Little bit of help - please can you guys tell us what you typically do when rolling through France towards the South of France, Spain or Portugal ? (2 Viewers)

[Brains]

You also have to remember, many people are now restricted to 90 days… meandering back is less attractive now too.

Only the British.

My experience over the last couple of years is by far the largest group of European campers are the Germans, with the Dutch a close second.,
The French, Scandaholigans and Italians all outnumber the UK vehicles. (Except certain sites in Spain)

Travelling last May-July it was 3 weeks before we met our first British van and on several sites we were the first UK vehicle of the year.
On a second trip travelling in August in the Netherlands, I don't remember a single UK van on any of the sites.

It would be interesting to know from the ferry companies and eurostar the number of motorhomes and caravans they moved across the channel last year.

 

[Landy Andy]

D for us.

interesting how many on here are A, B, or E then tell you about French campsites, when they don’t use them.

 

[Chris]

Definitely E

 

[Shrimp]

A & B for us.
Only campsite in France we would go back to is at Pors Peron, couple of mins walk to beaches and cliff walks, lovely area, coastline very ‘Cornish’.
Sorry but wouldn’t go anywhere near an industrial area for a campsite, and that is probably why the campsite is run down!
I think your wife is right.

 

[chaser]

Having looked at a few commercial campsites for sale in France there seems to be quite a lot of good sites with good facilities for under a million that seem modern, clean and well kept that in my limited opinion seem ideal for a couple/family to run and probably make a decent living without too much stress and hard work, can I ask why you seem determined to get into dept and have such a hard task of maintaining a much bigger complex site…?

I don’t know your ages or situation so it’s baffling me as to why you want to put yourself in that situation…

This is exactly my take on this, sometimes I think he is pulling our p...... .
Loads of sites ready to go for half a million, in fact when I looked I couldn't find one for over 1.5 million.
These latest ones, 1.5 million for bare ground, it's going to be twice that or even more before it's up and running, then you have got to trust to people wanting to come in maybe two years time.
Ok maybe you know about big business but do you know about holiday sites, when you in fact don't even use them yourself.
I well admire your plans but surely you would be better off with a smaller place that's up and running with scope to expand.
Just my take on this, feel free to ignore me.

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[MattR]

The last site we stayed on close to the tourist route to Spain was near Poitiers. It was in a agricultural area approx 20 mins from Futuroscope.

We only stayed one night - there weren't any Aires available and we treated ourselves to a site with a pool as we had had a busy journey. We didn't go to the bar or restaurant and rarely do on campsites. We spoke Franglaise with the check in staff, spent the night and, along with most other campers, left in the morning.

The only reason we went there was the proximity to Futuroscope. Other campers stated they had the same plan to visit the theme park as us and stay in the park's Aire after their visit whilst others were planning to return to the campsite before heading north or south the following day.

There were a few French campers who appeared to be there for longer stays - I guess one parent was leaving for work in the morning whilst the rest of their family stayed in the site.

There was nothing to encourage us to return or stay longer than a night. It seemed a lot of work for the staff on the evening we arrived and the morning we left. We emptied our loo and filled with water. I can't see that they made much money from our visit.

 

[Landy Andy]

If you can get a site I the right place you can be onto a good thing. We stayed on a site last summer. Went in at just before lunch time, all very very quiet. Just pick anywhere you want. At about 4-5pm onward then became manic, and after a few hours was full. Mainly Dutch and on their way south. Some were desperate for nice pitches even though only there for the night. In morning all manic, and site practically empty again.

For us if a site has a bar we will always have a drink at it, and whilst there check the menu if they have one.

 

[irnbru]

Mostly A for us, sometimes B and rarely C. There’s some lovely free Aires in France and if we are only stopping for a few days we won’t use paid stopovers, we tend to use campsites ir Aires with pools if we want to stop a bit longer.

 

[GMLS]

A or B.We generally have a rough plan but want the flexibility of not being tied to a particular destination en route incase we find something interesting along the way.Good luck whatever you decide

 

[SpeedyDux]

Only the British.

My experience over the last couple of years is by far the largest group of European campers are the Germans, with the Dutch a close second.,
The French, Scandaholigans and Italians all outnumber the UK vehicles. (Except certain sites in Spain)

Travelling last May-July it was 3 weeks before we met our first British van and on several sites we were the first UK vehicle of the year.
On a second trip travelling in August in the Netherlands, I don't remember a single UK van on any of the sites.

