Lithium? The big con?

[haganap]

Or am I expecting to much,

Or am I in the dark? No literally "I'm in the dark"

So I must be doing something wrong.....maybe I'm reading my stats wrong.

Bear in mind, I've been motorhoming for 20 plus years. My set up prior to this van was simply for 10 years, two x 120 amp batteries and an effoy, nothing more nothing less.

My set up on my new van that we've had since March is 3 x 110 victron lithium batteries,3 kw victron inverter charger, 200w of solar no B2B smart alternator. Never ever needed to think about power before, most places we stay a couple of nights, nikki uses hair dryer and we cook with an air fryer without issue.

We came away Friday, stopped the night in Stratford upon Avon, no hook up, arrived fully charged, lived our best lives and had an air fryer meal. I noticed we had hammered the batteries a bit, I noticed I was only putting in about 20-30 amps and the journey from Stratford to Portsmouth wouldn't be enough time arrive fully charged. I turned off the fridge, managed to get the charging rate up to 40 amps and arrived at Portsmouth with 98 percent battery.

We have stayed 3 nights with tonight being our 3rd and already the batteries are saying low charge. This set up comes in at over 8k factory fitted so I'm unsure why I'm in the dark?

My draw is about 3 to 4 amps even with everything seemingly switched off.
Nikki washed and dried her hair yesterday, we watched a bit of avtex tv.

How come I have had the worst performance ever when camping in the depth of winter?
Other than increasing the capacity to more than I have ever ever had, am i sat in the dark?

Seems to me I should have simply ordered two led acid batteries with an efoy?

Complete load of dreamers out there selling these off grid solutions to put you in a place that could have been achieved cheaper in the first place. Might be alright if you are slumming it in Spain l, but clearly we don't, but I would have expected to not have to worry for 4 nights away in winter in the UK...

Lithium "ain't all that" prove me wrong or tell me there's something wrong.
Or am

i misreading something?

 

[Tombola]

3 way fridge running from batteries ?
Knock 70 + amps per day( guestimate)

Inverter left on 20 + amps per day.

 

[Raul]

You don't use the right metrics, 3 nights could mean anything. Energy in and energy out stands; its clear that you are a heavy user, batteries can but your re charging is not on par with your use.
What you take out, you must put in, the batteries are just storage. And if you used your old batteries as you do use the lithium now, they would of been of the cliff rapid.

 

[Lenny HB]

Would help if you put a photo up of the battery setting on your shunt.

With a Smart alternator you will never much of a charge into the leisure battery without a B2B also not advisable to use a split charge relay to charge a Lithium. You should always use a B2B this will give a correct charge and protect the alternator.

Solar will do naff all this time of year in the UK but even in Spain you need a lot more than 200watts to charge 330ah of Lithium.
Big advantage of lithium is they can be charged quickly but you have to have the means to do it.

Your 3000va Victron Multiplus if left on will draw 1.4 amps in standard mode or about 0..9 amps in AES mode there is a search mode which draws less than 0.4 amps, you need a Mk3 USB Dongle and a laptop to set these.

Sounds like your fridge might be on the same circuit as the mains sockets so if the fridge is on "Auto" and the inverter is on it will run on mains from the inverter drawing about 15 amps.

 

[Abacist]

Air fryers are very heavy users via the inverter!

You need a B2B and a non Smart alternator!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[LostInSpace]

Seems to me I should have simply ordered two led acid batteries with an efoy?

Or, maybe, skipped the big Inverter, Hair Dryer, Air Fyer, Compressor Fridge and TV.

 

[Raul]

To be fair a smart alternator on regenerative breaking, without B2B can damage the bms on unregulated voltage spikes. And most of the time, the alternator is on standby doing nothing.

 

[fred_jb]

It wasn't clear from where you said "no B2B smart alternator" whether or not your alternator is the smart type. If so, then as others have said you need a B2B to get a consistent high level of charging from it. My air fryer draws a bit over 120A though it goes on and off a bit with its thermostat, but worst case 15 mins use will consume 30Ah from whatever I have in my 300Ah of capacity. I am a bit puzzled as to why your display, presumably from some form of shunt, states you have an average discharge of 133AH, presumably between recharges, which seems quite a lot, but I suppose is maybe only 4 or 5 air fried meals! It also shows a maximum starter battery voltage of 5.65V which does not seem right. Does your shunt have a voltage sense cable connected to the starter battery. If so you should maybe check that this is making a good connection.

I have a similarly specced setup which cost a lot less than £8k, probably less than £2k, and this charges at a rate of 50A while driving, and 50A from its mains charger. The current with everything turned off, including the inverter, is about 0.45A, which I am not particularly happy with as it takes around 3% out of the battery capacity every day. If the inverter is switched on but not being used it takes an additional 1A. I think you must have something seriously draining current somewhere to be taking 4.36A with everything turned off. If I am doing my sums correctly this equates to 104Ah over 24 hrs - so over 30% of your battery capacity is being drained every day. I would treat finding and eliminating this as a priority.

 

[Googlebot]

We don’t use the inverter this time of year, solar gives nothing either.

