Pulling a car

[RichieRY]

Hi all,

We have not long bought our motorhome (which is still currently being built) and I have been looking into pulling a car on the back.

I intend on going away for the duration of the summer as I am teacher, so having a small car handy would be great. I don't want to pull a trailer and I am away there are some countries you can't pull a car on an A-Frame - I shall just avoid those ;-).

After visiting some car dealerships there appears to be some different opinions and they have said not to do this to a car. Ford said the KA+ is good for it and it does not clock up the miles as the car is not actually on? Smart said they do not recommend it at all as this can damage the gearbox should it go out of neutral which is not unheard of (then would need a new gear box). Fiat said the 500 would need to be pulled backwards?

Any help is appreciated.

 

[pappajohn]

Pappajohn I am afraid that you are incorrect on the option to take another Driving Test on the same day there is a mandatory three working day gap necessary between Driving Tests, also at £115 per Driving Test I would doubt that there would be no further costs involved.

I stand corrected on the time, but I still believe Rick is so confident on a first time pass there is no additional fee.
He has an almost 100% 1st time pass rate.

 

[Rosemary1]

I think it depends on what you like to do? For instance we go out birdwatching most days in places that you wouldn’t take a Motorhome and certainly would not ride a bike to, that’s why we take our car also we take our two dogs out with us.
Everyone’s needs are different, but you need to think about the options in the first place, we had been motorhoming for three years before deciding on taking a car. Good luck with your plans and driving licence.

Same here - we had a motorhome for ages before we got a small car on a A frame and that was purely due to the fact our dogs got older and can’t (won’t!) walk as far as needed. Probally will selling on car once dogs are gone ( unless we are too old and knackered to walk too by then!!

 

[KiwiGT]

Hi all,

We have not long bought our motorhome (which is still currently being built) and I have been looking into pulling a car on the back.

I intend on going away for the duration of the summer as I am teacher, so having a small car handy would be great. I don't want to pull a trailer and I am away there are some countries you can't pull a car on an A-Frame - I shall just avoid those ;-).

After visiting some car dealerships there appears to be some different opinions and they have said not to do this to a car. Ford said the KA+ is good for it and it does not clock up the miles as the car is not actually on? Smart said they do not recommend it at all as this can damage the gearbox should it go out of neutral which is not unheard of (then would need a new gear box). Fiat said the 500 would need to be pulled backwards?

Any help is appreciated.

Hi all,

We have not long bought our motorhome (which is still currently being built) and I have been looking into pulling a car on the back.

I intend on going away for the duration of the summer as I am teacher, so having a small car handy would be great. I don't want to pull a trailer and I am away there are some countries you can't pull a car on an A-Frame - I shall just avoid those ;-).

After visiting some car dealerships there appears to be some different opinions and they have said not to do this to a car. Ford said the KA+ is good for it and it does not clock up the miles as the car is not actually on? Smart said they do not recommend it at all as this can damage the gearbox should it go out of neutral which is not unheard of (then would need a new gear box). Fiat said the 500 would need to be pulled backwards?

Any help is appreciated.

This website is ver6 informative about the rules. There is a lot of confusion about a frames in Europe but this clears it up and has letters you can print out in various languages to give to police if you are stopped. They also sell ready fitted cars.
Broken Link Removed

 

[pappajohn]

This website is ver6 informative about the rules. There is a lot of confusion about a frames in Europe but this clears it up and has letters you can print out in various languages to give to police if you are stopped. They also sell ready fitted cars.
Broken Link Removed

The letters they have produced are nothing more than a sales gimmick.
Asked if they would give written guarantee of release of your car if it was impounded in a foreign country because of the use of one of their 'legal' A frames would not get you a written and signed guarantee.... They would simply say.. Show them that letter.
The law in various countries states the use of A frames is illegal regardless if its illegal or not in your home country.
The letter has no legal meaning.

