Motorway speed limits reduced.

[PeteH]

I don't know the answer to those questions. But I suspect the people running this would have thought of all this... I would guess that they had installed the sensors 2+ years ago to get a baseline over 2 years at least.

The basics of any experiment is that you use the same sensors (calibrated) in the same location for a period of time to establish a baseline. Then you run the experiment by changing only one variable. As the things like date and day won't be the same for example 1Dec will be wed one year then thur another you have to allow for this. You also can't rely on absolutely the same number of cars passing on each day at the same time each year there is a number of statistical analytics that need to be done. This would allow for changes due to Covid as well. The stats will be done over a full year to allow for seasonal changes, accidents and much more.

The planning for these experiments won't have been done overnight and they will have tried to allow for as many confounders and variables as possible.

And of course they will have factored in the effects of lockdown? Which will naturally have taken the overall statistic down. How very convenient?. The only true result would have been comparisons of years where traffic volumes where the same lockdown will have artificially skewed the current year. And traffic is still not back to pre lockdown levels. Making any assessment fraudulent.

 

[Gromett]

And of course they will have factored in the effects of lockdown? Which will naturally have taken the overall statistic down. How very convenient?. The only true result would have been comparisons of years where traffic volumes where the same lockdown will have artificially skewed the current year. And traffic is still not back to pre lockdown levels. Making any assessment fraudulent.

I am not sure if you have any background in statistics or science? But it is possible to say if X volume of traffic produces Y quantity of NOx emissions at 70mph then you can extrapolate X volume of traffic produces Y quantity of NOx emissions at 60mph even if the value of X changes.

Even at the most simplest of levels.. If you had 100 units of NOx last year at 70mph and this year you had 80% of the traffic. You could reduce the initial setting to 80% giving 80 units of NOx as the source comparison. It's not as simple as that of course. But it is not beyond the capabilities of scientist to allow for variations in key factors.

 

[PeteH]

I am not sure if you have any background in statistics or science? But it is possible to say if X volume of traffic produces Y quantity of NOx emissions at 70mph then you can extrapolate X volume of traffic produces Y quantity of NOx emissions at 60mph even if the value of X changes.

Even at the most simplest of levels.. If you had 100 units of NOx last year at 70mph and this year you had 80% of the traffic. You could reduce the initial setting to 80% giving 80 units of NOx as the source comparison. It's not as simple as that of course. But it is not beyond the capabilities of scientist to allow for variations in key factors.

And like Tony Blair. Nicely skew the scientists figures to go into an illegal war?. No they would not do that.? Would they?

Grom. I am a cynic of the highest order. If government advisers say white, I know it's black!

But what do I know?. I'm only on my third hobgoblin. And looking at the fourth.

 

[Ivory55]

You’re right if a politician backs something you know that there is something in it for them, tony Blair prime example

 

[Gromett]

And like Tony Blair. Nicely skew the scientists figures to go into an illegal war?. No they would not do that.? Would they?

Grom. I am a cynic of the highest order. If government advisers say white, I know it's black!

But what do I know?. I'm only on my third hobgoblin. And looking at the fourth.

There is a difference between a government advisor and a scientist. What you just did there is technically called a false equivalence and is a logical fallacy. Not a good way to try and win a debate

I am a sceptic and have a pretty good nose for false facts hence my fact checking on this thread and others. I don't just take peoples word for things.

Science done properly does not care what you believe, it does not have an opinion or a bias it just simple states the best known facts at the time. Science doesn't mind being wrong and updates it's position based on the facts.

The current experiment is part of the standard scientific method of getting to the truth. What politician do with that truth after the fact has nothing to do with science nor the scientists concerned.

Please watch this. It is only 60 seconds.



First you guess. In this case the guess was that lowering the speed by 10 miles an hour will reduce NOx.
Then you compute the consequences of the guess, That was done here. https://www.eea.europa.eu/themes/transport/speed-limits-fuel-consumption-and using simulation.
Then you experiment to see if the real world agrees with your guess and computations. which is where we are at now.

The full lecture by Professor Feynman is available on youtube and is worth a watch.

