Mass emigration from England

[GJH]

Does anyone think the EU could continue without the GB contributions coming in? I for one certainly don't think it could! Not in its present form anyway, I also think that is why the likes of Germany etc, know it and are trying very hard to maintain the status quo.

And why Germany will be open to negotiation to find an ongoing arrangement.

 

[hilldweller]

Does anyone think the EU could continue without the GB contributions coming in? .

It's only £3.5b not much to us and not much to them. If we continued to trade with them then they'd get a good contribution is taxes somewhere along the line.

We give over £11b in foreign aid.

 

[DBK]

It's only £3.5b not much to us and not much to them. If we continued to trade with them then they'd get a good contribution is taxes somewhere along the line.

We give over £11b in foreign aid.

Just in case anyone doubts the above:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start
Interesting to click on the button to see the net contribution by population, for the UK it is around £60 per head per year. The notes on the left are worth reading on both graphs.

Another way of looking at this is to ask if we left the EU and trouser the £60 will we actually be better off after factoring in whatever the consequences of us leaving are, given the EU is our biggest trading partner and some of what we currently export to them will have import taxes levied on them. Not everything, but things like cars will certainly be taxed.

 

[Gromett]

Gus-lopez. Your arguments regarding exiting EU are exactly at the opposite end of the scale to Farage's arguments. He says we will fly, you say we will sink. I reckon it will be somewhere in the middle.

We are Germany and France's 3rd largest export market. Do you honestly think to two most important EU members are going to turn round and cut their exports massively just to spite us?

The EU blocking their countries exports to us just would not happen in any conceivable nightmare I can think of. Therefore they would not be able to stop our exports to them without causing a trade war of import duty escalations. Neither side would want this as it benefits neither party and would in fact do serious damage.

I don't believe we would pull out of the EU then join the EEA as that would end up costing us pretty much the same but with no input to the laws that would bind us.

As for New Zealand, Australia and Canada having long memories.... So what, when it comes to trade governments tend to be fairly pragmatic and pressure from their businesses would be immense to open up trade talks on a mutually beneficial basis.

I have never had a vote on the EEC as I was too young, I have never had the option to vote on the EU like everyone else. I want that opportunity. I want to see a really solid debate without the scare stories.

I probably won't reply to any more of your posts on this subject as it is pretty clear that you have made up your mind and won't be swayed. I am not a fan of banging my head on a post

 

[GJH]

You vote for the political parties that voted to join/stay in the Eu.

I have never had a vote on the EEC as I was too young, I have never had the option to vote on the EU like everyone else. I want that opportunity. I want to see a really solid debate without the scare stories.

Gus is correct as referenda are atypical of the way we vote in the UK. Throughout government, national and local, we delegate decision making to the people we elect so, in that way, we did (collectively even if not as individuals) vote to accept the changes to the EEC since the 1975 referendum.

Referenda have been used in the past to provide decisive answers on questions which keep wasting too much time and causing too much bother otherwise. That will also be the case if we collectively vote in a Conservative government in May. If we vote in any other government then we will default to accepting our delegates' decisions as usual.

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[gus-lopez]

It's only £3.5b not much to us and not much to them. If we continued to trade with them then they'd get a good contribution is taxes somewhere along the line.

We give over £11b in foreign aid.

If that is all it was no one would even be talking about it. I believe the current figure is around 19 billion gross before the rebate. here in this article it states 2013 was 17.2 billion.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-years-8billion-latest-bill-extra-1-7bn.html

Gus-lopez. Your arguments regarding exiting EU are exactly at the opposite end of the scale to Farage's arguments. He says we will fly, you say we will sink. I reckon it will be somewhere in the middle.


I don't believe we would pull out of the EU then join the EEA as that would end up costing us pretty much the same but with no input to the laws that would bind us.

As for New Zealand, Australia and Canada having long memories.... So what, when it comes to trade governments tend to be fairly pragmatic and pressure from their businesses would be immense to open up trade talks on a mutually beneficial basis.

