Low leisure battery charge rant about British manufacturers (2 Viewers)

[spadger007]

Hi all
Forgive me if this sort of post has been posted before. Apologies already this could be a long thread. It’s more of a rant than a question but I would welcome any suggestions or comments.

I’ve got a Swift Escape 674 2023 model less than 12 months old. We bought it privately from a genuine seller and transferred the warranty over. For those that don’t know it’s on a Fiat Ducato 4.5t chassis.
It’s completely standard with an AGM starter battery and a Yusa RC80 leisure battery along with what I would consider the main problem a smart alternator.

Since owning it last November we’ve done a few trips and I’ve noticed after each journey the leisure battery capacity drops significantly. Most of the time we are on EHU so generally don’t really have a problem. However if I want to use the vehicle off grid i.e. pub stop by the morning we have very little capacity in the battery. In fact on some occasions the large electric bed just about lifted up.
From reading many discussions and watching many YouTube videos it’s now pretty clear to me the problem of the smart alternator can be solved by fitting a b2b or dc2dc charger. Problem solved (I think)

In my opinion Swift has built a nearly £90k vehicle that really the charging system fitted isn’t fit for purpose.

I’ve been in touch with my local dealer who has already done some warranty repairs successfully. I basically asked them to check out the charging system after I spoke with Swift and Sargent directly.

The report was simply put yes they agree it’s not charging the leisure battery.

I’m still waiting for a response from Swift but I’ve been told it doesn’t look too good to get this resolved.

Now I’ve read some of the posts on this forum and it does seem to be quite common especially if a lithium battery is being fitted.

I don’t want to a lithium personally I don’t think it’s necessary if the standard battery gets the required charge.

It appears a lot of British motorhomes built don’t have dc2dc chargers with the latest specifications of Euro 6 require a smart alternator and if they where fitted I’m confident most motorhomers won’t need to spend a lot more money on lithium and extra solar.

Is about time all leisure vehicles with extra batteries and solar should have a standard spec with dc2dc charger even with lead acid batteries.

I’ve actually attached a screenshot of a smart shunt graph showing 100% start of trip from a campsite on Isle of Arran back to home. This shows the drop in percentage before I put it back on charge once we were home. We also had one night on a car park off grid.

Many thanks if you have read all of this.

 

[MisterB]

if the battery disharges overnight after a long drive, then it may be more of a capacity issue, rather than a charger issue. for my part i dont understand why a high value motorhome, like yours, doesnt have a lithium battery fitted as standard for the difference in cost when manufacturing. Your graph is confusing as it shows lower battery capacity after a camp site stop, but you say you use EHU? i also dont think it should lose capacity when driving if the alternator is charging it?

there are lots of threads on B2B's being fitted to motorhomes with smart alternators, which may be worth reading and lots of threads where funsters dont have lithium and manage perfectly well, again worth searching for and reading.

personally i would be looking to have as large a lithium battery as i could fit as i assume you will be keeping your van for quite some time, along with a large capacity B2B and a large output pure sine wave inverter - you will be surprised at how it really makes your motorhome into a motorHOME ...

 

[Guigsy]

The battery discharging while travelling was usually caused by a 3-way fridge in 12v mode. They take a lot of current. This wasn't an issue before smart alternators. But the introduction means they supply less than the fridge uses in transit. As mentioned, the solution is a B2B charger to demand the appropriate current from the alternator.

If you plug in before you leave home and pre-chill the fridge, the effect will be reduced.

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[Lenny HB]

for my part i dont understand why a high value motorhome, like yours, doesnt have a lithium battery fitted as standard for the difference in cost when manufacturing.

Very few Motorhomes have Lithium it an extra on £300k+ Morelo's so why would you expect it on a much lower cost van.

But a B2B should be fitted if it has a smart alternator.

 

[MisterB]

Very few Motorhomes have Lithium it an extra on £300k+ Morelo's so why would you expect it on a much lower cost van.

