More good news from CAMpRA

[Phileas Dog]

E mail sent

 

[glenn2926]

Fair enough. Too many posters (like CaMpRA, which has the aim "Provide safe, overnight parking spaces") still don't appreciate the difference between parking and camping.

Having been a truck driver in the past what was my sleeping in my cab in a lay-by classed as?
How is sleeping in my motorhome any different? Is it classed any differently?
Is there a specific law for truck drivers re overnight sleeping?
Thanks in advance for any clarification on these points.

 

[GoldenVision]

Brilliant, maybe drop them an email to tell NT this. The more of us they hear from, they more they may be persuaded to extend the scheme.
enquiries@nationaltrust.org.uk

Done!

 

[chaser]

Fair enough. Too many posters (like CaMpRA, which has the aim "Provide safe, overnight parking spaces") still don't appreciate the difference between parking and camping.

I think you have flogged this to death now, just because you know of some law from the sixties doesn't mean anybody is going to take any notice by continually bringing it up at every opportunity.
These latest places must know what they are doing, councils and nt and similar places just as well as you.

 

[Potty]

Fair enough. Too many posters (like CaMpRA, which has the aim "Provide safe, overnight parking spaces") still don't appreciate the difference between parking and camping.

CAMPRA definitely do know the difference between parking/sleeping overnight and camping. We are campaigning for Aires based on the French model - no tables and chairs out, no barbecue, no water or waste containers outside the van.

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[GJH]

Having been a truck driver in the past what was my sleeping in my cab in a lay-by classed as?
How is sleeping in my motorhome any different? Is it classed any differently?
Is there a specific law for truck drivers re overnight sleeping?
Thanks in advance for any clarification on these points.

I have explained that many times over the years that sleeping in laybys (including MSAs) and by the side of the road is not covered by the 1960 Act (which relates to off road land). I don't know how easy it will be to find the posts using the search facility.
I wrote this article several years ago for the MH Parking web site.

 

[GJH]

I think you have flogged this to death now, just because you know of some law from the sixties doesn't mean anybody is going to take any notice by continually bringing it up at every opportunity.
These latest places must know what they are doing, councils and nt and similar places just as well as you.

CAMPRA definitely do know the difference between parking/sleeping overnight and camping. We are campaigning for Aires based on the French model - no tables and chairs out, no barbecue, no water or waste containers outside the van.

It is important to know the legal position in the UK (as opposed to other countries) because what happens in other countries is not relevant to establishing legal aires in this country. No tables and chairs out, no barbecue, no water or waste containers outside the van is totally irrelevant as far as the law in this country is concerned. CaMpRA ought to professional enough to acknowledge that
Several councils allow parking of motorhomes overnight, but not if they are occupied, and we don't want people duped into thinking they are acting legally and being fined do we?

 

[chaser]

It is important to know the legal position in the UK (as opposed to other countries) because what happens in other countries is not relevant to establishing legal aires in this country. No tables and chairs out, no barbecue, no water or waste containers outside the van is totally irrelevant as far as the law in this country is concerned. CaMpRA ought to professional enough to acknowledge that
Several councils allow parking of motorhomes overnight, but not if they are occupied, and we don't want people duped into thinking they are acting legally and being fined do we?

How often have people been prosecuted with this law?

 

[DumfriesDik]

Email sent to NT

 

[AndyPK]

Me too!

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[JockandRita]

If there are a reasonable amount of places at NT to stay I would join them yearly.

I’m sure many others would also.

We certainly would.

Just dropped them an email

Ditto.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[GJH]

How often have people been prosecuted with this law?

I haven't a clue. That, though, is also irrelevant.

 

[chaser]

I haven't a clue. That, though, is also irrelevant.

Irrelevant to what? It seems that no one is interested in it apart from you.