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[Deleted member 57092]

I used to use an a frame for recovering cars and towing back from auctions.
You are right about them being near impossible to reverse, unless you get someone to sit in the towed car and steer.
The only thing we ever found that we couldn't tow with one was a fiat 126 bis, it has some kind of odd steering geometry that made it try to continue on around corners ! We were towing with a V8 Landrover discovery which wasn't affected, but the howling from the fiats front tyres was somewhat concerning.
In that case we had to get a mechanic to sit in it and steer whilst we travelled about 80 miles home including a fair bit of motorway.
I still have it somewhere.
Paul

 

[bigtwin]

Taken from said website I think you are wrong?as stated last paragraph.
As long as 6 ton not exceeded.
The chassis plate on the vehicle (see table in Section 7) states the maximum weights allowed - the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) and the Gross Combination Weight (GCW).

......................

Where the sum of the maximum plated weights of the towing vehicle and of the trailer added together exceed the plated GCW of the towing vehicle, this is not a problem as long as the ‘actual’ weights of the vehicle and trailer (which may not be fully laden at the time) do not exceed the plated GCW

Yes, I’ve made this argument (based on information from a police officer) on a number of occasions.

Nice to have the ‘official’ evidence presented.

Ian

 

[Deleted member 57092]

You can down rate the tow vehicle to accommodate the car and trailer to within the GTW 'gross train weight' although most motorhomes don't have a lot of weight capacity to play with.
For example , I once had a 7.5 ton truck that had a GTW of 8250kg. (7500kg plus a 750kg trailer)
So the truck was downrated to 6250kg so that it could tow a total weight of car and trailer of 2000kg.
However although the truck had an alloy two car transporter body on it ,when the set up had three decent sized cars aboard it was well over weight, but because it was new and shiny and looked the part fortunately I was never stopped.
Being based on a 7.5 tonner it had no governor so went like stink when it was empty.
Full it was a different story.
Paul

 

[G2EWS]

Good morning from just down the road Richie,

We live just outside Devizes.

With regards to trailers and 'A' Frames you will be bombarded by differing views, none of which are wrong!

Our first toad was my still owned, but too precious to tow anymore classic Mini convertible. I bought a trailer and soon found this more trouble than it was worth. A lot of effort to put the car on the trailer and a lot of effort to take it off. Then you have to think where you are going to store it at home and on site.

So I put an A Frame on and it became a much simpler process.

Fast forward to this year and we changed our motorhome to an A Class Mobilvetta. I use the motorhome on business and visit water treatment sites around the country. It was obviously not going to be sensible to take the motorhome down very narrow roads and tracks. So I bought a Smart fortwo which had an A frame already fitted.

This has become a simple solution. The car has zero road tax, supposedly 88 mpg and insurance around £100 - 150.

I would say the only problem is it has the old inertia braked A frame. This is quite a heavy and large lump. I can and do fit it in the boot of the car when not in use and boot of the motorhome when on site. I will probably change this for one of the newer electronic braking A frames. These are very light and easy to stow, but quite expensive.

As I say, mine is only one opinion and others will shoot me down. But it is another opinion!

If you need any information or assistance drop me a pm and happy to meet up if I am around and chat over a glass of red wine!

Best regards


Chris

 

[Paul and Val]

Chipping CAN cause its own problems... Accelerated clutch wear etc.
QUOTE]

I have chipped every car over the last ten years. All diesels, all driven quickly and quite hard and we do a very high mileage. Never had a problem of any sort with clutch wear etc and never actually met anybody who has.

Lots of people seem to hate the idea of chipping but I think it is absolutely wonderful. My wife's old SAAB turbo goes like a jet and the fuel consumption has also improved since chipping.

If it going to be a 130bhp Fiat Ducato engine in his motor home I would definitely have it chipped. Our front wheel drive Ford with 170bhp has sufficient power and the traction control is less than perfect, being too easy to spin the wheels in wet conditions so I have decided not to chip it but if I was going to tow a trailer I certainly would.

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[POH]

Hi , we are still newbie's to this m/h thing but getting a little better each time we get away , we also thought about towing a small car but as others have said maybe have another look in 12months time , also think about the cost of it all 3/4 grand for the car +another for conversion + insurance and before you know it you have spent best part of 5/6 grand ,we also thought about hiring a car to get around, that 5/6 grand is a lot of rentals , if you are a member of the caravan and motorhome club you get a discount from enterprise and they will pick you up from the site ( down side is there has to be a depot nearby) you can get their app on your phone which shows the depots closest to you (not used it yet but thinking about it ) not gone over the water yet but it is on the cards for later on this year (just got to convince the other half, fingers grossed) so I will be back on to all you hardy travellers for your vast knowledge to make sure we don't go wrong.

