Overheating & Ripoff

[GreyVanMan]

Long story, trying to keep short.
120miles into journey, van goes into limp mode, no visible warnings on dashboard.
Cooling water reservoir empty, water everywhere. Cool down, top up from kettle. Limp into nearby dealership (lucky - maybe not!) Yes we can fix that!
Dealership diagnose thermostat, replace, still overheating, possibly waterpump, BTW £790 please.
Recovery: assessor has a look - turn engine on, turn on cab heater - no heat - 'It's your water pump gov'nr', all inside 60seconds.
Recovered back to Cornwall. Fixed at my favourite garage, yes, it was the water pump. Basic.
I am considering taking action against the dealership: They misdiagnosed the problem, carried out unnecessary work, and fabricated a bill of £790.

My question is; am I wrong is claiming they should have been able to properly diagnose the problem by use of the heater?
If they didn't know this, they should have known it. The basis being that no matter what the thermostat was doing the heater will still work, if the water pump had failed there would be no water circulating to reach the heater.
I have approached the dealership who refute my claims and request for refund (partial).

 

[DDJC]

Long story, trying to keep short.
120miles into journey, van goes into limp mode, no visible warnings on dashboard.
Cooling water reservoir empty, water everywhere. Cool down, top up from kettle. Limp into nearby dealership (lucky - maybe not!) Yes we can fix that!
Dealership diagnose thermostat, replace, still overheating, possibly waterpump, BTW £790 please.
Recovery: assessor has a look - turn engine on, turn on cab heater - no heat - 'It's your water pump gov'nr', all inside 60seconds.
Recovered back to Cornwall. Fixed at my favourite garage, yes, it was the water pump. Basic.
I am considering taking action against the dealership: They misdiagnosed the problem, carried out unnecessary work, and fabricated a bill of £790.

My question is; am I wrong is claiming they should have been able to properly diagnose the problem by use of the heater?
If they didn't know this, they should have known it. The basis being that no matter what the thermostat was doing the heater will still work, if the water pump had failed there would be no water circulating to reach the heater.
I have approached the dealership who refute my claims and request for refund (partial).

Hard to tell. You tried to keep it short, but probably too short! I don't understand your timeline. Did the dealer do the work for £790?

 

[Brize]

Welcome.

This is a difficult one, because the first dealership could legitimately claim they were acting to the best of their knowledge and expertise (lacking though it might be), in order to assist you.

You might want to find out if the dealership is a member of a trade association, and if so, approach them with a grievance. Alternately, if your vehicle insurance has the legal assistance package (which I always recommend having), you could approach them for help and advice.
I have used the latter a couple of times, to my benefit.

Hope this helps.

 

[Grummyb]

Long story, trying to keep short.
120miles into journey, van goes into limp mode, no visible warnings on dashboard.
Cooling water reservoir empty, water everywhere. Cool down, top up from kettle. Limp into nearby dealership (lucky - maybe not!) Yes we can fix that!
Dealership diagnose thermostat, replace, still overheating, possibly waterpump, BTW £790 please.
Recovery: assessor has a look - turn engine on, turn on cab heater - no heat - 'It's your water pump gov'nr', all inside 60seconds.
Recovered back to Cornwall. Fixed at my favourite garage, yes, it was the water pump. Basic.
I am considering taking action against the dealership: They misdiagnosed the problem, carried out unnecessary work, and fabricated a bill of £790.

My question is; am I wrong is claiming they should have been able to properly diagnose the problem by use of the heater?
If they didn't know this, they should have known it. The basis being that no matter what the thermostat was doing the heater will still work, if the water pump had failed there would be no water circulating to reach the heater.
I have approached the dealership who refute my claims and request for refund (partial).

im guessing the thermostat is the cheapest of the 2 jobs and and as that had been replaced and assuming you told the recovery mechanic you had just had the thermostat done and water wasnt leaking everywhere he had a fairly easy job of diagnosing the water pump.

 

[GreyVanMan]

im guessing the thermostat is the cheapest of the 2 jobs and and as that had been replaced and assuming you told the recovery mechanic you had just had the thermostat done and water wasnt leaking everywhere he had a fairly easy job of diagnosing the water pump.

The recovery mechanic diagnosed it blind.

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[GreyVanMan]

To put the conclusion up would only be fair.
The water pump was eventually replaced by the garage that had done the cambelt change as part of the 5year service about 5 months previously. What I didn't know at the time, is that the water pump comes as part of the kit. They replaced the water pump AND the cam belt again (because it's part of the kit/procedure) all under warranty.
I have used this garage since 1998, that have fought my corner several times with previous cars. River Valley, St Austell, if anybody passing needs a recommendation.

