Orion XS50 only giving 20amps …why ?

[Lenny HB]

Any equipment that attracts comments like this is in my opinion not fit for purpose.

My Schaudt WA 121545 just works - no silly messing about with upgrades.

The Schaudt does not have any connectivity so you haven't got a clue whats going on, and if you think that you had better ditch your phone/tablet/computer they all have updates that aren't always correct.

The Schaudt B2B is not fit for purpose to use with Lithium that's why I ditched mine in favour of a Victron.
The Schaudt unit when set to Lithium charges at a constant 14.4v regardless of the state of the battery, there are no absorption or float setting so you can't set it to stop charging once the battery is full. IMO Useless bit of kit.

 

[LostInSpace]

o just shunt information while you're looking at it. No source for the current. No history. So you arrive at your destination and it's 86% full, but you don't know that the B2B was under performing.

But the Schaudt WA121545 does not under perform, so I arrive at the destination with my batteries just as I expect.

Not sure what you mean by "No source for the current". The Energy Meter diplays the current all of the time.

 

[LostInSpace]

The Schaudt does not have any connectivity so you haven't got a clue whats going on

Of course I do, the NDS Energy Meter gives me all the information I need. (and more)

 

[LostInSpace]

The Schaudt unit when set to Lithium charges at a constant 14.4v regardless of the state of the battery, there are no absorption or float setting

Lithium does need an absorption phase. And my Sterling Power batteries deal with the float, if needed, whilst I am still driving.
And everything shuts down when I stop driving.

 

[LostInSpace]

and if you think that you had better ditch your phone/tablet/computer they all have updates that aren't always correct.

My phone makes phone calls and has never had an update.

I don't use a tablet and my computers are all still working very well. I don't let them update themselves.
Just for the none of other electronic equipment needs upgrades.

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[MarkHoughton]

LostInSpace , appreciate your engagement, but your comments are rather off-topic as I have all victron kit and want to get this sorted rather than go out and buy something else, plus rather limited options given I am over 250 miles from home and about to head into Europe for an extended trip. Cheers.

 

[Lenny HB]

Lithium does need an absorption phase. And my Sterling Power batteries deal with the float, if needed, whilst I am still driving.
And everything shuts down when I stop driving.

Actually it is advisably to have a short absorption phase where the charge current is reduced for the final phase of charging.

Relying on the Battery BMS to cut the charging is bad practice, the BMS is a last resort and should not be used like that.

 

[CueBall]

Actually it is advisably to have a short absorption phase where the charge current is reduced for the final phase of charging.

Relying on the Battery BMS to cut the charging is bad practice, the BMS is a last resort and should not be used like that

This is definitely true, all my Victron chargers (Solar / B2B / EHU) are all wirelessly linked via their wireless network so they aren't all fighting each other to do different things with the battery and its charge phases.

There are Bulk, Absorption, Float & Storage phases - each with different currents & voltages.

I installed my Orion XS 12/12 50A, along with everything else at the end of last year - I tend to see about 38A when driving if I have the fridge on 12V and about 45A if I don't - I've never actually seen 50A, but then again I haven't actually had the opportunity to take the 280aH battery down below about 60% SOC (shown on the Victron shunt) so this might be why.

I have a 2010 Ducato 3.0 which doesn't have a smart alternator - Was in two minds as to if to bring a D+ feed to the Orion's remote switch input, but, I assume, as I don't have a smart alternator the engine detection function seems to be working perfectly to date - It hasn't ever turned itself on when it wasn't supposed to and always shuts off within 20 seconds of turning the engine off.

 

[Lenny HB]

I have a 2010 Ducato 3.0 which doesn't have a smart alternator - Was in two minds as to if to bring a D+ feed to the Orion's remote switch input, but, I assume, as I don't have a smart alternator the engine detection function seems to be working perfectly to date - It hasn't ever turned itself on when it wasn't supposed to and always shuts off within 20 seconds of turning the engine off.

You need to be careful if you are using solar (or mains) to charge your starter battery as under charge it can reach a high enough voltage to trigger the B2B.
Always best to trigger using the D+.

 

[ChrisL]

If you're not using a D+ connection to start your B2B have a look at engine shut down detection and start voltage, the default is 14 volts which will throttle the output, reducing this to 13.1 volts should improve the output.
Watch this video by RogerIvy of Offgrid power solutions and use his suggested settings as a start point.

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[AdrianChen]

Just following up, and hope you're making progress with all you have going on....?

If you can it would be interesting to see your Orion's history screen (Prompted by Lenny HB comments). This is to see how many cycles the Orion went through during your journey, just in case there is a smart alternator, and the Orion is shutting down when the alternator is off during acceleration/cruising.

My van does not have a smart alternator, my last long trip (Chichester to Doncaster) was basically one cycle going through Bulk absorption float. Im guessing that if the Orion was stopping because of Lockout Voltage, it would show in the history as more than one cycle?

