My Ducato Clutch nightmare

[Nick's Ducato]

Bought a 2010 Ducato 2.3 multijet for conversion at 117,000 miles and ran with no problems to 124,000 miles.
Then first problem - clutch pedal - flat to floor, no clutch, no fluid loss. RAC and garage diagnosis Clutch master cylinder failure!
New master cylinder fitted, smooth pedal pressure on most of its travel restored, progressive clutch dis-engagement, purrrrfect!
50 mile later - pedal flat to floor, restored by vigorous pedal pumping - back to the garage to be re-bled.
Van returned, feels fine ..... for 15 miles!!!!! then starts to fail rapidly Manage to reach home, to be recovered by the RAC back to the garage.
Still no fluid loss. solution - Gearbox out to fit a New clutch and slave cylinder .... at great expense!
Van returned, feels fine for 120 miles, then suddenly pedal goes halfway to floor before picking up any hydraulic pressure.
This morning, barely enough pedal movement (about an inch) to dis-engage the clutch!!!!!
What else is there to renew?
What is going on?

 

[Guigsy]

Sounds like if you dodge the Comformatic bullet the manual clutch gremlins will get you?

Is this in part a non-use problem, ie are commercial users similarly afflicted?

I had a clutch issue in my previous 2007. I'm pretty sure it was due to lack of maintenance from previous owners. The fluid is the same circuit as the brakes. Brake fluid change probably only partially changes the stuff trapped in the clutch circuit. It is possible to flush it, but it's not easy.

I don't think panel vans doing commercial work would ever experience my problem because they'd be long dead before getting to 15 years old.

Generally though, I think the manual box is pretty reliable. Early x250s had issues with reverse (Comfortmatic too I think?), but that's long since been fixed.

 

[earthstrider]

Hi
The poster you quoted came on a then disappeared over 2 years ago so you will not get an answer from him. Hopefully someone else might reply.

It was a long shot but worth a try. Help please anyone!

 

[jongood]

Sounds like if you dodge the Comformatic bullet the manual clutch gremlins will get you?

Is this in part a non-use problem, ie are commercial users similarly afflicted?

You're never immune from problems but with a manual you can pull the pedal back up and carry on.

 

[jongood]

It was a long shot but worth a try. Help please anyone!

I take it you have checked fluid levels, then Check for leaks, if no leaks change master cylinder, if that doesn't work change slave, however SC might be inside the bell housing so not easy

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[jockaneezer]

Pop a piece of clean cardboard under the clutch housing and see if there's any oil on it overnight, that would indicate a knackered slave cylinder.

 

[L' Hobo]

It was a long shot but worth a try. Help please anyone!

When I purchased my 2007 X250 Ducato five years ago, after a while, the clutch pedal went to the floor a couple of times and had to be pulled up by hand.

I have a heavy marine engineering background where reliability is paramount, so I decided to investigate and bleed the clutch, this was when I discovered that it was not included in ANY Fiat service so the fluid was, possibly, over 13yrs old.

I soon discovered why it was not on any service schedule because one has to remove the air filter housing to get to the nipple (not the easiest job) I then connected my vacuum bleeder to the nipple and bleed.
The fluid was black, usually, not only a sign of old fluid but deteriorating rubber seals.

I found later that using the vacuum was a mistake and gravity bleeding should have been used.

Afterwards, I could not get not get any pressure on the pedal how ever much I tried until I used something I hadn't used for years. It's called back bleeding.

Connect a suringe of fluid to the nipple, get someone to compress the pedal and you force fluid in through the nipple.
It worked, but for how long I'm not sure because, with what appeared to be deteriorating seals, I changed the clutch and cylinders a few months later.
I've had no trouble since.

Hope this helps, good luck!

 

[gus-lopez]

You either have to reverse bleed it or allow gravity to do it over a long time.

On the Mark 6/7 transit front wheel drive the bleed nipple is easily accessible for the clutch.as long as the air is out from the slave to nipple pipe any air remaining will gravitate upwards past the master cylinder, which is on the clutch pedal & in to the reservoir. Basically self bleeds.
couple of hours & all is good

there's still probably stale fluid in the (shared system) clutch cylinders.

when the brakes are bled the clutch should be bled also.Any garage that doesn't does this I'd be asking why?

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

There will be an online video showing how to change the fluid. It can be a " ×%#$☆¿" of a job to do, I have that T shirt, but my clutch peddle had always felt heavy, as is now much lighter. P.S I did all the brakes at the same time.
Whether this is your issue I couldn't say, but a pot of DOT5 is cheap compared to the alternatives.
Mike.