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[Boris7]

The speed limit will be cut on parts of four motorways before October in a trial to reduce pollution, Highways England has said

From the same Prime Minster who recently bought himself a plane

 

[PeteH]

There is a difference between a government advisor and a scientist. What you just did there is technically called a false equivalence and is a logical fallacy. Not a good way to try and win a debate

I am a sceptic and have a pretty good nose for false facts hence my fact checking on this thread and others. I don't just take peoples word for things.

Science done properly does not care what you believe, it does not have an opinion or a bias it just simple states the best known facts at the time. Science doesn't mind being wrong and updates it's position based on the facts.

The current experiment is part of the standard scientific method of getting to the truth. What politician do with that truth after the fact has nothing to do with science nor the scientists concerned.

Please watch this. It is only 60 seconds.



First you guess. In this case the guess was that lowering the speed by 10 miles an hour will reduce NOx.
Then you compute the consequences of the guess, That was done here. https://www.eea.europa.eu/themes/transport/speed-limits-fuel-consumption-and using simulation.
Then you experiment to see if the real world agrees with your guess and computations. which is where we are at now.

The full lecture by Professor Feynman is available on youtube and is worth a watch.

Far too late for that. I am now just opening no 5. and I have yet to bbq?. What I do know. Is that anything will end up costing me more I taxation one way or another. The fast is just politicians making the gravy tran go faster. Sorry for spelling but I am now half pissed an will withdraw

 

[steve 6644]

Not far behind and compounded by being exhausted (knackered). Gromet that was so up my street

 

[DIY campervan]

From BBC news;


The speed limit will be cut on parts of four motorways before October in a trial to reduce pollution, Highways England has said.

It will be reduced from 70mph to 60mph in areas that have seen higher than recommended levels of nitrogen dioxide.

The trial will take place on stretches of nearly five miles.

It will be on M6 junctions 6 to 7 by Witton, M1 junctions 33 to 34 by Rotherham, M602 junctions 1 to 3 by Eccles and M5 1 to 2 by Oldbury.

Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) released from car exhausts is a serious air pollutant and indirectly contributes to the warming of the planet.

The impact of the new 60mph limit will be reviewed in a year's time

Ivan Le Fevre, head of environment at Highways England said: "Ultimately the air quality challenge will be solved 'at the tailpipe' by vehicle manufacturers and changes in vehicle use.

"Until this happens we will continue our extensive programme of pioneering research and solutions."

The Department for Transport said the trial was among a number of measures to improve air quality.

As part of a plan to bring down NO2 levels, the government aims to end the sale of all new conventional petrol and diesel cars and vans before 2040.

It has been consulting on bringing this forward to 2035, or earlier if a faster transition appears feasible, as well as looking at including hybrids for the first time.

The consultation's outcome will be announced at a later date.


Now the above is probably not going to affect the majority of people driving Motorhomes, but imagine you've just bought an EV or Hybrid then get told you can't do more than 60 mph to reduce pollution !

Or maybe there is more to it then at first glance, perhaps there will be a way "found" to let non fossil fuel vehicles go faster, hence more people buy them and maybe imported EVs have a large tariff put on them ? Therefore Nissan or others have to build EVs in the UK to supply the demand ? Or maybe I am assigning to much intelligence to the Gov ?

What a load of tosh. The faster the vehicle the higher the wind resistance, the more fuel you use thus more pollution. If its head wind then you gain nothing At 60mph. If its back wind 70-80mph wont make anymore pollution so 70 is a good compromise and low and behold thats what it use to be! Tampering with our freedom of movement is getting extremely annoying.

 

[gus-lopez]

I am not sure if you have any background in statistics or science? But it is possible to say if X volume of traffic produces Y quantity of NOx emissions at 70mph then you can extrapolate X volume of traffic produces Y quantity of NOx emissions at 60mph even if the value of X changes.

Yes we all know how it can be done but it isn't acceptable. It should be a straight measurement without any possibility of cooking the books. It has to be completely open & understandable to the most stpid of people so there is no possibility of massaging the figures being complained about.