 

[peterc10]

It is important to know the legal position in the UK (as opposed to other countries) because what happens in other countries is not relevant to establishing legal aires in this country. No tables and chairs out, no barbecue, no water or waste containers outside the van is totally irrelevant as far as the law in this country is concerned. CaMpRA ought to professional enough to acknowledge that
Several councils allow parking of motorhomes overnight, but not if they are occupied, and we don't want people duped into thinking they are acting legally and being fined do we?

If that is the case I am struggling to understand how Canterbury CC have managed to allow occupied overnight stops in their Old Dover Road P&R site for many years.

 

[joe and sue]

If that is the case I am struggling to understand how Canterbury CC have managed to allow occupied overnight stops in their Old Dover Road P&R site for many years.

Methinks it could be a rare case of common sense being applied

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[TerryL]

I'm really not interested in all this "legal" shenanigans and the constant repetition of peoples opinions on what is or is not "legal". C'mon guys, this is NOT what the thread is about.

But I have sent an email to NT to offer my support.

 

[glenn2926]

Irrelevant to what? It seems that no one is interested in it apart from you.

Perhaps it’s a little like the French breathalyser law. The law says one must have them but there’s no punishment for not doing.
I seem to remember many years ago a government information film type thing saying if you are tired and driving you should pull off the road and have a sleep. How this complies with the no sleeping in vehicles law I don’t know.

 

[GJH]

Irrelevant to what? It seems that no one is interested in it apart from you.

I suppose it depends whether one believes one can ignore legislation if one finds it inconvenient.

 

[GJH]

If that is the case I am struggling to understand how Canterbury CC have managed to allow occupied overnight stops in their Old Dover Road P&R site for many years.

Because Canterbury CC followed the requirements of the legislation to set up the P&R to allow camping as well as parking.

 

[chaser]

I suppose it depends whether one believes one can ignore legislation if one finds it inconvenient.

Man, everyone ignores it but you

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[GJH]

Man, everyone ignores it but you

I quite like not being the ignorant one

 

[82125]

How do you define "a small fee"? Some will pay £10 whereas others will baulk at 10p and even at that they will try and get away without paying!!

and rightly so. I dont pay to "park" anywhere, never have, unless I actually receive something in return for that fee.

Whether that be parking a car in a car park with the walls plastered with "we take no responsibility for anything that happens to your vehicle" or some of these overnight stops for MH's where zero provision of anything is offered in return, and its just a "ooo we can charge them for nothing and make money".

Whilst some are happy to pay say £10 to park on a car park overnight and not even get provision of water or waste disposal (whilst any other vehicle can do the same for free) I am certainly not one of them.

Anywhere that proposes any sort of charge ought to be providing some sort of service in return (even bins and an OPEN toilet will suffice) or I simply will not use it. Allowing me to be stationary in my own vehicle on a piece of tarmac paid for via taxation in the first place, is not providing a service.
This current concept of money for nothing only encourages me to park in the places they (and local residents) do not want to me to park in because there are no other alternatives.

 

[peterc10]

A Allowing me to be stationary in my own vehicle on a piece of tarmac paid for via taxation in the first place, is not providing a service.

That does not apply to NHS properties. It's a charity funded by donations subscriptions and entry charges.

 

[peterc10]

Because Canterbury CC followed the requirements of the legislation to set up the P&R to allow camping as well as parking.

If it is that simple who is to say that the NT and others are not doing the same?

 

[82125]

That does not apply to NHS properties. It's a charity funded by donations subscriptions and entry charges.

Assuming you mean NT properties?
And if so, if there not currently charging the vehicles to park there during the day, I personally wouldnt be prepared to pay during the evening for the same level of provision (i.e nothing).

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[peterc10]

Assuming you mean NT properties?
And if so, if there not currently charging the vehicles to park there during the day, I personally wouldnt be prepared to pay during the evening for the same level of provision (i.e nothing).

Yes and changed it now. As for parking members get it free, but non-members have to pay.

Without the benefit of more revenue why would anybody want to allow motorhomes to stay on their property at night? Would you be happy to allow complete strangers to park on your property for nowt? And then have to empty bins more often, pay extra insurance premiums and all the other hidden costs.

