Local business man fined after reporting illegal immigrants who had broke into his campervan (1 Viewer)

[chaser]

When will discussion of immigration be banned on the forums? It's just another divisive issue that feeds various narratives but very few will change their minds on

I think ,as this is about motorhomes it is quite within present rules.

 

[DandJ]

Shame the RNLI don't get a £1500 fine for every one they bring in.
Test case needed.

The Border Force would be broke if that was the case......

Also, in your earlier point about the RNLI, it struck me as strange when, as the boat sank and a young girl was drowned a few months ago, the people still in the water after the rubber boat partially sank, refused instant rescue by a French Authority boat and waited about an hour for a British one, or so it was reported on the BBC from that same beach that morning!

What happens (it still does....it did yesterday) is that french vessels including 'warships' track seaborne inflatables with migrants on board...often less than a mile off the french coast. (Yesterdays follow and collection was by a ship called Ridens) You can follow them on websites such as 'vesselfinder'. You can follow the ebb and flow of the tide as the untrackable dinghys move slowly with it. The migrants generally refuse to get out of their dinghy into the french vessels as they fear being returned to France. They are tracked to mid channel where they are met with Border Force vessels and/or chartered vessels such as MCS Taku or Blue Northern (offshore support vessels)

Sounds a bit unbelievable...but have a look at the UYK Govt site listing illegal migration in small boats to the UK. One column is for uncontrolled landings....boats arriving on the shores of the UK....there aren't any. They are all met. Yesterdays collection service wasn't added to the list as I type this, Mondays were...65.

Small boat arrivals – last 7 days

www.gov.uk

 

[Bobby dazzler]

The Border Force would be broke if that was the case......

What happens (it still does....it did yesterday) is that french vessels including 'warships' track seaborne inflatables with migrants on board...often less than a mile off the french coast. (Yesterdays follow and collection was by a ship called Ridens) You can follow them on websites such as 'vesselfinder'. You can follow the ebb and flow of the tide as the untrackable dinghys move slowly with it. The migrants generally refuse to get out of their dinghy into the french vessels as they fear being returned to France. They are tracked to mid channel where they are met with Border Force vessels and/or chartered vessels such as MCS Taku or Blue Northern (offshore support vessels)

Sounds a bit unbelievable...but have a look at the UYK Govt site listing illegal migration in small boats to the UK. One column is for uncontrolled landings....boats arriving on the shores of the UK....there aren't any. They are all met. Yesterdays collection service wasn't added to the list as I type this, Mondays were...65.

Small boat arrivals – last 7 days

www.gov.uk

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Britain is finished so much corruption enjoy your motorhomes.while you can people

 

[meanders]

Shows the nature of the posters when people 'like' a post calling on the RLNI to leave people to drown rather than bring them back to safety. Disgusting behaviour.

And a significant number of likes for a thread saying the RNLI should be fined for saving lives.

I think we all agree the migration issue needs to be resolved but not by letting people in distress die. The most logical solution is to put money into the source countries to improve their own economies, but two issues there. 1. How to stop the money being creamed off by the often corrupt rulers, and 2. Many of the most vocal of the anti-immigration debate are those that also say we should take away all overseas aid! The issue is a Europe + USA wide one, and at the moment no-one seems to be able to get on top of it. It's clear that any form of barrier is not going to work all the time. The Mediterranean is not a barrier to those crossing from Africa. The channel is a much smaller distance. Trump's wall is not stopping the crossings from Mexico. It's something all teh countries need to work together on. We and France talking has proven impudent as the migrants are still getting into mainland Europe.

 

[Brains]

And a significant number of likes for a thread saying the RNLI should be fined for saving lives.

I think we all agree the migration issue needs to be resolved but not by letting people in distress die. The most logical solution is to put money into the source countries to improve their own economies, but two issues there. 1. How to stop the money being creamed off by the often corrupt rulers, and 2. Many of the most vocal of the anti-immigration debate are those that also say we should take away all overseas aid! The issue is a Europe + USA wide one, and at the moment no-one seems to be able to get on top of it. It's clear that any form of barrier is not going to work all the time. The Mediterranean is not a barrier to those crossing from Africa. The channel is a much smaller distance. Trump's wall is not stopping the crossings from Mexico. It's something all teh countries need to work together on. We and France talking has proven impudent as the migrants are still getting into mainland Europe.

I agree with you, but the simplest, easiest and most cost effective way to actually stop a fair percentage of the economic migrants crossing is to introduce ID cards.
Much as I don't like the idea, it really is the only solution.

