Registering your TOAD as a trailer.

[Langtoftlad]

Dog meet bone

 

[eddie]

A man on a mission to stop others using what he doesn’t want to use. Thousands use a frames in the US and here with no problem, why meddle.

Because there are so many accidents, injuries and deaths Caused by A Frames.

Only last year the OP posted one, the same one, several times when asked for examples, one that had been installed for, from memory ten or more years, one that ‘could’ of hurt someone as it broke away from the towing vehicle.

I have a little 4 X 4 that I bought new to tow occasionally, I chose it as it’s a popular choice in the States, due to its popularity in the States the manufacture has a section about what to do when towing on an A frame in the owners manual.

My insurers are happy it’s towed on an A Frame with no additional premium, so one assumes my insurers see no additional risk.

The Government website, suggests taking it abroad may be an issue, but they simply see it as a trailer to all intents and purposes.

The Police have never shown any interest in its legality, only its ingenuity, and trust me, when you have a blow out in the front wheel of a 10 ton 33’ RV with an A Framed car on the back, on the A303 on a Bank Holiday Friday afternoon ( We made it onto Sally Traffic) you end up with lots of Policemen helping, many of which asking if the could ‘peek inside’ all of whom gratefully took a cup of tea or coffee handed out of the window whilst a commercial tyre company sorted out the problem, and the general consensus about the car was ’great idea‘

So I’m totally happy about my occasional A Frame use.

I am not a moron (well not always according to my wife) I understand that things need inspection and repair from time to time. All things do, we don’t ban cars just because they need maintenance, inspection and repair, especially as vehicles get older.

Don Quixote used to ride round Spain, and would fight Demons, nasty dangerous Demons, it was his calling, his destiny, only Don Quixote could see the Demons that he fought, so the gentry and peasants alike, sadly used to laugh at him as he was attacking windmills, simple, benign, windmills.

Sancho, his Squire would try to shield his master from the reality of his delusional attacks on Windmills by commenting on the ‘possibility’ that Demons may exist, whilst continually trying to convince the Locals that his Master wasn’t delusional

Some see windmills, some see Demons!

 

[bobnick]

I was toying between a trailer and a toad so i am fitting a scooter rack...................................one of the others or both may still follow.

 

[XxAnthxX]

........one of the others or both may still follow.

Well if it doesn’t follow….it may have broken loose due to insufficient or substandard mounting and lack of inspection

 

[TheTwoOfUs]

Wonder where that leaves me. I tow my trike with its front wheel in a non swivel bracket on the back of my moho. The back wheels are trailed on the road. The swivel point horizontally is the trike headstock bearing and in the vertical plane is the front wheel axle

AFAIK it could be classed as illegal on two counts,
1. As brakes are fitted to the rear wheels , these should be operational when the towing vehicle is braking.
2. Any dolly that lifts the front wheel(s) off the road should only be used for recovery purposes and as such restricted to 40mph.
Of course I could be talking total ******s (I'll let you fill in the blanks).

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[TonyEmm]

A man on a mission to stop others using what he doesn’t want to use. Thousands use a frames in the US and here with no problem, why meddle.

You miss the point, it isn‘t the a-frame (usually) that’s the issue, it’s what they fastened to. 1,000’s may use them without issue but, they are not fool-proof!
The photo is IIRC, an American made Blue Ox a-frame, one of the most respected anywhere. It was towing a Suzuki in Australia….

 

[TonyEmm]

Because there are so many accidents, injuries and deaths Caused by A Frames.

Only last year the OP posted one, the same one, several times when asked for examples, one that had been installed for, from memory ten or more years, one that ‘could’ of hurt someone as it broke away from the towing vehicle.

I have a little 4 X 4 that I bought new to tow occasionally, I chose it as it’s a popular choice in the States, due to its popularity in the States the manufacture has a section about what to do when towing on an A frame in the owners manual.