 

[pappajohn]

There are numerous threads all over the forum regarding clutch failure due to excess strain due to extra power through chipping.

 

[pappajohn]

also think about the cost of it all 3/4 grand for the car +another for conversion + insurance and before you know it you have spent best part of 5/6 grand

Why...... Why spend so much on a car, or do you need to keep up with the Jones's.
My toad was a 1997 Vauxhall Corsa which I got for nothing but was worth around £500, my A frame cost £120 second hand. Road tax for the year cost more than the insurance.
It doesn't have to be expensive, nobody cares what you drive.

 

[Paul and Val]

There are numerous threads all over the forum regarding clutch failure due to excess strain due to extra power through chipping.

I tried to respond to this claim earlier but had a mishap.

I have always chipped my cars and seen increased performance and drivability and on some models such as my wife's SAAB turbo an excellent and worthwhile decrease in fuel consumption. They have all been driven fairly hard over much higher mileages than most people cover and I have never had any problem whatsoever. None of them have been new and the 2.2 litre TDCI 155bhp Mondeo that I chipped up to about 180bhp a few years ago was still on its original duel mass clutch (a well known weak point on that model) at 160,000 miles when it was sent on it's way.

Many people don't like the idea of chipping and seem to be keen on spreading exaggerated stories of problems whenever possible. They seem to misunderstand that we are not talking about wild increases in engine performance but rather gentle but worthwhile improvements in drivability.

If the poster of this thread is going to have just 130bhp in the form of the rather meagre output from the outdated FIAT engine then I would chip it in a heartbeat.

We have not so far chipped our Ford as it has a comfortable 170bhp and that amount coupled with front wheel drive leaves the traction control wanting on wet roads. It is not Fords finest piece of engineering. However we did talk about taking a trailer to take our 2CV with us (we have discounted that idea now due to cost) and we would certainly have had it chipped.

Chipping really is a magic bullet and I absolutely recommend it for any diesel vehicle especially if towing.

 

[Rimswell Wanderer]

I tow a Toyota Aygo and have done for the past four years without any problems in the UK. My background is Engineering and after researching
tow frames I decided on the one made by Tow Bars For Two Cars purely on an engineering point of view. The company is really good to get on with and the staff are brilliant, I usually speak to Graham or Terry and on technical support Rodger is the guy to contact. You would think that they are all family and quite frankly that’s how they come across nothing seems to be too much for them, you can usually see them at the Warners out and about live shows. The photograph is my early Toyota but now have the new version of the Aygo

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[POH]

would chipping our fiat ducato 130 increase the insurance by a big margin?? also would it increase the mpg and what about the warranty.

 

[Speve]

would chipping our fiat ducato 130 increase the insurance by a big margin?? also would it increase the mpg and what about the warranty.

I wouldn’t do it if still under warranty could give problems if you have to claim.

 

[Paul and Val]

I wouldn’t do it if still under warranty could give problems if you have to claim.

That is correct if under warranty I would not do it BUT if it is out of warranty then do get it chipped. Much more enjoyable to drive.

 

[Paul and Val]

would chipping our fiat ducato 130 increase the insurance by a big margin?? also would it increase the mpg and what about the warranty.

If you tune the system for maximum power then you would see a decrease if you then use that power. Most tunes however are not about peak output but rather about improving torque and drivability and it is best not to go for peak performance but rather a balance. I have never had a chipped car use more fuel. It varies from model to model. The Ford Mondeo and the SAAB diesels saw a very nice reduction in fuel usage and a lot more power but our current BMW 335D has a bit more power but the fuel consumption is about the same, no better. I think because the BMW was in a higher state of tune to start with.

CORRECTION I quoted in my earlier initial post on this subject that the dual mass clutch (which is a known problem on the Mondeo) was the original one when we sold it at 160.000 miles. In fact that was an error. I remembered afterwards that when I bought the car originally the clutch was slipping and was replaced. It was then chipped and we never had any problems.

My wife's SAAB 1.9 turbo diesel is at 158.000 miles, also has a problematical duel mass clutch and is still on the original one which is very good indeed and perhaps is a good example that extra power does not mean clutch issues.