I have never had a vote on the EEC as I was too young, I have never had the option to vote on the EU like everyone else. I want that opportunity. I want to see a really solid debate without the scare stories.

I probably won't reply to any more of your posts on this subject as it is pretty clear that you have made up your mind and won't be swayed. I am not a fan of banging my head on a post

No I haven't made up my mind ; As I live in the EU I just have to plan for " worst case scenario " . ( As A glass half empty person & can you glue it down in case it is knocked over please ?) I hope you are right & that if it is an out vote the Uk will continue to trade with the EU & I can remain living here. They will suffer greatly though if they don't join the EEa due to punitive import taxes. & if they do then as you say & I've said, the situation will be exactly the same re; the situation in the UK .
But in either " out " scenario you could well have millions of returning expats.

 

[phil bobin]

ukip our only hope of normality again and our country back

 

[nelly]

I do not understand why there will be millions of returning expats. am i missing something are there millions

Neil

 

[gus-lopez]

If the UK is not in the EU or the EEA then none of those living in other EU countries have the right to stay. & yes , some 2, 3 million seems to be the agreed amount.

 

[Gromett]

If the UK is not in the EU or the EEA then none of those living in other EU countries have the right to stay. & yes , some 2, 3 million seems to be the agreed amount.

But we have just as Many EU migrants living here so if and I do say if they are booted out it would be a 2 ways street leaving us on balance with the same numbers.

They would have to be careful because the Spanish would be kicking out a large number of people with Assets there and income from the UK (pension) and this would cause a major housing problem worse than the last one as everyone tries to sell. If they fail to sell then the Spanish banks would likely take another hit which they could ill afford. Second the people that would be returning would generally be of working age and would add to their unemployment statistics and bill.

It would not be in any countries best interest to immediately kick residents from other EU countries out. Even Farage knows that much...

You are just promulgating yet another EU scare story.

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[nelly]

I just think it is strange that this thread started with someone going to leave the UK and it is ending up with 2/3 million coming back funny world for funters.

 

[scally]

That Ian Duncan Smith and Esther McVey have a lot to answer for. Is it too late for them and the bedroom tax to go or are we left with the above scenario for the next 5 years.
Where will you be off to by the way.........

What the heck has the withdrawal of the extra bedroom allowance (not a tax) got to do with it ?????

 

[moonman]

I would welcome a referendum on EU membership. Not to withdraw from it but simply to put an end to the debate about leaving. I believe (even though the polls may indicate otherwise) that the English would vote to remain in the EU.

 

[gus-lopez]

But we have just as Many EU migrants living here so if and I do say if they are booted out it would be a 2 ways street leaving us on balance with the same numbers.

They would have to be careful because the Spanish would be kicking out a large number of people with Assets there and income from the UK (pension) and this would cause a major housing problem worse than the last one as everyone tries to sell. If they fail to sell then the Spanish banks would likely take another hit which they could ill afford. Second the people that would be returning would generally be of working age and would add to their unemployment statistics and bill.

It would not be in any countries best interest to immediately kick residents from other EU countries out. Even Farage knows that much...

You are just promulgating yet another EU scare story.

" You are just promulgating yet another EU scare story." No I'm looking at it from my point of view.
If Spain kicked them out the vast majority would n't have a mortgage. There wouldn't be a " major housing problem worse than the last one as everyone tries to sell. " Because
A) the last one is still ongoing
B)There's millons for sale at giveaway prices & hardly any buyers
C) I would assume that if it came to it we would be aimed out with what we stood up in.
D ) Spanish banks wouldn't be hit as they'd freeze all the expats bank accounts until it was decided what to do !!
Don't even think they wouldn't . They'd be able to do it as legally all the bank accounts would be 'resident ' accounts which we would not be anymore & would all have to be changed to 'non-resident' with all the paperwork that entails but of course they¡d want you to come in to do the paperwork but you wouldn't be able to as you wouldn't be in Spain. Oh they'd love it. That's how they actually work here in many places.
They'll have the shirt off your back for a laugh here. As they say , "there is no part of Spain that is NOT corrupt ! "

