My Ducato Clutch nightmare (1 Viewer)

[Nick's Ducato]

Bought a 2010 Ducato 2.3 multijet for conversion at 117,000 miles and ran with no problems to 124,000 miles.
Then first problem - clutch pedal - flat to floor, no clutch, no fluid loss. RAC and garage diagnosis Clutch master cylinder failure!
New master cylinder fitted, smooth pedal pressure on most of its travel restored, progressive clutch dis-engagement, purrrrfect!
50 mile later - pedal flat to floor, restored by vigorous pedal pumping - back to the garage to be re-bled.
Van returned, feels fine ..... for 15 miles!!!!! then starts to fail rapidly Manage to reach home, to be recovered by the RAC back to the garage.
Still no fluid loss. solution - Gearbox out to fit a New clutch and slave cylinder .... at great expense!
Van returned, feels fine for 120 miles, then suddenly pedal goes halfway to floor before picking up any hydraulic pressure.
This morning, barely enough pedal movement (about an inch) to dis-engage the clutch!!!!!
What else is there to renew?
What is going on?

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

The latest - The Ducato is now back and working for the moment. The garage tell me they conducted a pressure test on the pipe between master and slave cylinder, at a much higher pressure than would be exerted by the master cylinder, which it passed, But they then found a damaged "O" ring on the connection to the slave cylinder. The pitting was minute, the mechanics were puzzled that it should have withstood the pressure test, unless it was working like a valve, letting air in, but closing under pressure!

To be fair to the garage, they do admit this problem has them puzzled, they are less than confident it is fully resolved and all the extra work has been done under warranty.

My next concern is that I now have a full 2 inches of free travel on the clutch pedal, I'm sure it was not as much as that before, what should it be?

Sounds like that old adage about " for want of a hapenth of tar the ship was lost" . On the second return to the workshop EVERY seal in the system should have been replaced as a matter of course, just to rule out the exact problem that has now come to light!!
Reverse bleeding is sometimes the only reliable way of getting a good usable peddle, I've had it many times on motorcycles, but of course much easier to do on them.
Mike.

 

[Vipar]

This happened on my Boxer when I left it in gear chocking the wheels, and leaving the brakes off. Now I leave it out of gear and the wheels chocked, it has not reoccurred

It doesn’t seem to be logical. As I have not had problems anymore, who cares?

 

[BusyBuilder]

My Ducato has suffered the same problem clutch sticking to floor and me pulling it back up my toe, even after pumping the pedal, it kept doing it, even getting a gear was trouble as they were then starting to grind or even not engaging.
Went in to garage on Monday, they think new clutch, I hope its fixed when it comes back, the van has done 43,000 miles and 2012 model.

 

[runnerdad]

My Ducato clutch nightmare continues! Total clutch failure after 2700miles meant that after driving from south Devon to Newport south Wales and stopping, before pulling away with a fully depressed clutch it was impossible to engage gear with the engine running. By engaging gear whilst stationary and then starting engine it was possible to park the MH on its pitch. After finding the nearest authorised garage who would accept the vehicle 160 miles away in Plymouth it was transported to Vospers Comercial in Plymouth who were the only agents who have been of any help at all and that includes the retailers in Wellington who advised me it was a Fiat customer Services problem and to “call them” , as it would be two months before anyone could even look at it.
Vospers advised me that the advice from Fiat was that a new Cluth would be required and that it would be with them by Tuesday 25th May. To expedite the repair I was advised on the 24th the gearbox and clutch had been removed and that a bolt had “dropped out of the slave cylinder” and that was the problem. You may or may not be surprised that the part has not yet arrived and that the anticipated date is Tuesday 1st June. Currently I am also awaiting any advice on the date for the replacements of recalled steering Knuckles. All in all it can only be described as a totall shambles of customer service and care. Ask me if I would ever have anything to do with either Fiat or the retailer again and the answer would be NEVER!
bye the way you might be excused in thinking that my diatribe started with a typo, 270000 miles surely?
No it was not a typo the vehicle has travelled two thousand seven hundred miles!

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[runnerdad]

hi Andrew I have also clutch problem . 4600 miles no clutch pedal on the floor and fluid coming out of gearbox . vans two and half years old . so so . disappointed its been two and half years of sorting out this vans warranty . i am just at the end for me . need fiat to do the correct thing fix it . its back at the dealers just waiting around for news . your not on your own best wishes good luck with your van .