 

[AdrianMontagu]

When I purchased my 2007 X250 Ducato five years ago, after a while, the clutch pedal went to the floor a couple of times and had to be pulled up by hand.

I have a heavy marine engineering background where reliability is paramount, so I decided to investigate and bleed the clutch, this was when I discovered that it was not included in ANY Fiat service so the fluid was, possibly, over 13yrs old.

I soon discovered why it was not on any service schedule because one has to remove the air filter housing to get to the nipple (not the easiest job) I then connected my vacuum bleeder to the nipple and bleed.
The fluid was black, usually, not only a sign of old fluid but deteriorating rubber seals.

I found later that using the vacuum was a mistake and gravity bleeding should have been used.

Afterwards, I could not get not get any pressure on the pedal how ever much I tried until I used something I hadn't used for years. It's called back bleeding.

Connect a suringe of fluid to the nipple, get someone to compress the pedal and you force fluid in through the nipple.
It worked, but for how long I'm not sure because, with what appeared to be deteriorating seals, I changed the clutch and cylinders a few months later.
I've had no trouble since.

Hope this helps, good luck!

Hi, we are currently in Spain and just suffered the dreaded clutch to floor problem. There seems to be a heat related factor here. After cooling down it returns to some semblance of normality.

I am shocked at the flimsiness of construction and the appalling methodology of the engineering.

Plastic master cylinder if my eyesite is correct. See pics. A clip to secure the pressure pipe? Is this correct?

No one seems to have a valid explanation of what the real cause of the problem is. However it is appalling that the fluid cannot be easily replaced. It is also appalling that the slave is located inside the bell housing.

I am hoping to limp home to the UK. Will NEVER buy or recommend a Fiat again.

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[L' Hobo]

Hi, we are currently in Spain and just suffered the dreaded clutch to floor problem. There seems to be a heat related factor here. After cooling down it returns to some semblance of normality.

I am shocked at the flimsiness of construction and the appalling methodology of the engineering.

Plastic master cylinder if my eyesite is correct. See pics. A clip to secure the pressure pipe? Is this correct?

No one seems to have a valid explanation of what the real cause of the problem is. However it is appalling that the fluid cannot be easily replaced. It is also appalling that the slave is located inside the bell housing.

I am hoping to limp home to the UK. Will NEVER buy or recommend a Fiat again.



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Although I have never encountered it, in the past there has been some posts saying, when vehicles are converted from LHD to right, the cylinder is directly inline with the heater outlet and gets blasted by hot air that boils the moisture in the clutch fluid.

From what I understand, the changing of clutch fluid does not appear on any service schedule so, unlike the brake fluid which gets changed on service, the clutch fluid does not!

It can be a tricky job, so I would take it to a very competent mechanic.

 

[dunnah01]

Hi, we are currently in Spain and just suffered the dreaded clutch to floor problem. There seems to be a heat related factor here. After cooling down it returns to some semblance of normality.

I am shocked at the flimsiness of construction and the appalling methodology of the engineering.

Plastic master cylinder if my eyesite is correct. See pics. A clip to secure the pressure pipe? Is this correct?

No one seems to have a valid explanation of what the real cause of the problem is. However it is appalling that the fluid cannot be easily replaced. It is also appalling that the slave is located inside the bell housing.

I am hoping to limp home to the UK. Will NEVER buy or recommend a Fiat again.



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View attachment 962100

View attachment 962101

Plastic cylinders and pre filled pipework that just clip together are common to most manufacturers nowadays, as are CSCs buried in the clutch bell-housing

 

[Wonders]

Good luck with limping home there do see to be cases where the problem holds off long enough to get home. From Spain is a tall order. Minimising the need to use the clutch will help .
I had my peddle go on my 2011 ducato and managed to self bleed it by pumping the peddle by hand when the engine was cold took 30 to 40 pumps to get it back.
Only managed to drive 250 miles before it went again on a French motorway peage when forced to stop.
I think it was the slave cylinder inside the clutch housing but had clutch slave and master cylinder replaced in France.
Good luck
Chris

 

[Baggydave]

Hi, we are currently in Spain and just suffered the dreaded clutch to floor problem. There seems to be a heat related factor here. After cooling down it returns to some semblance of normality.

I am shocked at the flimsiness of construction and the appalling methodology of the engineering.

Plastic master cylinder if my eyesite is correct. See pics. A clip to secure the pressure pipe? Is this correct?