My insurers are happy it’s towed on an A Frame with no additional premium, so one assumes my insurers see no additional risk.

The Government website, suggests taking it abroad may be an issue, but they simply see it as a trailer to all intents and purposes.

The Police have never shown any interest in its legality, only its ingenuity, and trust me, when you have a blow out in the front wheel of a 10 ton 33’ RV with an A Framed car on the back, on the A303 on a Bank Holiday Friday afternoon ( We made it onto Sally Traffic) you end up with lots of Policemen helping, many of which asking if the could ‘peek inside’ all of whom gratefully took a cup of tea or coffee handed out of the window whilst a commercial tyre company sorted out the problem, and the general consensus about the car was ’great idea‘

So I’m totally happy about my occasional A Frame use.

I am not a moron (well not always according to my wife) I understand that things need inspection and repair from time to time. All things do, we don’t ban cars just because they need maintenance, inspection and repair, especially as vehicles get older.

Don Quixote used to ride round Spain, and would fight Demons, nasty dangerous Demons, it was his calling, his destiny, only Don Quixote could see the Demons that he fought, so the gentry and peasants alike, sadly used to laugh at him as he was attacking windmills, simple, benign, windmills.

Sancho, his Squire would try to shield his master from the reality of his delusional attacks on Windmills by commenting on the ‘possibility’ that Demons may exist, whilst continually trying to convince the Locals that his Master wasn’t delusional

Some see windmills, some see Demons!

And the point of your diatribe is?
The post I made was about an update in legislation, specifically The Trailer Registration Regulations 2021.
Nothing more! It was for public information.

 

[Larrynwin]

.

 

[Realist]

God here we go again, man on a mission part 1001 I name no names.

Can Jim close this before it gets out of hand again like all A frame threads.

Haaaaaaa does my head in.

 

[busby]

I do believe in Germany a toad is illegal because it has an engine so can’t be a trailer. In Spain any towed vehicle has to have all four wheels off the road.
Having seen quite a few toads in Spain this past few years it seems that it’s not enforced.

Or they have been lucky,,BUSBY.

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[TonyEmm]

God here we go again, man on a mission part 1001 I name no names.

Can Jim close this before it gets out of hand again like all A frame threads.

Haaaaaaa does my head in.

Nothing to do with being on a mission! I’ve quoted an update in legislation, end of!

if other folk want to make more of an issue out it, then it’s they that have the problem! Of course, it may be you don’t wish to know about updated legislation, in which cas, just scroll on by. Simples really!

 

[TonyEmm]

Or they have been lucky,,BUSBY.

Enforcement in Spain is definitely sporadic. I guess it depends how sociable el policía is feeling. One thing for sure trying to con him isn’t going to aid anyone’s cause! This amendment to legislation closes that loophole at least.

 

[eddie]

And the point of your diatribe is?
The post I made was about an update in legislation, specifically The Trailer Registration Regulations 2021.
Nothing more! It was for public information.

The point of my 'diatribe' is saying what the Government, my insurers and the police think about my A framed car, and what the car manufacturers say to do when towing it on an A Frame

It's called a forum, and until Jim says different everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I didn't quote your waffle, but being me, don't care if you don't like my factual post

Have a lovely weekend

 

[TonyEmm]

The point of my 'diatribe' is saying what the Government, my insurers and the police think about my A framed car, and what the car manufacturers say to do when towing it on an A Frame

It's called a forum, and until Jim says different everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I didn't quote your waffle, but being me, don't care if you don't like my factual post

Have a lovely weekend

Yes it’s a forum and yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, that works both ways! Regarding what car manufacturers say, of 15 I wrote to over a year ago, not one supported towing their cars on an a-frame! If you listened to them, there would be no a-framing in the U.K.

 

[Phill D]

Regarding what car manufacturers say, of 15 I wrote to over a year ago, not one supported towing their cars on an a-frame! If you listened to them, there would be no a-framing in the U.K.