A short hair dry can take 25 amps out, cook with the air fryer for 15 minutes and that’s another 50ish amps gone.

Put simply, if you use high wattage appliances without putting lots back in, you will chug through the power.

Makes no difference the battery, you would have also flattened a lead acid setup, but much quicker. :-(

 

[CazPaul]

Winter camping in the Uk or anywhere for that matter you haven’t realised until now how good the efoy was for you. Your efoy would have kicked in silently working away.
We had a built in Dometic tec 29 on a van once, press of button whilst sat inside, freezing cold, dark and snowing outside and mains power/charging immediately. I wish we still had it, the built in genny not the van.

I agree with you though when you look at the sales marketing, off grid power companies etc, you don’t need hook up, be independent etc it makes people think it’s better than it really is.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[1967bowesj]

I agree with you though when you look at the sales marketing, off grid power companies etc, you don’t need hook up, be independent etc it makes people think it’s better than it really is.

How many years did everyone get by without 240v when travelling, now its all the rage. Most set ups can work well but even those on here that are more tech minded than me have come to realise they needed a bigger battery bank to feed their 240 use.
When you look at spending 8k on lithium I would want more than 3 days out of it mind, there must be some draw thats sucking it down in the ops case

 

[CazPaul]

How many years did everyone get by without 240v when travelling, now its all the rage. Most set ups can work well but even those on here that are more tech minded than me have come to realise they needed a bigger battery bank to feed their 240 use.
When you look at spending 8k on lithium I would want more than 3 days out of it mind, there must be some draw thats sucking it down in the ops case

It’s not entirely the draw that’s the issue he would have had roughly the same draw in his previous Motorhome.
it’s the fact that’s there’s no means of charging them back up after 2/3 days use, like I say his efoy would have been working silently away charging the batteries back up. It’s the UK winter, it’s cold, dark a lot, raining.

 

[jongood]

Thats almost certainly not how it left the factory so Im not understanding why anyone would think no B2B with a vehicle with a smart alternator is going to work properly because as soon as the engine battery is full the smart alternator will stop charging.

N+b's do tend to be configured so the fridge will work on 12v with engine off so might be worth just checking that.
As long as everything else works Easy answer is fit a B2B.

 

[gus-lopez]

so Im not understanding why anyone would think no B2B with a vehicle with a smart alternator is going to work properly because as soon as the engine battery is full the smart alternator will stop charging.

This ^^ for a start

 

[jumar]

Lithium Fit and Forget or as some say Drop in...is a great misconception...
A fair amount of monitoring and management is required to ensure the system functions to your liking and demand.
A lithium set-up will give you the power you require to maintain an off grid experience...however whatever you take out, you need to put back in...
I have found since converting, that by far the best means of recharging is a B2B...this outstrips my 400w Solar...getting a whopping 50amp whilst on the move...then in a stationary position over 2 or 3 day period the panels can help replenish what you are using, but even here in Spain other than in the main Summer months, the balance is difficult to achieve ...

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Carpmart]

The reason I still only have a small 1300w inverter but with 500A+ of lithium and 600w of roof solar is to not change the mindset of power use! We have electric kettle, air fryer, Starlink (12v), 4K TV etc etc but we are both disciplined with switching the inverter on only when needed.

A 3000w inverter, drives different behaviours both consciously and subconsciously.

 

[Roger S]

Have you run out of gas and the fridge on auto so changed to your leisure batteries. We have 230a lithium and just spent 4 nights up tut north off grid.

 

[buzz1]

I’m definitely Not qualified to comment really,
When the likes of members like Lenny talk electric with there knowledge , I ain’t got a clue,
But I only turn the inverter on when needed to use hair dryer / airfryer ./ coffee machine
Never ever use telly on 230 v /inverter always use 12v lead via batteries for tv ,
I think b2b is a must especially for putting power back in battery fast . Do all cooking /prep work before sun goes down and solar is still active .

 

[Steve and Denise]

Factory fit with no B2B ? Someone at the factory has no idea what they are doing

 

[Ridgeway]

Must admit that I’ve had exactly the same feeling since we’ve got an almost identical set up and this vs running around in a Luton for 10yrs with a single 200w panel and a single 120amp lead acid battery (same one for 10yrs). However when i think back to how frugal we were with the leccy in those days… we used to read outside of the van in the evening by candle light, fridge was never on leccy unless whilst driving, almost nothing else on that consumed any power, maybe the piezo spark to start the hob

Now it’s like a cross between Blackpool illuminations and that scene from National Lampoon’s Christmas vacation when he switches on the house decorations. We too seem to some how have less power that we had in our simple set up, or should i say that we simply just use LOADS more power that I’m some how ashamed of, need to re-educate ourselves in 2025 me thinks, i blame the kids

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Ridgeway]

PS I’m sure there’s a B2B installed on Paul’s Arto

 

[haganap]

You don't use the right metrics, 3 nights could mean anything. Energy in and energy out stands; its clear that you are a heavy user, batteries can but your re charging is not on par with your use.
What you take out, you must put in, the batteries are just storage. And if you used your old batteries as you do use the lithium now, they would of been of the cliff rapid.

