Overheating & Ripoff

[GreyVanMan]

Long story, trying to keep short.
120miles into journey, van goes into limp mode, no visible warnings on dashboard.
Cooling water reservoir empty, water everywhere. Cool down, top up from kettle. Limp into nearby dealership (lucky - maybe not!) Yes we can fix that!
Dealership diagnose thermostat, replace, still overheating, possibly waterpump, BTW £790 please.
Recovery: assessor has a look - turn engine on, turn on cab heater - no heat - 'It's your water pump gov'nr', all inside 60seconds.
Recovered back to Cornwall. Fixed at my favourite garage, yes, it was the water pump. Basic.
I am considering taking action against the dealership: They misdiagnosed the problem, carried out unnecessary work, and fabricated a bill of £790.

My question is; am I wrong is claiming they should have been able to properly diagnose the problem by use of the heater?
If they didn't know this, they should have known it. The basis being that no matter what the thermostat was doing the heater will still work, if the water pump had failed there would be no water circulating to reach the heater.
I have approached the dealership who refute my claims and request for refund (partial).

 

[GreyVanMan]

And fir info what was the price of Cam belt change plus water pump. ? Thanks.

I had that done earlier in the year £1,018 but that was included with a full service. Charge for the 'Cam belt Kit' which include water pump, replacement seals etc was £186. Labour was £440 but unable to split the proportions of the cam-belt/service.

 

[meanders]

I would. Give them a week or ten days to respond, the start the small claims procedure. That will cost you, but you can include that as part of the claim.

 

[GreyVanMan]

Have already done the letter bit, suggesting I pay for 1hours diagnosis and requesting a refund of the remainder. The garage rebuffs the request. I'm here making sure I'm on the right track with claiming the diagnosis of the thermostat was wrong and I was billed for unnecessary work. I sent the letter to the manager of the branch, perhaps I ought to resend, this time to the CEO, as you suggest; it is a reasonably sized family chain.

Hard to tell. You tried to keep it short, but probably too short! I don't understand your timeline. Did the dealer do the work for £790?

The dealer only did the change of thermostat. Included in the £790 was £83 for roadside attendance, which I do accept.

 

[L' Hobo]

The kit for the cam belt comes with a replacement water pump as standard.

Not so, Gates, and others, will supply with or without, whatever you order!

If what you say is true, I would be sitting here with 3 waterpumps because I always buy kits containing belt & tensioner.

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[GreyVanMan]

I had that done earlier in the year £1,018 but that was included with a full service. Charge for the 'Cam belt Kit' which include water pump, replacement seals etc was £186. Labour was £440 but unable to split the proportions of the cam-belt/servic

Welcome.

This is a difficult one, because the first dealership could legitimately claim they were acting to the best of their knowledge and expertise (lacking though it might be), in order to assist you.

You might want to find out if the dealership is a member of a trade association, and if so, approach them with a grievance. Alternately, if your vehicle insurance has the legal assistance package (which I always recommend having), you could approach them for help and advice.
I have used the latter a couple of times, to my benefit.

Hope this helps.

Reply from by broker pending - thanks for the nod

 

[GreyVanMan]

I would. Give them a week or ten days to respond, the start the small claims procedure. That will cost you, but you can include that as part of the claim.

That is indeed my next step. Have already done the letter bit, suggesting I pay for 1hours diagnosis and requesting a refund of the remainder. The garage rebuffs the request. I'm here making sure I'm on the right track with claiming the diagnosis of the thermostat was wrong and I was billed for unnecessary work. I sent the letter to the manager of the branch, perhaps I ought to resend, this time to the CEO, as you suggest; it is a reasonably sized family chain.
Citizens Advice also recommend Small Claims Court.

 

[GreyVanMan]

If an engine is low on water the heater will go cold first as the heater radiater is the highest part of the water system.

This was after a re-charge of cooling water through the header tank. (Water was reintroduced from the kettle - handy having a camper when you break down)

 

[Al n Val]

I recently got nowhere until I included the CEO in the emails

 

[Barriesimpson]

Long story, trying to keep short.
120miles into journey, van goes into limp mode, no visible warnings on dashboard.
Cooling water reservoir empty, water everywhere. Cool down, top up from kettle. Limp into nearby dealership (lucky - maybe not!) Yes we can fix that!
Dealership diagnose thermostat, replace, still overheating, possibly waterpump, BTW £790 please.
Recovery: assessor has a look - turn engine on, turn on cab heater - no heat - 'It's your water pump gov'nr', all inside 60seconds.
Recovered back to Cornwall. Fixed at my favourite garage, yes, it was the water pump. Basic.
I am considering taking action against the dealership: They misdiagnosed the problem, carried out unnecessary work, and fabricated a bill of £790.

My question is; am I wrong is claiming they should have been able to properly diagnose the problem by use of the heater?
If they didn't know this, they should have known it. The basis being that no matter what the thermostat was doing the heater will still work, if the water pump had failed there would be no water circulating to reach the heater.
I have approached the dealership who refute my claims and request for refund (partial).