There are two major wastern countries that do not have de facto ID cards, the UK and Denmark.
The Labour rollout of the idea back in the 1990's was badly planned. But it had an immediate effect on immigration.

If, like Ireland, every UK passport was issued with a an ID card and every new school leaver and new every pensioner was issued with an ID card (all at Government expense), within a decade the majority would have a card.
(The cost would only be double what has already been wasted on the Rwanda debacle)

At that point you can start to introduce ID card requirements for things like access certain services.

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[DandJ]

I agree with you, but the simplest, easiest and most cost effective way to actually stop a fair percentage of the economic migrants crossing is to introduce ID cards.
Much as I don't like the idea, it really is the only solution.

There are two major wastern countries that do not have de facto ID cards, the UK and Denmark.
The Labour rollout of the idea back in the 1990's was badly planned. But it had an immediate effect on immigration.

If, like Ireland, every UK passport was issued with a an ID card and every new school leaver and new every pensioner was issued with an ID card (all at Government expense), within a decade the majority would have a card.
(The cost would only be double what has already been wasted on the Rwanda debacle)

At that point you can start to introduce ID card requirements for things like access certain services.

France has ID cards...it also has many many illegal immigrants. It seems that it hasn't worked the way you suggest it would for the UK.

 

[Brains]

Britain is finished so much corruption enjoy your motorhomes.while you can people

In terms of corruption, the UK is number 20 in the least corrupt countries globally
List is here

Scandinavia and the British Isles/France/Germany triangle are in the top 20.

Most of the rest of the world is not.

 

[Brains]

France has ID cards...it also has many many illegal immigrants. It seems that it hasn't worked the way you suggest it would for the UK.

I agree it would not be a panacea
But it would go some way towards a solution.
What it would do is reduce the numbers.

 

[David and Sally]

I agree it would not be a panacea
But it would go some way towards a solution.
What it would do is reduce the numbers.

Unless I am missing something I can’t see how. They are already breaking the law by paddling in so why would they worry about not having an ID card?

 

[meanders]

I don't see how ID cards would help. Migrants would arrived and have to be housed and provided minimum services. Are you proposing that you have to produce ID to go to a hospital, see a GP, but fuel, order food etc..It would not apply to those still in the system after which they would be issued a card anyway.

Most of us were able to produce ID to vote. Why do I need another card to lose?

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[L' Hobo]

I agree with you, but the simplest, easiest and most cost effective way to actually stop a fair percentage of the economic migrants crossing is to introduce ID cards.
Much as I don't like the idea, it really is the only solution.

There are two major wastern countries that do not have de facto ID cards, the UK and Denmark.
The Labour rollout of the idea back in the 1990's was badly planned. But it had an immediate effect on immigration.

If, like Ireland, every UK passport was issued with a an ID card and every new school leaver and new every pensioner was issued with an ID card (all at Government expense), within a decade the majority would have a card.
(The cost would only be double what has already been wasted on the Rwanda debacle)

At that point you can start to introduce ID card requirements for things like access certain services.

Even easier, we tax payers already have a number, it's called your National Insurance number , why not use that for everything!
They, already, have their own Government department.

 

[Brains]

Unless I am missing something I can’t see how. They are already breaking the law by paddling in so why would they worry about not having an ID card?

When they started to introduce ID cards back in the mid 1990's the immediate knock on effect was a reduction of undocumented migrants (at that time it was arriving in the back of lorries and at the airports)

The main issue is in the UK it's fairly easy to get a job without any paperwork or ID checks.
However with an ID card, it becomes almost impossible to even get a paper round without an ID.
Same applies to getting any form of official recognition, bank account, housing, even checking into a hotel room.
Without an ID card it all becomes so much harder.

Hence they go for the easy option, also the one where they have at least some understanding of the culture and language.

ID cards are not the solution, but they would go a long way towards reducing the numbers.

 

[Brains]

Even easier, we tax payers already have a number, it's called your National Insurance number , why not use that for everything!
They, already, have their own Government department.

Agreed. You just need to put it on a card!

Obviously is crazy that your NI Number is different to say your NHS number which is not related to your passport number or your bank account number.
They all should be connected and cross referenced.

You don't need a sophisticated computer system to do that for 50m people, as it's almost possible on an excel spreadsheet.