Because i am not a believer in a race to the bottom, where just because the most expensive vans are produced with a 'lower spec battery', everyone follows on from that .... the difference in cost at build stage is prob £4-500, so i just dont think its the way things should be done!

i can imagine the sales pitch, yes sir/madam/non binary etc this motorhome is £500 more than that one, but it has better equipment, allowing you to spend more time off grid and the battery has a ten year guarantee

 

[Two on Tour]

Hi all
Forgive me if this sort of post has been posted before. Apologies already this could be a long thread. It’s more of a rant than a question but I would welcome any suggestions or comments.

I’ve got a Swift Escape 674 2023 model less than 12 months old. We bought it privately from a genuine seller and transferred the warranty over. For those that don’t know it’s on a Fiat Ducato 4.5t chassis.
It’s completely standard with an AGM starter battery and a Yusa RC80 leisure battery along with what I would consider the main problem a smart alternator.

Since owning it last November we’ve done a few trips and I’ve noticed after each journey the leisure battery capacity drops significantly. Most of the time we are on EHU so generally don’t really have a problem. However if I want to use the vehicle off grid i.e. pub stop by the morning we have very little capacity in the battery. In fact on some occasions the large electric bed just about lifted up.
From reading many discussions and watching many YouTube videos it’s now pretty clear to me the problem of the smart alternator can be solved by fitting a b2b or dc2dc charger. Problem solved (I think)

In my opinion Swift has built a nearly £90k vehicle that really the charging system fitted isn’t fit for purpose.

I’ve been in touch with my local dealer who has already done some warranty repairs successfully. I basically asked them to check out the charging system after I spoke with Swift and Sargent directly.

The report was simply put yes they agree it’s not charging the leisure battery.

I’m still waiting for a response from Swift but I’ve been told it doesn’t look too good to get this resolved.

Now I’ve read some of the posts on this forum and it does seem to be quite common especially if a lithium battery is being fitted.

I don’t want to a lithium personally I don’t think it’s necessary if the standard battery gets the required charge.

It appears a lot of British motorhomes built don’t have dc2dc chargers with the latest specifications of Euro 6 require a smart alternator and if they where fitted I’m confident most motorhomers won’t need to spend a lot more money on lithium and extra solar.

Is about time all leisure vehicles with extra batteries and solar should have a standard spec with dc2dc charger even with lead acid batteries.

I’ve actually attached a screenshot of a smart shunt graph showing 100% start of trip from a campsite on Isle of Arran back to home. This shows the drop in percentage before I put it back on charge once we were home. We also had one night on a car park off grid.

Many thanks if you have read all of this.



View attachment 880260

I think that you are expecting a lot from a 80Ah battery, and I would be very surprised if the Yusa RC80 was an original fitment by Swift.

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[spadger007]

if the battery disharges overnight after a long drive, then it may be more of a capacity issue, rather than a charger issue. for my part i dont understand why a high value motorhome, like yours, doesnt have a lithium battery fitted as standard for the difference in cost when manufacturing. Your graph is confusing as it shows lower battery capacity after a camp site stop, but you say you use EHU? i also dont think it should lose capacity when driving if the alternator is charging it?

there are lots of threads on B2B's being fitted to motorhomes with smart alternators, which may be worth reading and lots of threads where funsters dont have lithium and manage perfectly well, again worth searching for and reading.

personally i would be looking to have as large a lithium battery as i could fit as i assume you will be keeping your van for quite some time, along with a large capacity B2B and a large output pure sine wave inverter - you will be surprised at how it really makes your motorhome into a motorHOME ...

Hi thanks for your reply.
I probably haven’t made it all clear.
Firstly the manufacturer Swift should know the base vehicle has a smart alternator fitted and it won’t charge any leisure battery.
Yes I do agree 80ah is a very low capacity but you’ve got to understand this vehicle is less than a year old and from what I understand they are still building them with the same specs which quite frankly is not acceptable.

The graph attached isn’t the best I agree but we were on an EHU on a campsite and left with the fridge switched on. We had one night on a car park with no EHU and then travelled approximately 3.5 hours back home. The graph clearly shows the battery level as a percentage dropping all the way. At no point does it charge significantly.

What I’m saying Swift have a built a van that costs nearly £90k with an entry level charging system and power supply. If a dc2dc charger had been fitted I wouldn’t have a problem even with the tiny 80ah battery.