It would be interesting to know from the ferry companies and eurostar the number of motorhomes and caravans they moved across the channel last year.

Yes, my experience is typically being the only Brit vehicle on a campsite (except perhaps occasional caravans) south of the Loire valley. The majority of Brits seem afraid to go too far from the Channel. As if they use maps that still say: Here be Dragons

In July/August there are plenty of French caravans and motorhomes on the campsites. And Dutch especially. Holland must seem empty.

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[dawsey]

This is exactly my take on this, sometimes I think he is pulling our p...... .
Loads of sites ready to go for half a million, in fact when I looked I couldn't find one for over 1.5 million.
These latest ones, 1.5 million for bare ground, it's going to be twice that or even more before it's up and running, then you have got to trust to people wanting to come in maybe two years time.
Ok maybe you know about big business but do you know about holiday sites, when you in fact don't even use them yourself.
I well admire your plans but surely you would be better off with a smaller place that's up and running with scope to expand.
Just my take on this, feel free to ignore me.

All of them look great in the adverts. Then you call the agents, and they, after making you sign their paperwork tell you where they are. That’s when you find they are on main roads etc. The ones that aren’t, you travel to visit and find that they are next to the new pig farm or the sewage treatment plant. The ones that arent, you look at the facilities and find they are run into the ground. And so it goes on. It’s very hard to find something decent, well located and viable. Most cater for specific clientele, the dutch for example like to cater only for dutch, same with UK owned sites with principally brit clientele and the ‘fish n chip’ evenings.

The best located sites are always the naturist sites, we are close to making an offer on a couple, but there is always the worry associated with building a seasonal business from scratch, non naturist, all new clientele again. It takes time, years, to build up, as much of the business is repeat, humans are creatures of habit.

Then there's the accounts. I have previous explained valuations are usually 5xCA + walls. Those sites at under a million are typically turning over roughly €50-150k. EBIT is usually about 40-50% for a half decently run site. Then you have to continually invest (camping stuff has finite life and wears out) as with any business. It’s hard to realistically earn enough to pay yourself anything with a site under €1m. That’s the reality.

It’s a precarious existence. Things start to improve dramatically over €1m, bigger sites, better locations, diversified operations (residents, glamping, aire etc) multinational clientele, more staff, much higher turnover. Risk goes down. If you don’t have all the money the only added risk is borrowing.

Someone advised seeking advice from a professional. As former business professionals ourselves (just seeking a new life), and having good knowledge of hospitality, marketing, managing assets and running operations, this was of course the first thing we did. And we did it a few times to hear different perspectives.

All advice was the same, use as much of other peoples (banks) money as you can. Euro rates are low. Put in the minimum ‘apport’ (deposit) that you can and go for something well run, well maintained, well invested and above all proven to be capable of turning a decent profit. It was reassuring as it is common sense.

Covid has confused things somewhat. Most campsites (in fact all except Brit owned sites those who specialised in Brits) in France have done exceptionally well in 2021 and 2022. Some that were highly reactive even did really well in 2020. Campsites with their space were the natural choice for holidays during pandemics…..

It means that profits and asking prices are too high across the board. We have only made offers based on CA 2016-2019 where available, which is usually 25-50% lower than 2021-22. It’s why none of our offers have been accepted, including the big old run down site. That one turned over average 300 2016-19, last 2 years it’s 400.

It’s all artificial, inflated, but some are paying, there are many in our position, decided to change life after realising there’s more to life than the inside of an office and a 2hr commute.

For those who can’t understand why we would get into debt for the right opportunity, perhaps it’s an age or generational thing. It’s easy to say that when you are retired and you have made all your cash already - not that we are knocking being retired, we just need to work another few years to get there. Bea is 41…

 

[Abacist]

I think Fench campsites are also going through the process that the British did years ago and putting mobile homes on what were campsites. Whether these are let out on a weekly basis or sold onto let out plots I have no idea but that has happened to a number of sites that we used to use in the Charente-Maritime.

The business model used by Mother Iveys, near Padstow is very financially successful as you have to buy everything from the site owner from the mobile home to insuring it and he decides if it has to be replaced after 10 years or so if its starting to look scruffy giving him another sale at full retail price plus ever increasing plot rentals and because its holiday accommodation you can't even use it all of the year because of planning restrictions!

 

[Landy Andy]

Sounds like you know the market, and the trade well. Good luck to you, and keep us informed how it is going.