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[EMS]

A research monitoring for air pollution in a Scottish city found that during the Covid lockdown when road traffic dropped significantly there was no reduction in air pollution!
So there must be a significant other source for this pollution.
In Southampton city it is mainly the large ships in the port that have to run their engines to provide power for the ships equipment.
This can also be seen as many of the cruise ships a moored near to the Dorset coast and one can see the sips emissions as haze on the horizon.

 

[Mikecarruthers]

If you look a the other side of the coin let’s say that we push the Electric power where is the government going to get the loss of revenues from the sale of petrol and Diesel where are the Millions of people who are employed in the service and repair industry going to work as they will be made redundant where will all the money come from for the NHS the schools Denmark is all ready having that problem they have 10 billion deficits in there budgets this year and they are only a small country so what will,happen here? And did you know that a hybrid car emissions are not a testable item for MOT so a,badly running engine in one of these vehicles can pass,a test and still be allowed on the road ??? Some cars, like the Prius that I have tested, I have checked the emissions to see and my 2008 Citroen diesel puts out Less emissions also what about tyres they contribute far more to the pollution levels than some Diesels on the road

 

[DIY campervan]

A research monitoring for air pollution in a Scottish city found that during the Covid lockdown when road traffic dropped significantly there was no reduction in air pollution!
So there must be a significant other source for this pollution.
In Southampton city it is mainly the large ships in the port that have to run their engines to provide power for the ships equipment.
This can also be seen as many of the cruise ships a moored near to the Dorset coast and one can see the sips emissions as haze on the horizon.

The seven largest ships in the world equate to more pollution than all the cars in the world. Regulate them first!

 

[Ivory55]

The seven largest ships in the world equate to more pollution than all the cars in the world. Regulate them first!

Ah yes but who owns them, people with big money. It’s easier to pick on little people as they don’t have money or clout.

 

[The Lobster]

It's the lorries and motorhomes doing the polluting

Actually it's the SUVs. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...iggest-cause-of-emissions-rise-figures-reveal

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[PeteH]

The seven largest ships in the world equate to more pollution than all the cars in the world. Regulate them first!

OK. so we do that, How do you propose to move the Billions of tons of "necessities" you and yours need to survive in the modern world. There is a finite limit to the repatriation of producing goods to each and every country that needs them. In terms of movement of Freight, the most efficient in terms of £ per Kg. IS shipping. Less necessary perhaps are "Cruise Ships".

Over time Shipping has become cleaner per mile travelled than many other forms of transport. But be my guest Sink all the ships. And then see how long it is before the country devolves into anarchy, as essential imports dry up.

 

[63720]

If you look a the other side of the coin let’s say that we push the Electric power where is the government going to get the loss of revenues from the sale of petrol and Diesel where are the Millions of people who are employed in the service and repair industry going to work as they will be made redundant where will all the money come from for the NHS the schools Denmark is all ready having that problem they have 10 billion deficits in there budgets this year and they are only a small country so what will,happen here? And did you know that a hybrid car emissions are not a testable item for MOT so a,badly running engine in one of these vehicles can pass,a test and still be allowed on the road ??? Some cars, like the Prius that I have tested, I have checked the emissions to see and my 2008 Citroen diesel puts out Less emissions also what about tyres they contribute far more to the pollution levels than some Diesels on the road

They'll put the price of electricity up to reclaim the losses, nothing is free.

 

[PaddyM]

Its a revenue raising scam .

 

[tonyidle]

I couldn't get into 4th in mine

I can't think of any "normal" car that won't pull top gear at 50mph? Most cars will hold a steady 40mph in top.

 

[tonyidle]

Surely commuting is part and parcel of a thriving economy.

It is but it should be minimised. Until recently no serious attempt was made by most companies to encourage working from home or to make best use of available technology to reduce face-to-face meetings. A friends daughter works for a large International company. She has been in the UK, Amsterdam, and New York in the same week.

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[tonyidle]

Why would any motorhomer be concerned about this reduction in motorway speed limits. I thought the idea of a motorhome was to chill out and drive at a leisurely pace - in my case 50 to 60 mph - and enjoy the scenery.