There must be other manufacturers doing the same and relying on good people to eventually realise that their standard low spec system isn’t up to it and reaches out for help and spends about £5000 to upgrade the system when all it would take is £300 dc2dc charger.

 

[spadger007]

Because i am not a believer in a race to the bottom, where just because the most expensive vans are produced with a 'lower spec battery', everyone follows on from that .... the difference in cost at build stage is prob £4-500, so i just dont think its the way things should be done!

i can imagine the sales pitch, yes sir/madam/non binary etc this motorhome is £500 more than that one, but it has better equipment, allowing you to spend more time off grid and the battery has a ten year guarantee

Spot on

 

[spadger007]

I think that you are expecting a lot from a 80Ah battery, and I would be very surprised if the Yusa RC80 was an original fitment by Swift.

Thanks for your reply

Yes all original equipment fitted and I agree it’s asking a hell of a lot from such a small battery that only gets charged properly through the EHU charger.
The solar system is also basic but I know that’s working ok

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[Pausim]

In my opinion Swift has built a nearly £90k vehicle that really the charging system fitted isn’t fit for purpose.

The need for a B2B for leisure battery charging when the vehicle has a smart alternator has been known since at least 2015. Swift seem to have been ignoring the issue. The alternator/ecu keeps the engine battery at an artificially low voltage so that there is room for energy recovery when slowing down. With a basic split charge relay the leisure battery and engine battery are linked and the alternator/ecu see them as a single battery, it will let them both fall to the same lower voltage. Hence a full leisure battery will discharge while driving.

 

[LithiumConvert]

It sounds to me like the leisure battery has been allowed to go flat.

A death sentence for any lead-acid battery.

You need to fit a B2B before doing anything else. Make sure it has settings for GEL, AGM and Lithium.
And disconnect any split charge relay.

 

[LithiumConvert]

The {so called smart]alternator/ecu keeps the engine battery at an artificially low voltage so that there is room for energy recovery when slowing down.

In my opinion, a smart alternator and no B2B is a crazy system for a motohome.

Our 2022 Hymer Exsis now has two B2Bs. A high powered one (45/70amp) to charge the leisure battery from the alternator/starter battery when driving and a low powered one (15amp) to keep the starter battery properly charged from the leisure battery at all times.

It is working well. Very well. We arrive on site with both batteries properly charged. (and the starter then maintained)

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[autorouter]

It's a well-known fact that a leisure battery will not be charged satisfactorily directly from a smart alternator. So why is it connected to the starter battery at all when the engine is running? If it was disconnected as it should be, it would stay at a constant level and not discharge. That I think is the absolute minimum standard to be expected.

The fridge should be connected to the alternator/starter battery while the engine is running, and the smart alternator will power it correctly just the same as it powers the lights, fan, wipers etc. Of course it will be at a reduced voltage of about 12.5V, but that is fine for running a fridge and all the other vehicle electrics, it's just no good for charging a battery.

If the leisure battery is connected to the alternator, it will be dragged down to the 12.5V level, as shown in the graphs.

 

[tinkertaylor]

Manufacturers cut costs at every opportunity to maximise profits, most of the cuts arent noticed. While agreeing to purchase the van maybe the Dc2Dc and lithium should be negotiated.......moving forward a valuable lesson to future customers.

To spend 90k on something and have it compromised for an extra £1k ( lithium) and dc2dc is a false economy. Lithium is a huge game changer and the sooner its adopted the better....IMHO.

 

[steve69]

If you plug in before you leave home and pre-chill the fridge, the effect will be reduced.

I find that filling the freezer compartment with pre-frozen meals just before setting off is just as good.

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[acropolis22]

Does anyone know when Fiat started fitting smart alternators?

 

[Pausim]

Does anyone know when Fiat started fitting smart alternators?

On their normal vans they have been fitting them for a long time however they continued to supply them without smart alternators specifically for motorhome converters until September 2019. At that point the testing procedures changed and they could no longer get away with it. There were probably a fair few of the older models without smart alternators still in the system into 2020 and perhaps beyond. I think the ones with AdBlue and 9 speed automatics should have smart alternators.