We have thought about a campsite in France, but would definitely want to stay away from it being an English destination. Also considered heading more in the glamping side. Less people but higher charges.

 

[Brains]

The best located sites are always the naturist sites, we are close to making an offer on a couple, but there is always the worry associated with building a seasonal business from scratch, non naturist, all new clientele again. It takes time, years, to build up, as much of the business is repeat, humans are creatures of habit.

If the best sites are the naturist sites, then why not stay as a naturist site ?
(Or do naturists not have deep pockets ? )

I'd guess naturists prefer to stay on site, which would be good for turnover in the bar, pool, shop etc.
I'd also presume you don't get much in the way of trouble, as it's all couples and families.
The only downside of naturist sites is I'd presume the season is shorter.

 

[dawsey]

Sounds like you know the market, and the trade well. Good luck to you, and keep us informed how it is going.

We have thought about a campsite in France, but would definitely want to stay away from it being an English destination. Also considered heading more in the glamping side. Less people but higher charges.

In our very first post, “full time through winter in search of new life” we mentioned that we are after developing exactly that, glamping. Ideally I also want an aire d’camping car, as I am very well aware that you guys, like me, are happy to stay on a relatively cheap aire, but don’t want or need all the stuff that young families do. We really want to be able to cater for you guys, as you represent an important part of the business - the out of season or shoulder element. We have a clear vision in mind, we also had a clear vision of the type of location. We have just been given a good dose of reality. What we could have afforded just a few years ago has been KO by the double whammy of a collapsed pound and pandemic-inflated values. For those reasons, our cash only goes half as far as it would have done, forcing us to borrow.

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[yodeli]

it's failed for reason

Not always for bad reasons such as : the people don't know a thing about running such a thing. It can be for many different "human"reasons... Cancer stops someone's willing, a couple who splits up makes you feel down, children growing up don't want it anymore and make your life a hell.... Plenty of reasons indeed. I would have liked to know at least the area, to anticipate more. dawsey Just read the first page up to now, lack of time...!
Edit: Do you want it for motorhomers only???

 

[dawsey]

The best located sites are always the naturist sites, we are close to making an offer on a couple, but there is always the worry associated with building a seasonal business from scratch, non naturist, all new clientele again. It takes time, years, to build up, as much of the business is repeat, humans are creatures of habit.

If the best sites are the naturist sites, then why not stay as a naturist site ?
(Or do naturists not have deep pockets ? )

I'd guess naturists prefer to stay on site, which would be good for turnover in the bar, pool, shop etc.
I'd also presume you don't get much in the way of trouble, as it's all couples and families.
The only downside of naturist sites is I'd presume the season is shorter.

Because you have to be a naturist, the staff ideally also have to be naturists (if living onsite, naturist sites are remote). Naturist sites, for that reason, struggle much more to get staff than other sites, who are all struggling for staff anyway.

I ain’t knocking em, but we aren’t naturists, and have no intention of becoming naturists.

 

[WillH]

C, always , staying 1 to 5 nights depending on how we like the area. Pool is nice, bar not really needed, Boulangerie nearby or delivery to site.

 

[dawsey]

Not always for bad reasons such as : the people don't know a thing about running such a thing. It can be for many different "human"reasons... Cancer stops someone's willing, a couple who splits up makes you feel down, children growing up don't want it anymore and make your life a hell.... Plenty of reasons indeed. I would have liked to know at least the area, to anticipate more. dawsey Just read the first page up to now, lack of time...!
Edit: Do you want it for motorhomers only???

Absolutely right. The big old run down site had an opportunity due to some poor soul being diagnosed with cancer and dying 4 months later. It’s why it is often not so good to leap in quick with strong opinions. We have tried to make it clear we are only seeking to understand better what sort of places you guys like to stay at…

 

[yodeli]

Perhaps I shouldn’t have been so frivolous, negative in my description,

I would not say this. I'd say you've pointed out only English'way and foreigners'way to see the use of a campsite. You will be in France with..... French as well!!! And some might want to spend a week end, or a week , in a QUIET place, with a tent or a caravan WITHOUT children as there's no real entertainement for them. I, would deffo come to such a place as I did 2 years ago going to a small and isolated campsite, in need of calm and NO children!

BreweryDave
Come on Dave , come along , you know all about this!!!

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[yodeli]

What an absolutely fabulous idea. I will have a hard think about that.