When the thermostat stops working an easy diagnosis is to open the radiator cap and put your finger in. If the thermostat has not opened, the water will be cold. Thermostats that cause a problem will always have failed in the closed position. If they fail while open, the engine temperature will never get up to normal running temperature. It's as simple as that. I realise that does not help you if you are not familiar with the working of an engine, but the dealer really does need to know that.

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[L' Hobo]

When the thermostat stops working an easy diagnosis is to open the radiator cap and put your finger in. If the thermostat has not opened, the water will be cold. Thermostats that cause a problem will always have failed in the closed position. If they fail while open, the engine temperature will never get up to normal running temperature. It's as simple as that. I realise that does not help you if you are not familiar with the working of an engine, but the dealer really does need to know that.

Sorry I have to strongly disagree with both bits of your advice.

First I would not advise anyone to stick their fingers in or even open a hot radiator cap ( if you can get to one these days as most of the time it's an expansion tank)

Secondly, unless they have drastically changed, ALL thermostats fail in the OPEN position!

 

[Barriesimpson]

Sorry I have to strongly disagree with both bits of your advice.

First I would not advise anyone to stick their fingers in or even open a hot radiator cap ( if you can get to one these days as most of the time it's an expansion tank)

Secondly, unless they have drastically changed, ALL thermostats fail in the OPEN position!

Well just touch the radiator before you open it (if you can, as you say). Thermostats can fail in the closed position, it's not normal, but it can happen please believe me.

 

[Bobbejaan]

That is indeed my next step. Have already done the letter bit, suggesting I pay for 1hours diagnosis and requesting a refund of the remainder. The garage rebuffs the request. I'm here making sure I'm on the right track with claiming the diagnosis of the thermostat was wrong and I was billed for unnecessary work. I sent the letter to the manager of the branch, perhaps I ought to resend, this time to the CEO, as you suggest; it is a reasonably sized family chain.
Citizens Advice also recommend Small Claims Court.

Unless I've missed it, a very relevant question to your predicament would be
..... Did you pay the 'thermostat replacing dealer' by Credit Card ?

IF so, that would also open another potential dispute or recovery path with your Credit Card company under Section 75.

...... I personally pay all bills/charges/fees/etc between £100 and £30,000 by Credit Card and pay it off to the CC company in full each month as that gives you (as a consumer) far superior protection, and in my experience, if you can convince the CC company that you have a viable case, they often have no compunction or delay in simply directly debiting the dealer's account and refunding you timeously.

That process can save you quite a lot of time and money compared to going down the Small Claims Procedures route.

 

[L' Hobo]

Well just touch the radiator before you open it (if you can, as you say). Thermostats can fail in the closed position, it's not normal, but it can happen please believe me.

To be honest, except for maintaining my own vehicles, neither of which are 'modern', I have been away from hands on spannering for about 15yrs and am surprised, in these days of sensors and ECU's, that engines still have thermostats.
I would have thought the the circulation could have been controlled by the sensors?

 

[GreyVanMan]

Best interest or not, I'd expect a professional service to be competent, and 'expert' in their trade. They do use the term 'in the best interest' in their reply to my letter.

I recently got nowhere until I included the CEO in the emails

Thanks Al n Val, I think that might be my next move.
I once wrote to the CEO of South West Water, when our water pressure dropped to zero with a disabled child covered in 'yuk' from both ends. My previous attempts with the 'helpline' came to nothing. Things moved bloody fast after that; mind you, I did cc it to my MP and his opposition.

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[GreyVanMan]

Unless I've missed it, a very relevant question to your predicament would be
..... Did you pay the 'thermostat replacing dealer' by Credit Card ?

IF so, that would also open another potential dispute or recovery path with your Credit Card company under Section 75.

...... I personally pay all bills/charges/fees/etc between £100 and £30,000 by Credit Card and pay it off to the CC company in full each month as that gives you (as a consumer) far superior protection, and in my experience, if you can convince the CC company that you have a viable case, they often have no compunction or delay in simply directly debiting the dealer's account and refunding you timeously.

That process can save you quite a lot of time and money compared to going down the Small Claims Procedures route.

Thanks Bobbejaan, regrettably no, it wad DC. So far I've reserved my CC for things I'm not so sure about - yeah, lesson learned. BTW, have you seen any of the presentations given by Frank Abignale on YouTube; adds to your argument.

 

[GreyVanMan]

To be honest, except for maintaining my own vehicles, neither of which are 'modern', I have been away from hands on spannering for about 15yrs and am surprised, in these days of sensors and ECU's, that engines still have thermostats.
I would have thought the the circulation could have been controlled by the sensors?

Yes it's a wax filled type. I've had so much more problems with sensors, automation and monitoring that I have had with the sheer mechanics. The first car I worked on was my schools CCF series 1 Land Rover (called Sandra - no one knew why, but we all invented many a likely story) - I just don't trust myself with modern stuff.