I am not surprised at that. I would have guessed that reply was inevitable based on the fact that they would want to avoid any potential liability however tenuous, or the expense of homologation.

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[eddie]

Yes it’s a forum and yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, that works both ways! Regarding what car manufacturers say, of 15 I wrote to over a year ago, not one supported towing their cars on an a-frame! If you listened to them, there would be no a-framing in the U.K.

Your wrong

My hand book has a section on "Towing on an A Frame, as I posted earlier which is why I ordered the car, brand new, just to tow occasionally

However, my Father told me many years ago not to try to teach a pig to sing as its a waste of time and eventually even the pig gets bored

I tow occasionally with zero issues, no one has ever been prosecuted for
towing on an A Frame, so, tilt at as many windmills as you like.

I've sailed to Cowes for the Bank Holiday Weekend and am sat playing cards with our Chums, so enjoy your weekend too, and in the words of the Dragons, I'm out

 

[TonyEmm]

I am not surprised at that. I would have guessed that reply was inevitable based on the fact that they would want to avoid any potential liability however tenuous, or the expense of homologation.

Homologation really should fall in the lap of the a-frame suppliers. Trailer manufacturers have had to do it since Oct 2012!
it’s Sadly, the DfT muddy the waters here saying “the A-frame itself is neither a vehicle nor a trailer, and is therefore outside the scope of type approval.” A Towbar is neither a vehicle or a trailer either, but it still has to be tested and type-approved!

when towing equipment at the rear has to type approved, why not at the front? I’ve asked this of them more than once and still not had a logical answer.

 

[TonyEmm]

Well at least we have something in common! I’ve sailed into Cowes many times. My first yacht was kept up Fareham Reach. That could be anything from 1.5 hours to 5 hours+!
my 2nd yacht i kept at Cobb’s Quay in Hamworthy, Poole. Much longer sail, different challenges with the tides off The Needles/Keyhaven!

 

[TonyEmm]

Your wrong

My hand book has a section on "Towing on an A Frame, as I posted earlier which is why I ordered the car, brand new, just to tow occasionally

And the car you tow is?

 

[funflair]

And the car you tow is?

According to an old post "Daihatsu Terios"

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[TonyEmm]

According to an old post "Daihatsu Terios"

Sadly, Daihatsu weren’t on my list!

 

[scally]

AFAIK it could be classed as illegal on two counts,
1. As brakes are fitted to the rear wheels , these should be operational when the towing vehicle is braking.
2. Any dolly that lifts the front wheel(s) off the road should only be used for recovery purposes and as such restricted to 40mph.
Of course I could be talking total ******s (I'll let you fill in the blanks).

There is no dolly the front wheel is rigid to a frame bolted to the tow hitch bracket. It uses the headsock as swivel. So in effect it's an articulated 6 wheel on the road with no brakes on the rear set. It's under 350 kg. Nobody has ever stopped me or questioned it in 10 years of towing.

 

[TonyEmm]

There is no dolly the front wheel is rigid to a frame bolted to the tow hitch bracket. It uses the headsock as swivel. So in effect it's an articulated 6 wheel on the road with no brakes on the rear set. It's under 350 kg. Nobody has ever stopped me or questioned it in 10 years of towing.

No brakes fitted on the rear? If so, that’s a CatO1 trailer and at 350kg, perfectly legal. If brakes are fitted however, even at that weight, they have to be operational.

 

[SSILVO]

I’m no expert on the structural integrity of each vehicle that’s likely to be a-framed but it’s clear the original, unmodified crash protection beam isn’t adequate for the stresses & strains imparted by a-framing, on certain vehicles. Only appropriate testing can separate the adequate from the inadequate! One a-frame company I’m aware of do their own in house testing on their reinforced towing eyes so it is possible without resorting to heavy structural fabrications.
if a small country like New Zealand can have approvals and certification through their LVVTA scheme, it begs the question why the U.K. can’t implement something similar.