You can also contact "les compagnons du devoir" or "les compagnons du tour de France" schools , if you have some very specific job to be done by specialists. They learn all the building trades and crafts and they need to do some training. Work is free, I think you must feed them. And to your wife:" Envoie moi un mess privé qd tu as le tps, pour voir si le déroulement de ta pensée sur le sujet est conforme aux risques actuels , tant par les textes de loi que par l'environnement". @+

 

[Landy Andy]

In our very first post, “full time through winter in search of new life” we mentioned that we are after developing exactly that, glamping. Ideally I also want an aire d’camping car, as I am very well aware that you guys, like me, are happy to stay on a relatively cheap aire, but don’t want or need all the stuff that young families do. We really want to be able to cater for you guys, as you represent an important part of the business - the out of season or shoulder element. We have a clear vision in mind, we also had a clear vision of the type of location. We have just been given a good dose of reality. What we could have afforded just a few years ago has been KO by the double whammy of a collapsed pound and pandemic-inflated values. For those reasons, our cash only goes half as far as it would have done, forcing us to borrow.

When we have considered it, we also wanted to include motorhomes, but soon discounted them due to the availability of cheep/free stops, and the fact they don’t like to be separated from their money, which will eventually ruin the aire system, but until it does it is hard to compete with. Glampers apear to be the opposite and just want everything and pay very well for it, also provides a longer holiday season.

Many campsites have not the nicest neighbours, or areas, but are often busy/fully booked. People don’t necessarily look into this. They look at pictures and reviews.

 

[dawsey]

You can also contact "les compagnons du devoir" or "les compagnons du tour de France" schools , if you have some very specific job to be done by specialists. They learn all the building trades and crafts and they need to do some training. Work is free, I think you must feed them. And to your wife:" Envoie moi un mess privé qd tu as le tps, pour voir si le déroulement de ta pensée sur le sujet est conforme aux risques actuels , tant par les textes de loi que par l'environnement". @+

I am able to understand French, if that’s what that was. I just asked her and she politely declines to message you. She says she does not think she would be able to understand you in either French or English

 

[Solwaybuggier]

In July/August there are plenty of French caravans and motorhomes on the campsites. And Dutch especially. Holland must seem empty.

We thought like that one year when we were still tied to school holiday,and decided that if all the Dutch were in France, it must be deserted in the Netherlands. Big mistake - it was heaving.

 

[Tea Bag]

think u might have it. Can u remember where?

Hi.
It was a long time ago,pre 2009...so 07-08 'ish. The " Calvados Region " keeps coming up in the frame,i will look up all the Castel sites in that area and see if it rings bells. Again,Best of Luck.
Tea Bag

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[yodeli]

I am able to understand French, if that’s what that was. I just asked her and she politely declines to message you. She says she does not think she would be able to understand you in either French or English

OK .
By the way a, b, c and d

 

[dawsey]

Hi.
It was a long time ago,pre 2009...so 07-08 'ish. The " Calvados Region " keeps coming up in the frame,i will look up all the Castel sites in that area and see if it rings bells. Again,Best of Luck.
Tea Bag

No, it isn’t in Normandy. Even if I was happy to I cant just divulge and put the information in the public domain (social media). Part of the agreement signed with the agents is an NDA. It’s also the reason you don’t see everything advertised, and if you do, if it’s via agent (still the french way, irritatingly because those buggers charge a fortune and are useless) it’s very often just one photo with not even enough information to work out anything. You have to contact the agent, satisfy them you are genuine, sign the agreement and NDA, then they provide details, location and accounts and organise visits. Owners don’t want a) their time wasted, and b) it to become commonly known among their prospective customers that the site is for sale.

 

[Just smiffy]

I am able to understand French, if that’s what that was. I just asked her and she politely declines to message you. She says she does not think she would be able to understand you in either French or English

Is it me or am I reading that as a bit rude or no manners to someone who is trying to help you from France

If it is I hope your customer services will be better when your running a site…

 

[chaser]

Is it me or am I reading that as a bit rude or no manners to someone who is trying to help you from France

If it is I hope your customer services will be better when your running a site…

I saw that also but with the addition of a smiley I was hoping it was meant to be funny.

 

[yodeli]

Well I took it as I read it, quite offending. As far as I am concerned... I will stop here my contribution to this thread, I have tried to help with time I haven't got. Never mind. . I hope my last answer .... a, b, c, d, is not too difficult for any brain to understand, and just in case, it's the same in French.

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