 

[Roger S]

If an engine is low on water the heater will go cold first as the heater radiater is the highest part of the water system.

 

[SVMC15]

To put the conclusion up would only be fair.
The water pump was eventually replaced by the garage that had done the cambelt change as part of the 5year service about 5 months previously. What I didn't know at the time, is that the water pump comes as part of the kit. They replaced the water pump AND the cam belt again (because it's part of the kit/procedure) all under warranty.
I have used this garage since 1998, that have fought my corner several times with previous cars. River Valley, St Austell, if anybody passing needs a recommendation.

So was the water pump only 5 months old?

 

[Figaro]

So was the water pump only 5 months old?

Or was it never changed when the cam belt was replaced ?

 

[L' Hobo]

To put the conclusion up would only be fair.
The water pump was eventually replaced by the garage that had done the cambelt change as part of the 5year service about 5 months previously. What I didn't know at the time, is that the water pump comes as part of the kit. They replaced the water pump AND the cam belt again (because it's part of the kit/procedure) all under warranty.
I have used this garage since 1998, that have fought my corner several times with previous cars. River Valley, St Austell, if anybody passing needs a recommendation.

SOME kit's do come with a water pump and some kits DO NOT!

IF your vehicle is Fiat Ducato based, the waterpump is expected to last the life of the engine and shouldn't need changing UNLESS something is obviously wrong with it.
This was told me by a Fiat Professional mechanic which I trust and my X250 2007 66000ml Ducato is still on its original one.

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[gus-lopez]

So the first garage diagnosed a thermostat & charged 790 pounds? have I got that right?

 

[Al n Val]

So the first garage diagnosed a thermostat & charged 790 pounds? have I got that right?

I was thinking exactly the same

 

[Garfields]

The thermostat stuck shut would have been my first thought. It is common for the heater to stop working when a engine starts to overheat and push out coolant.

Re the water pump if you have a hunt through the various threads on here re cam belt changes just about everyone gets the water pump changed at the same time.

Or was a replaced newish water pump faulty ? in which case you may have a better chance though still not great chasing the manufacturer of the pump.

What was the £790 for ?

 

[SVMC15]

Or was it never changed when the cam belt was replaced ?

Hence why I asked. I have always changed mine even though they should last, I think the whole continental kit inc pump and aux belts was £230 (4 years ago). If it was changed 5 months prior I also wouldn't happy!

 

[dunnah01]

Initial diagnosis of thermostat failure would suit the symptoms. Recovery guy fluked it if he could tell it was the pump after 60 seconds from a cold engine. £700+ for a thermostat is the right ballpark for rip off dealers

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[Jimbohorlicks]

To put the conclusion up would only be fair.
The water pump was eventually replaced by the garage that had done the cambelt change as part of the 5year service about 5 months previously. What I didn't know at the time, is that the water pump comes as part of the kit. They replaced the water pump AND the cam belt again (because it's part of the kit/procedure) all under warranty.
I have used this garage since 1998, that have fought my corner several times with previous cars. River Valley, St Austell, if anybody passing needs a recommendation.

And fir info what was the price of Cam belt change plus water pump. ? Thanks.

 

[L' Hobo]

The thermostat stuck shut would have been my first thought.

Re the water pump if you have a hunt through the various threads on here re cam belt changes just about everyone gets the water pump changed at the same time.

What was the £790 for ?

Or is that just what they have been told happens?

I thought the practice of changing the water pump at the same time as the belt, went out years ago when it was just a few bolts behind the fan. Today on a Fiat +06, I'm told it involves dismantling most of the front of the engine and probably caused more problems with leaks etc. than it solves?

I always ask for the changed parts to be returned, has anyone had a waterpump returned?

 

[SVMC15]

Or is that just what they have been told happens?

I thought the practice of changing the water pump at the same time as the belt, went out years ago when it was just a few bolts behind the fan. Today on a Fiat +06, I'm told it involves dismantling most of the front of the engine and probably caused more problems with leaks etc. than it solves?

I always ask for the changed parts to be returned, has anyone had a waterpump returned?

The only hard bit about changing the water pump on my x250 (2013) was pressing out the fuel pump to put on the new housing. There is however a lot of dismantling of the offside engine bay to get at the Cam belt in the first place.

I am still undecided if I will change the water pump next year, it will all depend on the price, four years ago the continental cam belt and water pump kit was only £230ish so was a no brainer.