Low Volume Vehicle Technical Association Inc. | Documents

I commend your motives but the evidence of dangerous A frames is not an issue I once again refer you to the house of commons report delivered by the DOT as required by law. That detailed report covering all trailers including caravans with over 200 incidents of varying severity..with AFrames incidents being 0.
I agree that a safety check is required bi yearly but if A frames had been careering all over British roads they would of been removed years ago ..if you look at American statistics for A frames it's a similar statistic profile to the UK . Don't get me wrong this is all about risk aversion and mitigation and that risk is not prominent enough to legislate, a voluntary system could be introduced where if you don't do it ,risk and consequence falls to the driver attaching it.

 

[TonyEmm]

I commend your motives but the evidence of dangerous A frames is not an issue I once again refer you to the house of commons report delivered by the DOT as required by law. That detailed report covering all trailers including caravans with over 200 incidents of varying severity..with AFrames incidents being 0.
I agree that a safety check is required bi yearly but if A frames had been careering all over British roads they would of been removed years ago ..if you look at American statistics for A frames it's a similar statistic profile to the UK . Don't get me wrong this is all about risk aversion and mitigation and that risk is not prominent enough to legislate, a voluntary system could be introduced where if you don't do it ,risk and consequence falls to the driver attaching it.

I read something a while ago about the DfT’s report…. But, the .gov website itself admits that statistics, other than fatalities, are seriously flawed.
“It has long been known that a considerable proportion of non-fatal casualties are not known to the police, as hospital, survey and compensation claims data all indicate a higher number of casualties than are reported to the police.”

It’s not within the DVSA’s remit to decide on policy, but I’m assured it is something that is being looked at.

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[busby]

Enforcement in Spain is definitely sporadic. I guess it depends how sociable el policía is feeling. One thing for sure trying to con him isn’t going to aid anyone’s cause! This amendment to legislation closes that loophole at least.

Would think Covid has had an influence on enforcement. BUSBY.

 

[Jamesh]

Why not campaign against something like smart motorways which are really dangerous rather than banging on about A frames which are hardly dangerous in the grand scheme of things....?!

 

[dunnah01]

Still not sure why so many aren't bothered about trying to make sure towing is made a bit safer but I don't tow so hey ho

 

[Carpmart]

Yes it’s a forum and yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, that works both ways! Regarding what car manufacturers say, of 15 I wrote to over a year ago, not one supported towing their cars on an a-frame! If you listened to them, there would be no a-framing in the U.K.

Flat towing is such a niche for these manufacturers, little wonder they aren’t replying and or interested.

My earlier posts question still remain. What are the minimum vehicle modifications that you are campaigning to see applied? If you have researched this and have your own data, it would be valuable to share this with this community so we can all learn and apply this research to make ourselves ‘safer’ when towing.

 

[Pausim]

Why not campaign against something like smart motorways which are really dangerous rather than banging on about A frames which are hardly dangerous in the grand scheme of things....?!

I don’t think you can tell someone else what they should feel strongly about and campaign for. I don’t share TonyEmm ’s views about A frames but I do defend his right to free speech and personal opinions.

You want someone else to campaign about Smart Motorways but that is also open to interpretation. Some Smart Motorways have a hard shoulder so the first thing is to establish whether you mean all Smart Motorways or just the ones without a hard shoulder. The motorways without a hard shoulder are called ALR Motorways, which stands for All Lane Running. Then there is the question of what would happen if the extra lane was removed and turned into a hard shoulder. Would it cause traffic jams and force motorists back onto the even less safe non motorway routes?

Perhaps you should raise another thread to air your concerns about Smart Motorways because this one was originally about registering toads as trailers, which I found interesting because I had no idea that it had ever been possible.

ps I am about to attach my toad to the back of my motorhome to move on to my next campsite.

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