I don’t have a heating mat, but, I just disable charging below 4C. I would not drive or stay in a freezing van, that’s not a issue even without a heating mat. It only becomes a issue when van sits for months unattended, and it needs the power. Then a heating mat or heated battery as already mentioned, it’s the solution, to allow it to charge. Small draw for router, tracker or camera, it’s ok down to -20C, but charging only above 4~5C.
Lithium vs. Conventional Batteries: Which is Better?
- Thread starter our poppy llll
- Start date
runrig
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Was undecided which suppler to go with, queried price difference with roamer re fogstar decided to go with roamer awaiting delivery. Please see their response below.
| Roamer |
| Hi Michael, sorry for slow reply. I appreciate they look very similar but yes, there are a lot of small differences and if you open one up then you'll see its a very different battery. We have serviceable cases, copper flexible busbars instead of cables, engineered cell brackets instead of tape and foam packing, a separate active balancing module and high power 250A BMS. We also have a big support team here too including 3 full time electrical engineers and 2 tech support, a service centre, warehouse and office. It's easy to offer a 10 year warranty but supporting it takes a big investment and we do all the design, support and distribution from here in Leeds. No problem with Fogstar by the way, as a budget battery they seem decent quality. We are simply serving a different market - we aim to build the highest quality batteries we can, and sell at a mid range price. |
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Aren't Roamer the ones who limit the warranty on the BMS to just 1 year? That is not an indication of "the highest quality battery" to me.
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Conventional battery inefficiency in cold weather only apparent if battery is already significantly destroyed by sulphating and that is rapidly made worse by over discharging. It is false economy to use just one inefficient conventional battery.
You can argue as much as you want to do but the facts DO SAY otherwise. At the end of the day it's still a free choice....... for the moment at least‽
“All the rest of the equipment one has to change”? The only equipment I have added is a B2B and I needed that because the motorhome I had at the time had a smart alternator not because I changed to a LiFePO4 battery. I transferred the B2B to my new motorhome and would have done so even if I had kept the original Gel battery because it is the best way of getting a full charge whilst driving.So now, if one is converting to lithium, as well as all the rest of the equipment one has to change, one also needs a heat mat. Get more expensive all the time?
I have not changed the original mains charger. It does not have a lithium profile but I use a lead setting that slightly undercharges the the battery which does no harm whatsoever. I don’t need a full battery when on EHU. I have not fitted a heating mat, if the battery is too cold to charge it is certainly too cold to stay in the motorhome.
Many people are driving around in motorhomes with lead batteries unaware that the standard engine charging and mains charging arrangements may be slowly wrecking the battery. My first motorhomes certainly had nothing that optimised battery charging, just a 12V supply. The introduction of LiFePO4 batteries has just highlighted that all batteries need proper charging according to their chemistry. AGM need higher voltages, Gel need longer charging periods and LiFePo4 should not be heavily charged below freezing. Different but no more demanding and probably better protected having a BMS.
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I use my van 12months a year, and it can be nice and cosy in the habitation area but often, not in the front driving area under where the starter battery is situated + some vehicles with Lithium, sit in storage over winter and only get put on EHU occasionally to charge battery that have run down because of the vans security. One has, by the sound of it, to be careful, when this recharge, happens if it cannot be done below +4-5C, but what do I know except that it seems far more complicated (and expensive) than what I have at the moment and I like a simple life.
My original battery lasted 7 years a single lead acid how was that false economy?
Are you sure about that statement? True, I know little about electrics but, in all my plant/truck mechanic years, we were always told that a battery's power (even new ones) were far less efficient, before use, in freezing conditions? This also seemed to be the situation when my Coaches (with brand new batteries) were on Ski Tours in the Alps and beyond?
I think the situation is, that people with Lithium are convinced that their outlay IS justified (it probably is if you already own a newish vehicle) and it's the best thing since sliced bread, and most of the rest of us are convinced it is not worth the expense and complications. Isn't it good that we are all different?
PS my habitation batteries are not 'Leisure' batteries, they are the kind used in Golf Buggies as I was informed they were better?
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runrig
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Just a reply re BMS guarantee website states everything is covered for 10 years.