 

[meanders]

Sorry I disagree. It would be another expensive government project that at the end of the day delivers next to nothing. It would only apply to those who get in and are not picked up that I understand is a tiny number. All the rest are known to us when they land. They have limited right to work. Companies already can and have been fined heavily if they employ anyone not entitled to work. Round here they do spot checks on those working in the fields etc.

 

[L' Hobo]

Deleted

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[Dorwyn]

If migrants who have already broken the law, are pushed into a situation where the cannot do anything without an id card or similar, their only option is to live outside the law, so encouraging an increase in the already existing blank market. Generally though, an id system could force more people in line. But this really is a massive problem that the west cannot control, this shift of world population.

 

[The Wino]

Unless I am missing something I can’t see how. They are already breaking the law by paddling in so why would they worry about not having an ID card?

Isn't there some debate about whether it's illegal if they are making an asylum application although it is illegal if they're not?

 

[robnchris]

Surely it's totally irresponsible to accept these illegal Immigrants, which just encourages more to come and suffer the risk of drowning (as some have) from the dangerous crossing, we have no where for them to go when they get here.
What can you do when they jump out of the RIB into the sea and want rescuing, If from day one we had said if you want to commit suicide that's up to you, then the message would have been you are on your own and if you get here you will be treated like an invader and be locked up.
Of course no one wants to see people drown but the truth is we have no idea who these people are and the last boat I saw was full of single men, no women or children so who are they, just think for a moment of how many have entered this country illegally, if just 1% of them are terrorists then this country is in serious trouble.

 

[The Wino]

When they started to introduce ID cards back in the mid 1990's the immediate knock on effect was a reduction of undocumented migrants (at that time it was arriving in the back of lorries and at the airports)

The main issue is in the UK it's fairly easy to get a job without any paperwork or ID checks.
However with an ID card, it becomes almost impossible to even get a paper round without an ID.
Same applies to getting any form of official recognition, bank account, housing, even checking into a hotel room.
Without an ID card it all becomes so much harder.

Hence they go for the easy option, also the one where they have at least some understanding of the culture and language.

ID cards are not the solution, but they would go a long way towards reducing the numbers.

I think id cards are coming sooner or later but question if we really need a lot more physical documents. Most already have a photo driving licence that could be used as a starter and biometric data could be collected from everyone entering or leaving the country. Once we have biometric data on everyone there's no need for a physical id card you can't lose your fingerprints unless you're really unlucky or your face . It wouldn't be foolproof but does it need to be it could integrate with the new EU biometric passport data. It would if nothing else stop medical tourism on the NHS if combined with compulsory health insurance on entry unless there are reciprocal arrangements.

 

[Brains]

OK, I'll grab the nettle, it's not an ID card we need, that horse has bolted, technology has overtaken it.
What is needed is the removal of the honey pot. A drastic overhaul of our benefits system and I don't just mean for migrants.
The Government is beginning to look like the Bank of Mum & Dad.
Giving to to many but REALLY helping (in the long run) very few!

I don't think anyone would disagree that is needs a massive overhaul and radical rethinking.
(And I'm sure many on here have ideas, starting with the OAP pension system!)

But what would be your solution for those at the very bottom?

Those with literally the clothes on their backs.
They may well have some mental issues caused by PDSD, slavery, abuse, war, family rejection.
Those with behavioral problems, and also those with a reliance of alcohol/drugs.

Come up with viable solutions to the very bottom rung and the rest can be built from there.

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[The Wino]

Surely it's totally irresponsible to accept these illegal Immigrants, which just encourages more to come and suffer the risk of drowning (as some have) from the dangerous crossing, we have no where for them to go when they get here.
What can you do when they jump out of the RIB into the sea and want rescuing, If from day one we had said if you want to commit suicide that's up to you, then the message would have been you are on your own and if you get here you will be treated like an invader and be locked up.
Of course no one wants to see people drown but the truth is we have no idea who these people are and the last boat I saw was full of single men, no women or children so who are they, just think for a moment of how many have entered this country illegally, if just 1% of them are terrorists then this country is in serious trouble.

Often said as an excuse that the real reason is to cut down people smuggling but strangely the best way of doing that ( accepting asylum applications from centres outside the UK) doesn't figure in those holding that view!

 

[L' Hobo]

I don't think anyone would disagree that is needs a massive overhaul and radical rethinking.
(And I'm sure many on here have ideas, starting with the OAP pension system!)

But what would be your solution for those at the very bottom?

Those with literally the clothes on their backs.
They may well have some mental issues caused by PDSD, slavery, abuse, war, family rejection.
Those with behavioral problems, and also those with a reliance of alcohol/drugs.