 

[oldiesontour]

When I started planning my PVC amongst other research I quickly read split charge will not be suitable for a smart alternator,(Something I had never heard of),a little more reading and I knew why it would not work.
I installed the Renogy b2b with mppt(£180)
and 220LA batteries,works superbly 3way fridge, compressor freezer,2kw inverter,2 ebikes etc,has also kept my SB "full all winter.
Seems Swift have installed a system not fit for purpose with split charger,solar controller and additional wiring costing as much as my
B2B mppt was!

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[acropolis22]

On their normal vans they have been fitting them for a long time however they continued to supply them without smart alternators specifically for motorhome converters until September 2019. At that point the testing procedures changed and they could no longer get away with it. There were probably a fair few of the older models without smart alternators still in the system into 2020 and perhaps beyond. I think the ones with AdBlue and 9 speed automatics should have smart alternators.

Mine was delivered by Fiat in Sept 2016. So very unlikely to have a smart alternator?

 

[AdrianChen]

Found the answer..... So deleted question

 

[eddie]

What I’m saying Swift have a built a van that costs nearly £90k with an entry level charging system and power supply. If a dc2dc charger had been fitted I wouldn’t have a problem even with the tiny 80ah battery.

Sadly £90K is entry level

Have you had the leisure battery tested? You may find that the original set up would "cope" with an over night stay without hook up if the battery was 100% A OK but being a second hand van you have absolutely no idea what treatment the original owner subjected it too. Often a reason that batteries are excluded from warranty claims

Also what was the reason that the original owner gave for selling a nearly new motorhome? That in itself is strange! Probably kept getting flat batteries

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[ontheroadagain]

On their normal vans they have been fitting them for a long time however they continued to supply them without smart alternators specifically for motorhome converters until September 2019. At that point the testing procedures changed and they could no longer get away with it. There were probably a fair few of the older models without smart alternators still in the system into 2020 and perhaps beyond. I think the ones with AdBlue and 9 speed automatics should have smart alternators.

According to our Fiat Professional garage our Fiat Ducato (140bhp manual with adblue) was built in April 2021.
No stop start and no smart alternator fitted.

 

[autorouter]

The problem as I see it is that the usual 12V distribution/fuseboxes fitted in motorhomes need a complete re-design for a smart alternator, particularly when using a fridge etc while driving. The existing ones all assume that the incoming power from the alternator is about 14.5V, and they don't work so well if that's not true, as for a smart alternator. The idea of running the fridge from the leisure battery while simultaneously connecting the leisure battery to the smart alternator just doesn't work. The fridge wiring needs to be separate, as it is in Schaudt Electrobloks. And that's before you consider the question of a B2B instead of a split charge relay.

 

[DerryW]

Can you tell by simply lifting the bonnet and looking at the alternator if it’s a Smart version

Thanks Derry

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[oldiesontour]

Can you tell by simply lifting the bonnet and looking at the alternator if it’s a Smart version

Thanks Derry

No

 

[Lenny HB]

Sadly £90K is entry level

I was being polite and didn't mention that.

 

[jerryz]

Swift ..... say no more ,,

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[Dorwyn]

It is unbelievable that UK manufacturers still continue to do this. I've just had a battery master fitted by Van Bitz for just this reason. They did not agree though that the split charger should be disconnected because it only supplies a trickle charge when there is a difference of 2.5 volts between the batteries. I have no idea. It sounds to me like i bought the wrong one.

 

[oldiesontour]

It is unbelievable that UK manufacturers still continue to do this. I've just had a battery master fitted by Van Bitz for just this reason. They did not agree though that the split charger should be disconnected because it only supplies a trickle charge when there is a difference of 2.5 volts between the batteries. I have no idea. It sounds to me like i bought the wrong one.

You can't replace a split charger with a battery master 2 totally different creatures

 

[eddie]

It is unbelievable that UK manufacturers still continue to do this. I've just had a battery master fitted by Van Bitz for just this reason. They did not agree though that the split charger should be disconnected because it only supplies a trickle charge when there is a difference of 2.5 volts between the batteries. I have no idea. It sounds to me like i bought the wrong one.

Hi the Battery Master is a long term engine battery charging device.

It will not charge the leisure battery, ever, and it operates when the voltage difference is circa 0.8 VDC

It in no way replaces any split charger or Battery 2 Battery charger

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