My question about the relay, and the voltages shown on the Victron Connect App for the Orions Input and Output voltages with the engine off, were to be sure the input and output voltages reflected the difference in your starter and leisure batteries, which at resting voltage should be around 12.6/7 for the starter, and 13.2/3 for the leisure.
With the engine running and assuming a non smart alternator they would be 14.X for the starter/input (if the battery is not pretty empty) and if the leisure battery was full, then 14.2 if in bulk/absorbtion (and 13.6 if in float). If the battery is full, when you start the engine the voltage should climb pretty quickly to the absorption setting, which should last 2hrs.

Another way to see this if you wired the relay for changeover would be that the CBE panel would show the starter battery voltage with the engine off, and the leisure battery voltage with the engine running ie both batteries on the panel would have the same voltage.

If you wired the relay as a simple cuttoff for the CBE SCR, then with the engine off you would get the starter battery voltage on the CBE panel, and when the engine is started, the panel would show 0v (or close to it) since your relay should have cut the supply to B1 and thus the panel.

If you have a smart alternator, the input voltage may stay quite low if the start battery is well charged say 12.5v for eg. If you were actually driving then when you brake the voltage could jumpt to 15v ish.

 

[MarkHoughton]

Hi AdrianChen , i have only just returned from the hospital with my sister-in-law so that she can get some rest (my brother is stable but still being tested/checked, his eldest son has arrived after a 2 hour drive and his youngest son is on his way with a 6 hour drive ), so have not had any opportunity to actually get inside the motorhome all day and now getting dark, cold and rainy. Will try and access the cycle logs and upload those shortly to see if it sheds any light.
Regards

 

[CueBall]

You need to be careful if you are using solar (or mains) to charge your starter battery as under charge it can reach a high enough voltage to trigger the B2B.
Always best to trigger using the D+.

I've either been accidentally clever or lucky - I have a Van-Bitz Battery Master as the only "charging/maintenance" connection for the starter battery, which as you know always keeps the starter battery at 0.5v (or a little more) below the leisure battery (plus only at 1A max). My EHU is standalone direct to leisure and my original Nord split charge was professionally disconnected by ApulJack.

With a little fiddling on the voltage settings through the Victron App, I seem to have found values which never trigger the B2B, but that happily make sure everything works as it should (another reason why apps do have their uses, when being able to set very specific values).

I will definitely be moving the B2B to a D+ signal for 100% assurance that it won't ever trigger though - Just as soon as it warms up outside, so my fingers have some feeling without gloves .

 

[MarkHoughton]

Attached is the cycle log does this help ?

 

[LostInSpace]

Relying on the Battery BMS to cut the charging is bad practice.

It works and I dont see loads of posts about Sterling Power, as I do with another make.

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[AdrianChen]

Attached is the cycle log does this help ?



View attachment 1011489

OK I'll have a look - the CSV file headings are not right, so I'll do an export and substitute mine.....

 

[AdrianChen]

Hi AdrianChen , i have only just returned from the hospital with my sister-in-law so that she can get some rest (my brother is stable but still being tested/checked, his eldest son has arrived after a 2 hour drive and his youngest son is on his way with a 6 hour drive ), so have not had any opportunity to actually get inside the motorhome all day and now getting dark, cold and rainy. Will try and access the cycle logs and upload those shortly to see if it sheds any light.
Regards

Best wishes for all your family......

 

[bigtwin]

And no Apps - just an NDS Energy Meter which also just works - and it has a nice physical dispplay.

My phone has a nice physical display. Are there any other types?

Ian

 

[AdrianChen]

My phone has a nice physical display. Are there any other types?

Ian

Yes mine has a rotary dial, and is far better/reliable than the complicated stuff which I don't really know anything about
.

 

[ChrisL]

It works and I dont see loads of posts about Sterling Power, as I do with another make.

Victron kit is configurable to suit several different battery types and different use cases, further, different Victron charge sources can communicate with each other over a Bluetooth network to optimise charging for the batteries, using all this functionality requires some research and education to understand how it works and how best to set it up, once it is setup it generally works flawlessly, it is rare for units to fail but Victron appear to be pretty good at supporting the odd one that does. If you're happy with your setup then that's great. I'm extremely happy with my Victron system, I initially had issues with my B2B not charging at the expected rate, but watching Rogers excellent videos helped me realise what setting was not optimised and once tweaked worked exactly as expected.

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[AdrianChen]

Attached is the cycle log does this help ?



View attachment 1011489

So the time for Bulk Absorb float on the data is for 7.5hrs, seems consistant with your screenshots/posts.

I guess you started the trip at 12.30 and finished at around 8ish. The Orion was in Bulk for 280mins and produced 89.5AH which is an average of 19amps. Then it went into absorption for 121mins producing a further 31.1ah which is an average of 15.5amps. Then float for 54mins producing no further output - your battery voltage went from 13.3v (at the point where the D+ triggered the Orion, so not the battery's' resting voltage) to 14.36v. There were no errors reported and the cycle completed in one go (although previous cycles were "interrupted" which I think the firmware update should resolve, or perhaps it has already happened between the previous cycle and this current one, cant now remember if 1.05 or 1.06 resolved some reporting issues caused by memory issues I think)

So 89.5+31.1=120.6AH of charge went into the battery plus any other users. I guess your starting figure of 260AH in the battery was from the Fogstar BMS? but if accurate then 40ah for the 300ah battery and 80ah for something else, more likely the fogstar bms was out of sync because of the storage time.