Come up with viable solutions to the very bottom rung and the rest can be built from there.

There used to be 3 large mental hospitals near Epsom in Surrey until they pulled them down, built a large PRIVATE housing estate and integrated the patients into the community and this happened ALL over the country.
Perhaps we should have kept them?

 

[Brains]

I think id cards are coming sooner or later but question if we really need a lot more physical documents. Most already have a photo driving licence that could be used as a starter and biometric data could be collected from everyone entering or leaving the country. Once we have biometric data on everyone there's no need for a physical id card you can't lose your fingerprints unless you're really unlucky or your face . It wouldn't be foolproof but does it need to be it could integrate with the new EU biometric passport data. It would if nothing else stop medical tourism on the NHS if combined with compulsory health insurance on entry unless there are reciprocal arrangements.

Not disagreeing with you.

As I said if every new passport renewal, OAP and school leaver and add to that, driving licence, and I'm sure a few more official document things like service cards was issued with an ID card, at Government expense, then within a decade the majority would have a card.

In time that card can be replaced with DNA readers, iris readers, fingerprint readers, facial recognition readers etc.
But only once the technology works and can be easily rolled out to every official place.

The UAE introduced iris readers several years ago.
However they don't work for a percentage of people, particularly those with high spec eye prescriptions, such as myself and my sister in law.
Same applies to fingerprint readers, Find me an brickie with fingerprints!
Facial recognition also has a lot of faults with many false positives.

Bottom line is the technology has a long way to go yet,
realistically reliable and cheap hand held DNA readers are the probable solution in a decade or two.

 

[DandJ]

Busy day yesterday...419 in 6 boats (they appear to be cramming more and more in each boat now)

 

[David and Sally]

Busy day yesterday...419 in 6 boats (they appear to be cramming more and more in each boat now)

That will soon be a quiet day.

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[tinkertaylor]

We need to process there applications quicker or maybe process them in France....

Most immigration is legal immigration, the obsession with 1% of immigrants coming in on boats illegally is blurring the problem and not helping. The fact is we need immigration to support an ageing population, the UK's younger adults have been priced out of having children or a home.

Hopefully the new government can start to make head way against the.problems that have been caused by 12 years of mismanagement.

 

[DandJ]

We need to process there applications quicker or maybe process them in France....

Most immigration is legal immigration, the obsession with 1% of immigrants coming in on boats illegally is blurring the problem and not helping. The fact is we need immigration to support an ageing population, the UK's younger adults have been priced out of having children or a home.

It is a healthy obsession tho...in as much as we know who the legal migrants are, where they are coming from and for what reason. We don't have that luxury with the many thousands who are collected mid channel and brought into the country, mainly single young males and often from wartorn areas or countries. This isn't a political issue as such, time will tell how the new Govt deal with it.

 

[L' Hobo]

We need to process there applications quicker or maybe process them in France....

Most immigration is legal immigration, the obsession with 1% of immigrants coming in on boats illegally is blurring the problem and not helping. The fact is we need immigration to support an ageing population, the UK's younger adults have been priced out of having children or a home.

Hopefully the new government can start to make head way against the.problems that have been caused by 12 years of mismanagement.

IF, 419 illegal immigrants in ONE day, as was mentioned in post #54, is 1% x 365 days = 152835 a year X 100 = 15,283,500 (15 million, two hundred and eighty three thousand and five hundred people a year.)

Can the boat immigrants really only be 1%?

I must have got my arithmatic wrong?

 

[DandJ]

Can the boat immigrants really only be 1%?

No, I wasn't going to argue about stats....but c 40k illegal migrants in 2023 v c685k (net) legal migrants...so maybe c 6%.
6% isn't that many, surely.....94% legal...what I'd have given for a 94% exam pass..A+......but when 6% is actually 40k people and just a small percentage of the 40k are bad people....we are talking about hundreds if not thousands of unknown bad people entering the UK (I should rejoice that they're leaving France...my new home)

 

[Spriddler]

Busy day yesterday...419 in 6 boats (they appear to be cramming more and more in each boat now)

I doubt that France has any accurate idea of how many arrive from Italy as there are few border controls, if any, as they fan out and transit to other European countries. It seems that few claim asylum in Italy or France.
Migrants crossing to England in boats are conspicuous and easily identifiable and counted.
As for housing them in detention or after being granted leave to stay, we are already releasing criminals early due to lack of accommodation. Maybe we'll also end up putting the crims in hotels.

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