 

[GreyVanMan]

Thanks Bobbejaan, regrettably no, it wad DC. So far I've reserved my CC for things I'm not so sure about - yeah, lesson learned. BTW, have you seen any of the presentations given by Frank Abignale on YouTube; adds to your argument.

Sorry, 'was' not 'wad'. Oh Please! - fat finger syndrome - or something like that.

 

[gib1772]

Hi changed my cambelt last year kit had new water pump at 27 000 miles water pump had a rough bearing so would say change while you do cambelt

 

[B-JandBella]

I had my cam belt done on my Fiat Ducato 2001 at the beginning of this year with my local machanic.
I supplied the the belt and pump and he did the cam belt but told me the pump
is still looking and working fine, so should not bother fitting the new pump, keep as a spare.
Done on a Saturday morning, cost....£160 pounds please.
"Here's £180, have a drink on me"!

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[GreyVanMan]

I had my cam belt done on my Fiat Ducato 2001 at the beginning of this year with my local machanic.
I supplied the the belt and pump and he did the cam belt but told me the pump
is still looking and working fine, so should not bother fitting the new pump, keep as a spare.
Done on a Saturday morning, cost....£160 pounds please.
"Here's £180, have a drink on me"!

Wow! That's a snip, well worth a few pints.

 

[GreyVanMan]

Sorry, 'was' not 'wad'. Oh Please! - fat finger syndrome - or something like that.

The auto moderation got hold of this - the 'Oh Please' started out a the abbreviation of 'Fat finger syndrome'

 

[Platelet]

The only hard bit about changing the water pump on my x250 (2013) was pressing out the fuel pump to put on the new housing. There is however a lot of dismantling of the offside engine bay to get at the Cam belt in the first place.

Years ago I had a Renault car (can’t remember the model) where the water pump had gone. I ended up removing an engine mounting and jacking the engine up to get at it!

 

[CamperManLez]

If your Van has the 2 ltr DW10 engine? it is well known in white van man land that the water pumps are junk, you have to buy a aftermarket replacement with the all metal impeller.

 

[eddie]

What you can't prove is that the damage to the water pump was caused by a faulty thermostat

A stuck thermostat will imped the water flow to the pump and create impeller or seal failure

The thermostat could have been faulty, the pump 'working' but subsequently failed under load

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[GreyVanMan]

Big thanks to all, lots of interesting input, thanks.

My basic question is; are the following statements correct or wrong.

1: If the heater delivers heat the water pump is OK & If the heater does not deliver heat the water pump has failed.

2: The function of the thermostat has no bearing as it controls the flow to the radiator without affecting the flow to the heater.


Damn, it's hard to find a relevant diagram.

 

[GreyVanMan]

If your Van has the 2 ltr DW10 engine? it is well known in white van man land that the water pumps are junk, you have to buy a aftermarket replacement with the all metal impeller.

Thanks, interestingly the recovery assessor said very much the same, the bonding on plastic impeller onto the shaft fails.

 

[GreyVanMan]

If an engine is low on water the heater will go cold first as the heater radiater is the highest part of the water system.

It was one of the hottest days of the year, heater not running at the time. I got the warning by the engine going into limp mode; and a lot of water all over the place under the bonnet.

 

[dunnah01]

Big thanks to all, lots of interesting input, thanks.

My basic question is; are the following statements correct or wrong.

1: If the heater delivers heat the water pump is OK & If the heater does not deliver heat the water pump has failed.

2: The function of the thermostat has no bearing as it controls the flow to the radiator without affecting the flow to the heater.


Damn, it's hard to find a relevant diagram.

1. If the engine is up to temperature there will be some heat when the pump has failed due to convection through the cooling water. If the engine is cold then there will be no heat.
2. Correct - the heater acts as the radiator if there is no flow past the thermostat (stuck closed) - thermostats often fail open and failure shows as the engine taking a long time to get to temperature if it ever does

 

[GreyVanMan]

Sorry I have to strongly disagree with both bits of your advice.

First I would not advise anyone to stick their fingers in or even open a hot radiator cap ( if you can get to one these days as most of the time it's an expansion tank)

Secondly, unless they have drastically changed, ALL thermostats fail in the OPEN position!

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[L' Hobo]

View attachment 956456

Not quite sure what you are trying to show me because most vehicle mechanics & engineers will know that there was, at least, two types of thermostat.

The thermostat is often operated by air pressure or vacuum in the bellows surrounded by or contained inside by a large spring,

Should the thermostat fail, this large spring forces it into the open position.

If you know any different, could you please either show a link or better still, post a picture because I'm always open to be educated and in 65yrs of spannering on ships, boats,cars, trucks and coaches, I have never seen one.

It just doesn't make sense that any machine thermostat would fail in a closed position and cause that machine to overheat!