In any case the battery ended up at 14.3v, so probably full, and so it seems the Orion is working since it went through its cycle correctly.

So I think there is an issue with the wiring, or possibly the relay.... because it looks like something is lowering the effective output almost as if the original split charge is still in the system, so It would be good to check if the Orion works properly when there is no connection to b1, and the original SCR cannot possibly interfere......

The previous cycles show something odd, but I need to make a coffee.....

 

[AdrianChen]

Here are the headings I get from column A to P:

Cycle #

Bulk time (m)

Absorption time (m)

Recondition time (m)

Float time (m)

Storage time (m)

Bulk charge (Ah)

Absorption charge (Ah)

Recondition charge (Ah)

Float charge (Ah)

Storage charge (Ah)

Start voltage (V)

End voltage (V)

Battery Type

Termination reason

Error

custom

completed

#0 No error

 

[AdrianChen]

Hmm Ill try again with the data for cycle 0 inserted, last time I screwed up so Ill pop in a screen snip:

​

 

[LostInSpace]

I initially had issues with my B2B not charging at the expected rate,

I didn't. The Schaudt just worked as Hymer fitted it.

 

[ChrisL]

I didn't. The Schaudt just worked as Hymer fitted it.

Like I said, if you're happy that's great

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[LostInSpace]

My phone has a nice physical display. Are there any other types?

No, but you need the phone and extra significant addition of bluetooth. I do not.

As you say, I am happy, if only because there is one less thing to go wrong.

So it sounds like we are both happy. Other people can make up their own minds.

 

[AdrianChen]

Hmm Ill try again with the data for cycle 0 inserted, last time I screwed up so Ill pop in a screen snip:

View attachment 1011537

​

So your data showed some odd cycles where the system did not start in bulk, and some of the starting voltages were very low - This I think was a memory bug in the reporting part of the system. This was finally fixed in firmware v1.05, which was released in September last year, but perhaps you didn't update it then, it came with Connect version 6.09. The current update to v1.06 was released in Connect v6.12, and the current version (6.14) was released in late Jan 2025, all of these since 6.09 would update the XS to version 1.06, which I guess means that between your 3 quick journeys to the weighbridge,mot etc, and this trip you must have got v1.05, because the last cycle worked! The previous 6 cycles must have been 1.04 or earlier. So nothing needs doing although the update to V1.06 will be fine if you want to do it.

Leaving the low output....

 

[MarkHoughton]

Thanks for that analysis AdrianChen , checking the wiring is going to a fiddly job. I guess the main “query” part was the bypass/disabling of the SCR, which I hoped the relay would resolve. Although I purchased 2 at the time (they were a pair) the 2nd is sat at home and am not returning there for several weeks.
On the road Tuesday to my parents, so if weather is more favourable will get out and tinker. They only live 20 minutes away from Roger Ivy, I am tempted to give him a call in the morning and see if he could fit me in for a diagnostic check tomorrow or Wednesday.

 

[AdrianChen]

Good plan to call Roger Ivy!

I would try those simple tests - I mentioned. The first would just be readings of the XS input and output voltages using the Connect app perhaps first thing in the morning and before starting the engine. Should just see the start battery and leisure battery resting voltages if all off overnight (say 12.6 and 13.2ish). Then start the engine and see what happens..... At the same time if you wired the new relay as a changeover device the voltages should get very close on the CBE panel, and if wired as a cuttoff for the SCR then the CBE panel should go to 0v. If you find some time then assuming all ok Remove the connections on B1, so the XS is connected only to the start and leisure battery which will rule out the SCR interfering. If none of that helps, then there is possibly a wiring issue, or some secret B2B lurking somewhere you didn't know of. Though I think they used to mount them on the roof of the battery box, above the batts so you would have seen it.....

Roger in his workshop will have easier/quicker options, hopefully it will be something very simple!

 

[AdrianChen]

Good plan to call Roger Ivy!

I would try those simple tests - I mentioned. The first would just be readings of the XS input and output voltages using the Connect app perhaps first thing in the morning and before starting the engine. Should just see the start battery and leisure battery resting voltages if all off overnight (say 12.6 and 13.2ish). Then start the engine and see what happens..... At the same time if you wired the new relay as a changeover device the voltages should get very close on the CBE panel, and if wired as a cuttoff for the SCR then the CBE panel should go to 0v. If you find some time then assuming all ok Remove the connections on B1, so the XS is connected only to the start and leisure battery which will rule out the SCR interfering. If none of that helps, then there is possibly a wiring issue, or some secret B2B lurking somewhere you didn't know of. Though I think they used to mount them on the roof of the battery box, above the batts so you would have seen it.....

Roger in his workshop will have easier/quicker options, hopefully it will be something very simple!

P.S. be interested to see the cycle log after your next trip, hopefully there will be one entry per ignition on, and no errors!

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