 

[L' Hobo]

The only hard bit about changing the water pump on my x250 (2013) was pressing out the fuel pump to put on the new housing. There is however a lot of dismantling of the offside engine bay to get at the Cam belt in the first place.

I am still undecided if I will change the water pump next year, it will all depend on the price, four years ago the continental cam belt and water pump kit was only £230ish so was a no brainer.

What about the extra mechanics hours, that another £2-300.
If you do get it changed, ask for the old one back and see if it has worn and worth it?

Come back and show us perhaps?

PS. When I had my cam and auxiliary belts changed last year, it cost me £750 or something like that?

 

[meanders]

To answer your original question, you probably do have a claim. Main dealers are supposed to know more than a back street garage. I would shove in a sensible refund request on writing to the MD or CEO. If that fails, take it to small claims court.

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[Garfields]

What about the extra mechanics hours, that another £2-300.
If you do get it changed, ask for the old one back and see if it has worn and worth it?

Come back and show us perhaps?

PS. When I had my cam and auxiliary belts changed last year, it cost me £750 or something like that?

Changing the pump when you have everything off for the cam belt is no big deal. Extra half hour?
£750 is what I would expect for belt and pump change non main dealer.

 

[L' Hobo]

Changing the pump when you have everything off for the cam belt is no big deal. Extra half hour?
£750 is what I would expect for belt and pump change non main dealer.

If you're happy, I'm happy!
An extra half hour is not what Fiat quote?


Mine was with a Fiat specialist!

 

[SVMC15]

What about the extra mechanics hours, that another £2-300.
If you do get it changed, ask for the old one back and see if it has worn and worth it?

Come back and show us perhaps?

PS. When I had my cam and auxiliary belts changed last year, it cost me £750 or something like that?

I still have the old one, it's like new.

It would be about right I suppose labour wise, I spent 7 hours plodding at the job over a couple two days, including giving the rusty cooling water expansion tank bracket a few coats of paint.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Had my cam belt done a few months ago and was emphatically told by the mechanic who changes them for a living the pump is built for the life of the engine. The engine was on about 35k then. We've since put another 3k around France and the U.K., still running fine with no issues .Will I still feel the same in 5 years time when the belt falls due for renewal again .
I had the belt and front disc and pads replaced at the same time, circa £750.00, and a nice day out around Southampton in a courtesy car.
Mike.

 

[dunnah01]

I bet there's loads of businesses that would like to know what special bearings and seals Fiat use in the pump that lasts so much longer than anything else available
Changed the pump on the Smart car last week. Pretty much engine out to get access to do it and 4 bolts sheared

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[Landy Andy]

There are thousands of vehicles driving around with water pumps that are years and years old having done many thousands of miles. The recommendation to change cam belt driven water pumps is due to the fact IF they fail, they can kill an engine, or if start leaking, more involved job to change them. They don’t last less time than other water pumps necessarily, and often a quality OE part is swapped out for a cheap Chinese crap one, which I personally would have less faith in. In my daily drive the water pump has so far lasted 137 thousand miles, and 17 years.

 

[Barchetta47]

Original water pump, 21 years and 115k miles. You pays your money and takes your chance. Had the top end rebuilt after a cambelt failure, 102k, and the experienced mechanic was most insistent not to change the water pump, I was sceptical but went with his recommendation. So far pleased I did.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

I bet there's loads of businesses that would like to know what special bearings and seals Fiat use in the pump that lasts so much longer than anything else available
Changed the pump on the Smart car last week. Pretty much engine out to get access to do it and 4 bolts sheared

Sounds like a a full on tourettes day.
Mike.

 

[GreyVanMan]

SOME kit's do come with a water pump and some kits DO NOT!

IF your vehicle is Fiat Ducato based, the waterpump is expected to last the life of the engine and shouldn't need changing UNLESS something is obviously wrong with it.
This was told me by a Fiat Professional mechanic which I trust and my X250 2007 66000ml Ducato is still on its original one.

The kit for the cam belt comes with a replacement water pump as standard.

 

[GreyVanMan]

To answer your original question, you probably do have a claim. Main dealers are supposed to know more than a back street garage. I would shove in a sensible refund request on writing to the MD or CEO. If that fails, take it to small claims court.

Have already done the letter bit, suggesting I pay for 1hours diagnosis and requesting a refund of the remainder. The garage rebuffs the request. I'm here making sure I'm on the right track with claiming the diagnosis of the thermostat was wrong and I was billed for unnecessary work. I sent the letter to the manager of the branch, perhaps I ought to resend, this time to the CEO, as you suggest; it is a reasonably sized family chain.