No one seems to have a valid explanation of what the real cause of the problem is. However it is appalling that the fluid cannot be easily replaced. It is also appalling that the slave is located inside the bell housing.

I am hoping to limp home to the UK. Will NEVER buy or recommend a Fiat again.



View attachment 962099

View attachment 962100

View attachment 962101

Sorry to hear of your woes. When we had problems last year we cut our loses & just got the ferry back from Spain. Expensive I know but so much more relaxing than trying to drive through France with a van that’s less than good. I guess overall it cost an extra 300e over the cost of fuel & tolls etc we would have spent anyway. Simply for the peace of mind it was worth it too.

 

[Lenny HB]

It is also appalling that the slave is located inside the bell housing.

Nearly all vehicles are like that now, makes the clutch operation much more efficient.

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[Dutch 68]

Bought a 2010 Ducato 2.3 multijet for conversion at 117,000 miles and ran with no problems to 124,000 miles.
Then first problem - clutch pedal - flat to floor, no clutch, no fluid loss. RAC and garage diagnosis Clutch master cylinder failure!
New master cylinder fitted, smooth pedal pressure on most of its travel restored, progressive clutch dis-engagement, purrrrfect!
50 mile later - pedal flat to floor, restored by vigorous pedal pumping - back to the garage to be re-bled.
Van returned, feels fine ..... for 15 miles!!!!! then starts to fail rapidly Manage to reach home, to be recovered by the RAC back to the garage.
Still no fluid loss. solution - Gearbox out to fit a New clutch and slave cylinder .... at great expense!
Van returned, feels fine for 120 miles, then suddenly pedal goes halfway to floor before picking up any hydraulic pressure.
This morning, barely enough pedal movement (about an inch) to dis-engage the clutch!!!!!
What else is there to renew?
What is going on?

I would be tempted to switch garage, good luck with solving your problemsedit , I hope you solved it many years ago lol

 

[L' Hobo]

Nearly all vehicles are like that now, makes the clutch operation much more efficient.

And working on the clutch, much more expensive!

 

[gpat]

Sadly I don't know what the outcome was, thankfully I retired just as Ducato's arrived on the front line.
Most services have gone back over to Mercedes & that should tell us something?

If it had been a sprinter it wouldn't have been a problem, it would have been scrapped for rust issues by now.

 

[Googlebot]

If it had been a sprinter it wouldn't have been a problem, it would have been scrapped for rust issues by now.

We have just as many Merc issues as we have Fiat issues.

There isn’t much to choose between them.

 

[Guigsy]

We have just as many Merc issues as we have Fiat issues.

There isn’t much to choose between them.

Or you could have a Ford with injector issues and a chewed wet belt before it gets nicked... I agree that they all have issues.

Fiat probably have the biggest consideration to their base vehicles being used on motorhomes. But even to them, it's a minor market. We don't use them like the majority of their customers do (i.e. as works vans that get driven harder and frequently with far less mods to the electrics). Overall, the Ducato isn't too bad as a motorhome base.

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[Lenny HB]

We have just as many Merc issues as we have Fiat issues.

There isn’t much to choose between them.

Commercial vans designed to be thrashed for 3 years then binned.
Not designed for sitting around doing sod all, this is what causes most of the problems.

 

[BusyBuilder]

When our clutch did same, I just hooked it back up with my foot, needed a new clutch eventually

 

[steve69]

I have heard stories of a bungy being tied to the pedal at one end and hooked onto the dashboard at the other. Substitute return spring maybe.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

I have heard stories of a bungy being tied to the pedal at one end and hooked onto the dashboard at the other. Substitute return spring maybe.

Sounds like something out of the Flintstones, yabba dabba doo.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Although I have never encountered it, in the past there has been some posts saying, when vehicles are converted from LHD to right, the cylinder is directly inline with the heater outlet and gets blasted by hot air that boils the moisture in the clutch fluid.

From what I understand, the changing of clutch fluid does not appear on any service schedule so, unlike the brake fluid which gets changed on service, the clutch fluid does not!

It can be a tricky job, so I would take it to a very competent mechanic.

Thinking about your post, I along with many other R/H drive owners have carried out remedial work to the drivers side heater outlet up behind lower dash panel, lengthening the outlet, and changing it's direction to actually get some heat onto our cold tootsies. It would be interesting if anyone has done the same, and still had a problem with the clutch peddle. In our van I could never describe the heat on the drivers side as blasting out, though the modification makes it, just about bearable.
Mike.