing for reverse polarity and don't think it's a worry to them it's perfectly normal

My Pilote does have a double pole RCD, but the two MCBs downstream are definitely only single pole (at the moment...)

I suspect that although modern European built vans might have double pole MCBs, that wasn't true in the past. I'm guessing that it would (since the latest IEE Regs) now be illegal to import a MH with only single pole MCBs.

 

[InvictaMoto]

I thought you meant it showed a fault, not that there were no faults. I also have one of those, use it frequently. If you also have one of these, you can use the socket tester on the hookup post and the hookup cable:
View attachment 932152

Don't have one of those.

 

[Pedro Pallent]

How often have you guys experienced reverse polarity on the continent? What’s the options for solving this issue is it as simple as making up a new lead with reverse polarity and a test lead with a martindale

I carry two euro-leads, one wired as I would expect to use where live and neutral are as normal. I also carry one clearly marked “Reverse Polarity”, for use on sites where the panel tells me the polarity is wrong. Both leads are approximately 2 foot long with a euro plug on one end and a 16A blue socket on the other .

 

[Thommo]

How often have you guys experienced reverse polarity on the continent? What’s the options for solving this issue is it as simple as making up a new lead with reverse polarity and a test lead with a martindale

Hi Simon
We are currently 4 months travelling Europe including all the Balkan states and have never had an issue. Just required a 16A CEE socket to European 2 pin adapter. Especially in the balkans.
R Thommo

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