 

[TheBig1]

I know of a couple of cases of the clutch pedal itself failing on ducatos. Who in their right mind thought a plastic pedal was a good idea? Pedal goes flat to the floor and eventually stays there. No fluid lost, it is just the pedal not operating the pushrod to the master cylinder

 

[Raul]

I know of a couple of cases of the clutch pedal itself failing on ducatos. Who in their right mind thought a plastic pedal was a good idea? Pedal goes flat to the floor and eventually stays there. No fluid lost, it is just the pedal not operating the pushrod to the master cylinder

Same as quashqai. You can pull the pedal back up, then push down at a angle to work. Rubbish parts.

 

[arty23]

My clutch went flat to the floor at a roundabout in York. After about five minutes I was able to pull it up and move the vehicle off the main road . We called the recovery and told them what had happened but as we were only a mile from the site they suggested we tried to get there and ring them before the end of our stay.
The clutch stayed up until we were nearly there but started to stick as we entered the site.When the recovery man arrived he said this was happening to many motorhomes which had not been used as much as normal and to keep pressing it up and down. The clutch was perfect for the next 12 months I owned the vehicle.

 

[jongood]

My clutch went flat to the floor at a roundabout in York. After about five minutes I was able to pull it up and move the vehicle off the main road . We called the recovery and told them what had happened but as we were only a mile from the site they suggested we tried to get there and ring them before the end of our stay.
The clutch stayed up until we were nearly there but started to stick as we entered the site.When the recovery man arrived he said this was happening to many motorhomes which had not been used as much as normal and to keep pressing it up and down. The clutch was perfect for the next 12 months I owned the vehicle.

Still a problem but the big difference here is that generally a bit of pumping and you can get them to move and either get it home or to a garage. Comfortmatic would be going nowhere.

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[dunnah01]

Still a problem but the big difference here is that generally a bit of pumping and you can get them to move and either get it home or to a garage. Comfortmatic would be going nowhere.

Although with MES the Comfortmatic can limp home like any manual and is brilliant once you set it up properly, way better than any manual clog dancer

 

[L' Hobo]

Sounds like that old adage about " for want of a hapenth of tar the ship was lost" . On the second return to the workshop EVERY seal in the system should have been replaced as a matter of course, just to rule out the exact problem that has now come to light!!
Reverse bleeding is sometimes the only reliable way of getting a good usable peddle, I've had it many times on motorcycles, but of course much easier to do on them.
Mike.

When I bought my second hand 2007 Ducato a few years ago, I checked and changed ALL the fluids so that I had a reliable starting point. I especially concentrated on the clutch fluid as it is not part of ANY Fiat service schedule?

It was black! I changed it, along with the brake fluid, but as a consequence had no brake pedal.
I had to do a reverse bleed of the system before the pedal was restored.
I later replaced the clutch and both cylinders as the blackness is, sometimes, a sign that the cylinder rubbers are breaking down? (I HATE unreliability) I have now driven 12000 miles without any problems.

After speaking to an old, long serving, AA friend of mine, he said that he was having to do this more and more times since the introduction of the bellows type clutch cylinder.

Might be worth a try? Good luck to the OP!

 

[chatteris]

we had a saab in for a clutch change and it was a nightmare to bleed because the bleed point was halfway along the pipe and although it felt ok after the first bleed after a few hours the pedal went to the floor,after bleeding it again all seemed ok again till next morning when it was nearly to the floor again so bled it again and it was ok after that. i think you just have to leave it for the air to eventually leave the slave cylinder and rise up the pipe to where the bleed point is

 

[L' Hobo]

When I bought my second hand 2007 Ducato a few years ago, I checked and changed ALL the fluids so that I had a reliable starting point. I especially concentrated on the clutch fluid as it is not part of ANY Fiat service schedule?

It was black! I changed it, along with the brake fluid, but as a consequence had no brake pedal.
I had to do a reverse bleed of the system before the pedal was restored.
I later replaced the clutch and both cylinders as the blackness is, sometimes, a sign that the cylinder rubbers are breaking down? (I HATE unreliability) I have now driven 12000 miles without any problems.

After speaking to an old, long serving, AA friend of mine, he said that he was having to do this more and more times since the introduction of the bellows type clutch cylinder.

Might be worth a try? Good luck to the OP!

Correction: just reread the above and the line 'It was black! I changed it, along with the brake fluid but as a consequence had no BRAKE pedal' that should have read, ' had no CLUTCH pedal'

Yet another senior moment.