 

[GJH]

If it is that simple who is to say that the NT and others are not doing the same?

Licensing authorities (of which Canterbury CC is one) can use the exemption in para 11.
The NT is a private company so must obtain a licence or use another exemption.
See this article.

 

[peterc10]

Licensing authorities (of which Canterbury CC is one) can use the exemption in para 11.
The NT is a private company so must obtain a licence or use another exemption.
See this article.

If MHF can become an exempted organisation (which it is) I am sure that the NT can.

 

[Speve]

Fair enough. Too many posters (like CaMpRA, which has the aim "Provide safe, overnight parking spaces") still don't appreciate the difference between parking and camping.

This is their standard form when asking partners to set up parking and quite clearly states not camping so I believe the do appreciate the difference so please stop being so negative And encourage and help them

This years increased in staycations has highlighted a lack in facilities for camping, caravans and motorcaravans and proven a long term problem with the UK network of campsites.



There are currently over 255,000 registered motorcaravans in the UK and over 1 million in europe.

Surveys show that the average amount spent locally when staying overnight is over £45

If only 10% of UK owners were staying 1 night that is over £1.4 million per day.

So how can “Authority Name” attract motorcaravans and benefit from this



• Firstly we must understand that a motorcaravan only needs a place to park (not camp) if they want to set up camp they will use a campsite.


• They should be limited to 48 or 72 hours stays


• They need water and waste disposal points every few days


• These are commonly known as “aires” and there are several thousand of these throughout europe but very few in the UK.


• For a local council provision of these is relatively easy and with minimum investment and they can be used to fund existing facilities.


• Motorcaravans tour 365 days per year.


Examples of Aires (overnight parking - No Camping)



1. Overnight parking and sleeping - This is the easiest provision for a council as they can use their existing powers or by a TRO to allow overnight parking for self contained motorcaravans only (no camping behaviour) in car parks or on any plot of level land. Preferably with specific allocated motorcaravan bays.


2. Overnight parking with water and waste points (these are required every 4 to 5 days) and will prevent any illegal emptying of waste. - These will require an initial investment which can be kept to a minimum if toilets already exist as it is simply an outside tap and toilet cassette emptying. Ideally a drive over drain (see example provided) for grey waste (washing up and shower water) could be provided and bins for rubbish.


3. Service points only - These can be installed where there is access for one vehicle but no parking. Good examples are public toilets as this is a great way of funding a public toilet ( £3 to use only 10 vans per day £11,000 per year). Other examples are car wash, local garage, village hall, church or any local businesses that have water and sewage.


4. Full blown aire - These require some initial investment or can be outsourced to a professional body who will install and manage these on your behalf. You retain ownership of the land and receive of percentage of the revenue from parking. These are secure areas with entrance barriers, cctv, electric points and are accessed by a pre paid card (we are able to provide details of a company specialising in these).


5. Existing campsite - Aires do not take business away from campsites as most motorcaravan owners do use campsites if staying for more than a few days but campsites are often out of town, have grass pitches, are seasonal, require pre booking often months in advance, often require min stays and are increasingly FULL. But there is no reason they cannot learn from our european neighbours where campsite cater for motorcaravans by having non bookable overnight budget parking (no camping), access to service points (for a small charge) and of course when the main site closes these can continue to operate and provide additional income.


Other Benefits for “Authority Name”



• Allowing motorcaravans to park closer to towns and villages encourages spending in local businesses on average £45 per day.
• Allowing aires with water and waste points would reduce the illegal emptying of waste by irresponsible motorcaravan owners which is good for the environment.
• Small clubs struggling for funds could establish aires as an income stream using existing car parks.


The UK is crying out for a network like this especially now with an increase in staycations and rapid growth in sales

 

[robnchris]

One must also take into account the agreement the NT have with that particular property, ie. some NT sites allow dogs in the gardens whilst others do not, this isn't the NT making that rule, it was stipulated in the paperwork when the NT took the property over.
Some NT properties still have accommodation for the family.

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