The innovative internal Battery Management System (BMS) with Active Balancing - exclusively developed for Roamer - extends the life of your battery and supports high power off-grid living. Maintaining excellent balance throughout its 15 year life expectancy, the Roamer 230SMART3 delivers stable, high power with each and every cycle.
Our additional factory and warehouse testing processes ensure the highest possible quality and to top it all off, we back everything with a 10 year warranty. That’s how much we believe in our product.
The innovative internal Battery Management System (BMS) with Active Balancing - exclusively developed for Roamer - extends the life of your battery and supports high power off-grid living. Maintaining excellent balance throughout its 15 year life expectancy, the Roamer 230SMART3 delivers stable, high power with each and every cycle.
Our additional factory and warehouse testing processes ensure the highest possible quality and to top it all off, we back everything with a 10 year warranty. That’s how much we believe in our product.
I think that is KS? Roamer I believe are one of the good guys.
KS ENERGY BATTERY UPDATE & WARRANTY
As some of you will know, Alan recently had problems with his KS energy battery, and in particular the app showing 60 odd percent one minute then battery went flat the next and vice versa. Alan sent it back to KS energy for the battery to be tested. Its just been tested and below is his reply...
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funflair
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The best battery is the one that meets your needs and that could be based on weight, cost, user profile existing technology in van etc etc, we specced a new van so LiFePO4 seemed a sensible option 
we then changed the way we use the van to take account of the extra power we had, so basically gas kettle in the bin, air conditioning wired to the inverter, induction cooker outside and anything else we want on 240v, overkill ? absolutely the next one I think I would go for even more solar more LiFePO4 and full induction cooking inside, possibly diesel heating and get rid of gas completely.
we then changed the way we use the van to take account of the extra power we had, so basically gas kettle in the bin, air conditioning wired to the inverter, induction cooker outside and anything else we want on 240v, overkill ? absolutely the next one I think I would go for even more solar more LiFePO4 and full induction cooking inside, possibly diesel heating and get rid of gas completely.Totally agree . For others it could be a very cheap simple installation does the job.The best battery is the one that meets your needs and that could be based on weight, cost, user profile existing technology in van etc etc, we specced a new van so LiFePO4 seemed a sensible option
Coolcats
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My leisure batteries 2X 95ah now 5 years in and meet our needs, if they went tomorrow I would just replace like for like and save a wedge.The best battery is the one that meets your needs and that could be based on weight, cost, user profile existing technology in van etc etc, we specced a new van so LiFePO4 seemed a sensible option
So as others have said buy what you need and how you use. I suspect if I was ordering from new I may well have lithium but over XX years that may cost in
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The issue was with the KS Energy battery you are correct. But someone then checked on other manufacturers T&C's and found the same exclusion, virtually word for word, on Roamer. Check out post #11 on the thread you linked to.I think that is KS? Roamer I believe are one of the good guys.
KS ENERGY BATTERY UPDATE & WARRANTY
As some of you will know, Alan recently had problems with his KS energy battery, and in particular the app showing 60 odd percent one minute then battery went flat the next and vice versa. Alan sent it back to KS energy for the battery to be tested. Its just been tested and below is his reply...
Fogstar, the third option people on this forum rave about, don't mention any exclusions like that. (And Alpha Batteries, who I subsequently asked directly if they have any similar exclusions replied back basically saying 'absolutely not' and that they have never seen such an exclusion from a battery supplier before).
I use my van 12months a year, and it can be nice and cosy in the habitation area but often, not in the front driving area under where the starter battery is situated + some vehicles with Lithium, sit in storage over winter and only get put on EHU occasionally to charge battery that have run down because of the vans security. One has, by the sound of it, to be careful, when this recharge, happens if it cannot be done below +4-5C, but what do I know except that it seems far more complicated (and expensive) than what I have at the moment and I like a simple life.
This low temperature charging issue really is overplayed; decent LiFePo4 batteries have inbuilt heaters and operate entirely automatically.
What happens IF the temperature is low is that the BMS sends the incoming charging supply to the heaters (there is no additional drain on the battery) and, as the battery temperature rises, more of the charge current is used to charge the battery.