In most driving situations a sensible driver only uses the extra power a very small amount of the time so unless you are a mad head who will be spinning wheels you are very unlikely to have problems.

 

[DDJC]

This is different question on the issue of trailers & a-frames, hopefully it will assist the OP.

We have a Suzuki Ignis (2WD, robotised gearbox) on a Woodford LWT-072 trailer which is probably the shortest 2 axle trailer you can get. The car is 860kg, crit-air 1, 4 door and being quite tall, roomy inside. The trailer is rated at 1600kg max and we have about 50kg on the noseweight, depending on how far the car is on the trailer bed.

As far as I understand, a-frames are technically prohibited in France and Germany, but are quite clearly illegal in Spain where the ban is enforced. Nevertheless, we are thinking of getting an a-frame for shorter trips, such as UK, Ireland, Belgium and Holland.

The various a-frame fitting companies provide a letter (in the appropriate language) explaining to Monsieur Gendarme or Herr Polizist that actually, use of the a-frame is perfectly legal under EU law, because it is legal in the UK. Not, however, in Spain as they did not sign the agreement.

So the obvious question is, after 29 March, on the assumption we are leaving the EU (in whatever format), would the fact that using an a-frame is legal in UK have any bearing on EU law? Therefore removing the rights of UK motorhomers to use an a-frame?

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[pappajohn]

So the obvious question is, after 29 March, on the assumption we are leaving the EU (in whatever format), would the fact that using an a-frame is legal in UK have any bearing on EU law? Therefore removing the rights of UK motorhomers to use an a-frame?

Different EU countries decide on their own motoring laws.
As an example, its legal to ride a moped at 14 years old in France as its classed as a powered bicycle... In the UK the minimum age is 16 and its classed as a motor cycle.
Germany has stretches of autobahn without speed limit... We have a maximum 70mph speed limit.
Heavy goods vehicles are/were banned from roads on Sundays in France.
They never have been here.

If they say no A frames then its their choice and nothing to do with the EU.

Oh, and A frames are not Legal in the UK, their use is accepted.
There use has never been contested in a court of law and until it has and a legal precedent has been set they remain neither legal nor illegal.

 

[gus-lopez]

use of the a-frame is perfectly legal under EU law, because it is legal in the UK. Not, however, in Spain as they did not sign the agreement.

Yes as @pappajohn says I wouldn't push it as a knowledgeable eu copper who knows they aren't legal in the Uk could get funny.

 

[Peter and Julie]

Fiat said the 500 would need to be pulled backwards?
I have one and no they don't! Mines a manual gearbox on a 62 plate.

 

[Mr Chrysalis]

Fiat said the 500 would need to be pulled backwards?
I have one and no they don't! Mines a manual gearbox on a 62 plate.

Someone is pulling something!

 

[tribalbrit]

I'd not bother towing a car, just go in the MH. find somewhere you like, stay a few days then move on. You don't need to travel far, just to somewhere else you like and again stay a few days and move on.
If you're not sure where to head I'm sure folk's on here will be happy to advise and share their thoughts and experiences.
Given that it's your first time this might be the best option for you, if you do decide to tow, this might put you off motor homing for good.
The MH to me is about the freedom to pack up and move on on a whim.

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[mitzimad]

What salesman would let you buy a Moho that you didn’t have a licence to drive?

Oh yeah, that’s right, most of them.

No all of them

 

[pandas]

Don't forget about our white 4 door VW up, brilliant for towing on an A Frame, all the connections/braking installed and the A Frame gathering dust since we got electric bikes.
As long as you understand you could be fined in Spain - we have a letter from the consulate and there maybe other countries where it is illegal. Trailer; Seen people struggling, great for those snow birds that head to Spain for 4 months at a time when the hassle of parking up the trailer off loading the car is not an issue but I personally would not attempt it if I was touring.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

No all of them

How would they know if you didnt have the right licence.....they are never going to ask

 

[Blue Knight]

How would they know if you didnt have the right licence.....they are never going to ask

That's a fair point you make sir.

 

[pandas]

How would they know if you didnt have the right licence.....they are never going to ask

The insurance company might!

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[Cheshirecat57]

The insurance company might!

Yes they would
Im not condoning wrong licence, was just commenting on Salesman inadequecies