 

[ivorantony]

Having read the original OP question and stating no fluid loss I would have thrown back the new master cylinder under warranty, over the years in the motor trade I have had a few new master and slaves failures, and in this case the master would be the easiest one to replace first,
the concentric slave cylinder in the bell housing also have been known to jam so causing the clutch pedal to not return, A pipe is a pipe! with no mechanical damage or seal problems it’s unlikely to be the problem,

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[Guigsy]

On my 2007 Ducato, we were taking it on a long tour of Europe. So I got a thorough service and the brake fluid flushed. It was pretty manky. I drove it on the trip for several months and a few thousand miles without issues, including several trips over mountains.

On a Friday late afternoon, we were doing a pass from Switzerland into France. It was raining hard and turning to sleet, so we had the heater maxed out and I was doing a lot of shifts to 2nd gear for the hairpins and probably running it quite hard to keep momentum up. The clutch became slow to return. I could pump it and then pull it up and it'd be OK for a bit, then it'd go slow again. So rather than get stuck somewhere inconvenient, we found a remote campsite that we had pretty much to ourselves and ended up waiting until Monday for a recovery truck.

When the garage inspected it, they couldn't find any issues. It was working fine. The best explanation the mechanic could give (between his mediocre English, my terrible French and Google Translate not being great at technical phrases), was that the heater outlet is right next to the master cylinder. Maybe with all the work and the blower on full blast, it overheated? He accused me of riding the clutch too much, we disagreed on that. Anyway, I babied it a bit for the rest of the trip, but had no further issues.

I had the hydraulic fluid checked when I got home and it appeared fine. They said that they can flush the brake fluid. But the lines that service the clutch can't really be flushed without taking it all to bits. So there might have still been some really old fluid trapped in the clutch cylinders at either end. That boiled the trapped moisture when it was worked hard at altitude? That was their best guess. No other issues for the next 2 years when I sold it.

 

[L' Hobo]

On my 2007 Ducato, we were taking it on a long tour of Europe. So I got a thorough service and the brake fluid flushed. It was pretty manky. I drove it on the trip for several months and a few thousand miles without issues, including several trips over mountains.

On a Friday late afternoon, we were doing a pass from Switzerland into France. It was raining hard and turning to sleet, so we had the heater maxed out and I was doing a lot of shifts to 2nd gear for the hairpins and probably running it quite hard to keep momentum up. The clutch became slow to return. I could pump it and then pull it up and it'd be OK for a bit, then it'd go slow again. So rather than get stuck somewhere inconvenient, we found a remote campsite that we had pretty much to ourselves and ended up waiting until Monday for a recovery truck.

When the garage inspected it, they couldn't find any issues. It was working fine. The best explanation the mechanic could give (between his mediocre English, my terrible French and Google Translate not being great at technical phrases), was that the heater outlet is right next to the master cylinder. Maybe with all the work and the blower on full blast, it overheated? He accused me of riding the clutch too much, we disagreed on that. Anyway, I babied it a bit for the rest of the trip, but had no further issues.

I had the hydraulic fluid checked when I got home and it appeared fine. They said that they can flush the brake fluid. But the lines that service the clutch can't really be flushed without taking it all to bits. So there might have still been some really old fluid trapped in the clutch cylinders at either end. That boiled the trapped moisture when it was worked hard at altitude? That was their best guess. No other issues for the next 2 years when I sold it.

As stated above, clutch fluid can be flushed but it is a pain removing air filter etc. with problems getting a clutch after so most mechanics avoid it if possible!
You either have to reverse bleed it or allow gravity to do it over a long time.

 

[Landy Andy]

Just use a vacuum pump on the slave cylinder.

 

[L' Hobo]

Just use a vacuum pump on the slave cylinder.

Apparently the last thing you want to use as it can distort seals? But what do I know?

 

[Guigsy]

So it sounds like it's the case that even if you have the hydraulic fluid changed when you have the brakes flushed, there's still probably stale fluid in the (shared system) clutch cylinders.

I've also heard that the master cylinder on right hand drive vehicles gets lightly cooked by the ankle level heater vents. But there's more distance on left hand drive vehicles.