& that is the EU !
Yes it would balance itself out except that those Spaniards , for example, returning would have no entitlement to benefits as there aren't any & they'd have no ight to healthcare as the government introduced a law earlier this year to the effect that any Spaniard out of the country for more than 30 days has his healthcare removed. There isn't even any exception for pensioners !! Quite how it works re ; the EHIC , if it does, I have no idea.
Basically any returnee's , & there are in excess of 250k Spaniards in the UK, won't cost the government here anything.

 

[Larrynwin]

We won't exit the EU, if Labour are elected we stay in, if Tories elected a few changes will occur and subsequently no referendum, and UKIP won't get in number ten or even get enough seats to have an influence in the house.
Status Quo

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[GJH]

What the heck has the withdrawal of the extra bedroom allowance (not a tax) got to do with it ?????

Absolutely nothing

 

[Glandwr]

I would welcome a referendum on EU membership. Not to withdraw from it but simply to put an end to the debate about leaving. I believe (even though the polls may indicate otherwise) that the English would vote to remain in the EU.

Totally agree, except for your comment on the polls. And the fact it is the English that will decide. First of all it is the British hopefully that will decide. Secondly MOST of the polls over the last 12 months (and there have been dozens) give a majority to staying in.
It may seem perverse but the harder that Nige tries, the higher the majority to stay in becomes. If the question in the poll is larded with the caveat "if HM govt managed to sercure a renegociation and DC recommended staying in how would you vote? With that larding ONLY ONE of the several doz polls conducted give a majority to the out vote.
It's just that the express and tabloids in general love to have a no poll across their front page.
Like princess diana stories it sells

Dick

 

[maison]

Hmmmmmm..... Annual bowel screening for me proved positive, result in less than a week, retested again within a week, Colonoscopy arranged and performed within two weeks, 5 polyps removed during the Colonoscopy and sent for analysis, one week later results from lab proved (thankfully) benign. Let me see now, 5 weeks from start to finish, yes that seems pretty shite to me....NOT

Christmas Day.

Lunch time.

Mum collapses at dinner table. Ring on call Doctor. "You must ring 999 for an ambulance".

Dial 999 repeat comment from Doctor. "We will be with you shortly".

15 minutes later Ambulance technician, in car, arrives. "No ambulances available at moment". Treats Mum.

10 minutes later, Paramedic in Ambulance car arrives. Both check Mum. Pulse 170 per minute, blood pressure 190/165, respiration 46 breaths per minute, oxygen saturation 90%, heart tachycardia.
(Good service so far).

Paramedic contacts his control room and asks for "hot response". After about 20 minutes ( can't be sure of exact time because of situation) asks for ETA of ambulance and is asked "are you on standby at xxxxxxx address?" Repeats call for "hot response" and says to me "this is beyond a joke".

Ambulance arrives and rushes Mum to hospital.

On arrival blood pressure 195/168, breathing shallow and thready.
Admitted to "emergency medical assessment unit" at 1640 hours.
Eventually seen by Doctor at 2236 hours, almost six hours later.

During that time we complained that no one was checking vital signs. On the three occasions we complained staff carried out checks. On the third occasion blood pressure was recorded as 105/46. My wife, (qualified State registered nurse) pointed out the massive and rapid drop but no one one concerned.

 

[buttons]

What the heck has the withdrawal of the extra bedroom allowance (not a tax) got to do with it ?????

Got to do with what scally and GJH, do tell me......

 

[maison]

Sorry, additional info to above.

No beds available in wards so Mum on trolley in emergency medical assessment unit all night, together with ten others.