There really is no complication around this perceived issue/weakness.
Ian
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Why do my Lithium drill batteries not last very long??
funflair
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Check the "exp" in your avatar
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Lenny HB
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My cheapo Lidl SDS drill is over 10 years old still like new.
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I bought a job lot of 10 used Worx professional drills about 10 years ago (£10 off Ebay - those were the days). I kill about 1 every 3 years so still a big enough supply to not worry about changing drill bits over whilst working. I bought a swanky pair of new Lithium batteries about 3 years ago when the best of the original 10 batteries said no way. The new batteries were great for about 18 months and are still OK but two don't last a day any more.My cheapo Lidl SDS drill is over 10 years old still like new.
Lenny HB
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When I was working pattern batteries didn't last anywhere near as long as the OEM ones.
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Is that for KS or Roamer? I aam presuminging Roamer given the wording.
However Roamer still say:
"Please note that Bluetooth is not an essential feature for battery operation and any issues with Bluetooth (no signal or weak signal for example) are not covered under warranty." on their website (https://roamer.com/pages/warranty)
Seems to not match the "we back everything with a 10 year warranty" wouldn't you say? Companies really need to avoid having contradictory statements, it makes it hard to know what to believe.
Sadly it makes me think they have just discovered a common weakness in the Bluetooth module and are trying to cover their backsides. Am I being too cynical?
I know I'm cynical but that's exactly what I thought when I read it, 'there can be a lot of difference between what is said and what is written! '
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Ryobi one+ lithium 12 years currently going strong and charged hundreds of timesMy cheapo Lidl SDS drill is over 10 years old still like new.
Oh, I missed that. I just remembered it wasn't Roamer the thread was about but about KS. I didn't re-read it and didn't remember it affected Roamer as well.
Thanks for that.
Perhaps not one of the good guys after all. It is a seriously bad thing excluding bluetooth like that in my opinion. Very underhanded.
No I don't think it is cynical. But if it is a known issue and they market their batteries as serviceable. The bluetooth modules are dirt cheap, they should be able to replace them under warranty. Especially considering how much they are charging for their batteries.
Especially when they say things like what they said to runrig in post #62...
They say their batteries are serviceable. Sideway pop at others who seal them.
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I find it hard to accept that they have a known issue which is known so much that a company changes their warranty to accomodate an issue. They instead need to fix the issue by using a better quality part or if not available drop that feature entirely. it is not acceptable to promote a feature (monitoring battery SOC via bluetooth) if the thing that allows that feature is so flaky they exclude it from their Warranty.
For me, that makes the product unbuyable and the company untrustworthy.
I honestly don't think there is any real reason nowadays to have a Lithium battery case sealed that it cannot be disassembled. I think when they first came on the market, Lithiums just reused existing cases for Lead Acid, and so heat-welded (I would guess?) was fair enough as that was the method for the case, but when they started using custom cases specifically for Lithium, that is when it makes sense for all parties for them to have removable tops.
I posted this on the other thread of a photo of my current and previous Lithiums, but this type of case fixing should be the norm by now
IMG_20220503_144132_3 by David, on Flickr
I think we are agreeing.
I understand where you are coming from on this. But the other view is. Sealing it prevents users tinkering and potentially breaking things in a dangerous way. If you make it trivial for a user to gain access it is more likely they will open it. If it is sealed they may think twice as it will most definitely void their warranty. I personally would prefer if it was user serviceable, but that probably proves the pointI honestly don't think there is any real reason nowadays to have a Lithium battery case sealed that it cannot be disassembled. I think when they first came on the market, Lithiums just reused existing cases for Lead Acid, and so heat-welded (I would guess?) was fair enough as that was the method for the case, but when they started using custom cases specifically for Lithium, that is when it makes sense for all parties for them to have removable tops.
I posted this on the other thread of a photo of my current and previous Lithiums, but this type of case fixing should be the norm by now
IMG_20220503_144132_3 by David, on Flickr
But at a £231 price difference I would happy with a sealed unit to be honest especially if they are confident in their bluetooth module.
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