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[dennism]

Thanks Grummyb, Following the first failure after replacing the master cylinder, I suggested to the garage it could be faulty and they replied as you, possible but unlikely!
My next option does seem to try replacing the pipes. There is nothing else, is there.
It is so frustrating, after 60 years of doing my own repairs, thought it might be safer to use the services of my local garage

 

[dennism]

Thanks Grummyb, Following the first failure after replacing the master cylinder, I suggested to the garage it could be faulty and they replied as you, possible but unlikely!
My next option does seem to try replacing the pipes. There is nothing else, is there.
It is so frustrating, after 60 years of doing my own repairs, thought it might be safer to use the services of my local garage

I had a similar problem in a Vw Tiguan . Turned out to be a misaligned slave cylinder it was twisting when pressed and pulling air on the return stroke

 

[Two Owl Ones]

the fiat have always needed regular fettling, as far back as i can remember fiat stood for ( Fix It Again Tomorrow).. if the peddle is goin flat its losing pressure/fluid somwhere,if there is no weeping or leak it must be a faulty clutch master cylinder,seals maybe suspect check the colour of the fluid in the resevoir,you should have had fresh fluid put it when it was repaired.

 

[tony_g]

Purely for the purpose of 'balance', I should report Mercedes are not immune from clutch problems!
About 14 years ago, before I retired, I had the very great displeasure to be given a Mercedes A class as a short term company car. It had the amusing trick of seemingly sucking the clutch pedal flat to the floor and immoveable at any random moment, rendering it undriveable. On one especially memorable occasion, this happened about a car length from the notorious Fiveways roundabout on Birmingham Queensway, on a dark rainy evening, at the height of the rush hour, in the outside lane. How I chuckled!
By then, I had learned that there was no quick fix other than to turn off the engine, lock it up and leave it for around 30 minutes. I hopped out and lurked in the shadows at the side of the road and waited it out. No one took any notice, the constabulary were notable for their absence and I jumped back aboard and duly escaped after half an hour.
My new car was delivered soon after. The horrible A Class went back to 'pool' duty and I never could find out what the cause of the fault was.

 

[steve69]

another vote for the toe under the pedal trick. only occasionally have I needed to do this over the last 3 years since it started to happen

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[earthstrider]

That was the beginning of my troubles. Pedal sticking part down. I drove for a few miles using the toe under pedal method, until the pedal went flat to the floor and I could not put my toe under it. Could not even find the pedal!! That was a very un-nerving experience in heavy traffic.

how did you get it fixed? What was the problem? I managed to limp home yesterday from Dover having driven from Italy. Had to do the ‘pulling pedal up with toe’ trick all the way. However, at a busy roundabout the pedal was on the floor and I couldn’t find it (just like you). Wife had to scramble down into the well and pull it up by hand two or three times before I could pump it and get a gear. God knows what any onlooker would have thought! Anyway, I got home with regular use of toe but the van is now sat out side my home with me wondering what to do. Please let me know how you sorted yours out and an idea of what it cost you, thanks.

 

[enark]

Guess in fairness, its done 124k…

 

[Riverbankannie]

how did you get it fixed? What was the problem? I managed to limp home yesterday from Dover having driven from Italy. Had to do the ‘pulling pedal up with toe’ trick all the way. However, at a busy roundabout the pedal was on the floor and I couldn’t find it (just like you). Wife had to scramble down into the well and pull it up by hand two or three times before I could pump it and get a gear. God knows what any onlooker would have thought! Anyway, I got home with regular use of toe but the van is now sat out side my home with me wondering what to do. Please let me know how you sorted yours out and an idea of what it cost you, thanks.

Hi
The poster you quoted came on a then disappeared over 2 years ago so you will not get an answer from him. Hopefully someone else might reply.

 

[sonny]

check to see if the master cylinder is activated by the clutch pedal

 

[WASPES]

how did you get it fixed? What was the problem? I managed to limp home yesterday from Dover having driven from Italy. Had to do the ‘pulling pedal up with toe’ trick all the way. However, at a busy roundabout the pedal was on the floor and I couldn’t find it (just like you). Wife had to scramble down into the well and pull it up by hand two or three times before I could pump it and get a gear. God knows what any onlooker would have thought! Anyway, I got home with regular use of toe but the van is now sat out side my home with me wondering what to do. Please let me know how you sorted yours out and an idea of what it cost you, thanks.

Mine went back in February down to the floor garage said either master or slave cylinder gone. Went for cheapest fix first but pedal still going to the floor so had to take gearbox out to fix slave cylinder and new clutch and all the gubbins that go with it. Not a cheap job.

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[PaulW2]

Sounds like if you dodge the Comformatic bullet the manual clutch gremlins will get you?

Is this in part a non-use problem, ie are commercial users similarly afflicted?