The outcome, fortunately, was good, but don't pretend that all is well with NHS Wales.

At no time did we gave complaints about individuals involved in Mum's care. It's the system that is broken!

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[Glandwr]

Exactly same thing happened to MIL about a decade ago. We were told that it was known as sunday lunch syndrome. Old people living alone survive on vertually no calories. Then take on huge amounts in short time plus maybe a glass of sherry. System overloads!

We actually had the air ambulance out.

Hope she recovered with no ill effects.

Dick

 

[buttons]

Exactly same thing happened to MIL about a decade ago. We were told that it was known as sunday lunch syndrome. Old people living alone survive on vertually no calories. Then take on huge amounts in short time plus maybe a glass of sherry. System overloads!

We actually had the air ambulance out.

Hope she recovered with no ill effects.

Dick

If you are taking on calories during a short time then I think you could do with re-training

 

[Glandwr]

Please tell me more Buttons

Dick

 

[maison]

Exactly same thing happened to MIL about a decade ago. We were told that it was known as sunday lunch syndrome. Old people living alone survive on vertually no calories. Then take on huge amounts in short time plus maybe a glass of sherry. System overloads!

We actually had the air ambulance out.

Hope she recovered with no ill effects.

Dick

OK.

But diagnosis was severe chest infection compounded by "genuine, not man" influenza .

Massive antibiotics plus tamiflu for next five days.

Mum is 88 years old. Suggestion of overindulgence is based on lack of knowledge of incident. Only food consumed was basic starter of fruit. Mum non drinker.

Still, glad to hear your outcome was also OK.

 

[sdc77]

.. I think @gus-lopez has explained nicely above why we should leave the EU.. ( I don't care about ex pats.. (They are what they are)

Re the Welsh NHS.. You're lucky you got an ambulance. In London you would still be waiting. Its so bad here that police have been instructed to start taking people to hospital.. (like they already weren't)

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[hilldweller]

If that is all it was no one would even be talking about it. I believe the current figure is around 19 billion gross before the rebate. here in this article it states 2013 was 17.2 billion.

If you must quote alternative daily mail data at least quote it properly, it says £8.6b.

 

[gus-lopez]

If you must quote alternative daily mail data at least quote it properly, it says £8.6b.

Unfortunately like most Mail articles it is badly written & all over the place.

" However, the rebate has fallen from £5.4billion in 2009 to only £3.3billion in 2013, figures published by the FT show. At the same time total payments from the UK have risen from £14.1billion to £17.2billion."
" Even allowing for £5.2billion of EU spending in the UK, on farming, fisheries and regeneration, the UK was still £8.6billion worse off last year."

That's 8,6 worse off not total.Although the net total does end up around that figure. The actual gross figure is for this year is near 20 billion.
Here's the breakdown for 2011 showing who pays what & how much each contributes towards the UK's rebate.
Scroll to 'Other revenue'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

If my memory serves me correctly the figure , when broken down to a daily amount is close to 60 million.
I have it all bookmarked somewhere !

The actual net contribution is a lot lower assuming that the UK actually applies for EU funding for projects during each year.

Problem that most people don't realise with the UK is that the 'rebate' comes with strings. In other countries all & any local bodies can & will apply for EU grants towards projects.
When this was brought up with one region in the UK they stated that there was no problem funding a project , applying & being granted EU funding ; but because of the rebate rules the EU only supplied the funding up to the % of the rebate , with the UK government having to put in the remainder....................Which they would not do!! So most regions/councils/etc; gave up applying.

it's 53M/day
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/336667/Now-our-payments-to-the-EU-hit-53m-each-day

https://fullfact.org/economy/cost_eu_membership_gross_net_contribution-30887

 

[Gorse Hill]

Hmmmm....I have empathy for my fellow man who are not as well off as I Toots, something that a lot of Tories have no concept of.

Well said Mr Buttons, don't these tories get on your nerves taking s**t all the time
Only interested in there own type