On the subject of killing the planet:
"In the year 2525", if man is still alive etc.
written 50 years ago, so nothings changed.

There is no scenery on motorways.

 

[Gromett]

Yes we all know how it can be done but it isn't acceptable. It should be a straight measurement without any possibility of cooking the books. It has to be completely open & understandable to the most stpid of people so there is no possibility of massaging the figures being complained about.

You are having a laugh aren't you? That is not how science is done. It is not even possible,

The 6th of Sept 2019 cannot be compared to the 6th of Sept 2020 because one is a friday and the other is a sunday.
We cannot directly compare 4pm last year to 4pm this year because there was an accident that closed the carriageway for 4 hours.
Last year there was sporting event that won't happen again this year.
This year there was a strike at a factory nearby and no trucks ran to it.

Need I go on.

Averages are used, correction to data are made to allow for known factors etc etc. This is how science has to work in the real world. Precise experiments with accurate measurements don't even happen in the most accurate of physics experiments under controlled environments.

 

[Gromett]

A research monitoring for air pollution in a Scottish city found that during the Covid lockdown when road traffic dropped significantly there was no reduction in air pollution!

I would be interested in knowing more about this. Do you have a link?

 

[Gromett]

If you look a the other side of the coin let’s say that we push the Electric power where is the government going to get the loss of revenues from the sale of petrol and Diesel where are the Millions of people who are employed in the service and repair industry going to work as they will be made redundant where will all the money come from for the NHS the schools Denmark is all ready having that problem they have 10 billion deficits in there budgets this year and they are only a small country so what will,happen here? And did you know that a hybrid car emissions are not a testable item for MOT so a,badly running engine in one of these vehicles can pass,a test and still be allowed on the road ??? Some cars, like the Prius that I have tested, I have checked the emissions to see and my 2008 Citroen diesel puts out Less emissions also what about tyres they contribute far more to the pollution levels than some Diesels on the road

Do you think the government will struggle to find a way to raise tax revenue?

Should we roll back the industrial revolution because of all the land workers it put out of work.
How about let's scrap computers because it will put all the typists out of work?

On Hybrids we are in some agreement.

On tyres being more polluting than some diesels I call bull%^$... Show me a link to some scientific evidence (no facebook posts please)>

 

[Gromett]

The seven largest ships in the world equate to more pollution than all the cars in the world. Regulate them first!

That smells like bull to me as well. Yes they are extremely polluting but that is stretching credibility beyond breaking point.

Yes they need regulating and fixing, but making stuff up like that doesn't help.

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[Gromett]

where will all the money come from for the NHS

PS: Moving to EV's will save the NHS money due to lowering pollution and therefore lung disease and cancers.

 

[tonyidle]

I am now half pissed

I'm impressed - only half-pissed after 4?

 

[PeteH]

I'm impressed - only half-pissed after 4?

Yes, and I just got up to pee @ 05-55. With a mouth like *****. (That should teach me! not likely at my age, old dogs, new tricks?, not happening)! but, hey! the barbie tasted OK?. And am Now drinking coffee.! Off to York at Lunchtime, little C-L, no facilities, just off the North Ring road. 2 Village Pubs, hopefully quiet and Socially distanced, if not, a locker full of beer and wine, the promise of 3 warm dry days and Doggy walks on the Ouse Bank. Chillin` with a different outlook. . Second mug coming up!.

 

[scally]

If all the traffic is going through these areas more slowly , won’t they be there longer so the effect on emissions will be approximately Zero ?

As far as congestion is concerned I know that on the M42 around Solihull/ NEC area which was always a car park before the smart motorway it made a considerable difference to journey times when they introduced the 50 limit smart thingy. Whether that was purely down to speed limits or combined with lots of cameras I’m not sure.

thats my feeling

 

[Gromett]

thats my feeling

Science doesn't care about your feelings

Here is the thing. They think it will reduce NOx, You feel it won't. Let's settle the argument by running an experiment and see who's "Guess" is the right one and take it from there...

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