Would help if you put a photo up of the battery setting on your shunt.

With a Smart alternator you will never much of a charge into the leisure battery without a B2B also not advisable to use a split charge relay to charge a Lithium. You should always use a B2B this will give a correct charge and protect the alternator.

Solar will do naff all this time of year in the UK but even in Spain you need a lot more than 200watts to charge 330ah of Lithium.
Big advantage of lithium is they can be charged quickly but you have to have the means to do it.

Your 3000va Victron Multiplus if left on will draw 1.4 amps in standard mode or about 0..9 amps in AES mode there is a search mode which draws less than 0.4 amps, you need a Mk3 USB Dongle and a laptop to set these.

Sounds like your fridge might be on the same circuit as the mains sockets so if the fridge is on "Auto" and the inverter is on it will run on mains from the inverter drawing about 15 amps.

Air fryers are very heavy users via the inverter!

You need a B2B and a non Smart alternator!

Winter camping in the Uk or anywhere for that matter you haven’t realised until now how good the efoy was for you. Your efoy would have kicked in silently working away.
We had a built in Dometic tec 29 on a van once, press of button whilst sat inside, freezing cold, dark and snowing outside and mains power/charging immediately. I wish we still had it, the built in genny not the van.

I agree with you though when you look at the sales marketing, off grid power companies etc, you don’t need hook up, be independent etc it makes people think it’s better than it really is.

Thats almost certainly not how it left the factory so Im not understanding why anyone would think no B2B with a vehicle with a smart alternator is going to work properly because as soon as the engine battery is full the smart alternator will stop charging.

N+b's do tend to be configured so the fridge will work on 12v with engine off so might be worth just checking that.
As long as everything else works Easy answer is fit a B2B.

This ^^ for a start

I'm sorry all.and I don't mean to be rude as I am trying to do this in a jovial way. But what you are all saying is simply wrong. Other than CazPaul and jongood


You are all saying i need a B2B . I simply don't. And here's why..
The vehicle is a culmination of N&B and Victron working together. I don't know it doesn't have one only merely the amps it puts in which i have described isn't great.

Some may have misread my post so I will make it clearer..

I used the air fryer one night before we moved on to Portsmouth. Heavy battery usage was replaced.. I increased the amps to battery by switching off the fridge taking the input on the journey from 27amps to 47 amps whilst driving..

I arrived with practically full batteries. I could install a 100000 gigawatt b2b, it would make no difference, I would still have arrived with practically the same SOC.

So no, I'm happy to go with the Victron N&B collaboration because I've used it since March without issue, spending a week off grid in the longer days and more than that when I've moved around touring.

Those saying that I would be dead on lead aacid , wrong. I've had a set up for over 10 years using nothing but 2 banner 110s a b2b and an Efoy that I bought second hand off here for few hundred quid fitted with various all socket live inverters.

I can point you to various adverts from various companies, selling a dream that doesn't exist..

Off grid power solutions for those that never want a hook up again..

It's pie in the sky... if this is my experience for 4 very short winter nights in the UK then it's definitely a pipe dream...

It's all about how you motorhome and people need to be far more aware of that before they think summer and winter living in the UK are the same.

thankfully my kit was already installed, but the first thing I'm putting in is a modern lithium capable Efoy when I get home. I will then never have this issue again for the few nights I'm away in the deepest darkest depths of the UK where I can watch TV dry Nikkis Hair and eat steak out the Air fyer to my hearts content..

Wish Nikki luck for the NYE party hair do day.

But Lithium? It ain't all that...

 

[Lenny HB]

N+b's do tend to be configured so the fridge will work on 12v with engine off so might be worth just checking that.

Should only work on 12v with manual selection not on auto.

 

[Wanders from Glos]

We are away at the moment using lithium and no EHU. It’s more of an experiment to see how we get on and will be four days. So far so good, battery is 85%.

 

[Steve and Denise]

I'm sorry all.and I don't mean to be rude as I am trying to do this in a jovial way. But what you are all saying is simply wrong. Other than CazPaul and jongood


You are all saying i need a B2B . I simply don't. And here's why..
The vehicle is a culmination of N&B and Victron working together. I don't know it doesn't have one only merely the amps it puts in which i have described isn't great.

Some may have misread my post so I will make it clearer..

I used the air fryer one night before we moved on to Portsmouth. Heavy battery usage was replaced.. I increased the amps to battery by switching off the fridge taking the input on the journey from 27amps to 47 amps whilst driving..

I arrived with practically full batteries. I could install a 100000 gigawatt b2b, it would make no difference, I would still have arrived with practically the same SOC.

So no, I'm happy to go with the Victron N&B collaboration because I've used it since March without issue, spending a week off grid in the longer days and more than that when I've moved around touring.

Those saying that I would be dead on lead aacid , wrong. I've had a set up for over 10 years using nothing but 2 banner 110s a b2b and an Efoy that I bought second hand off here for few hundred quid fitted with various all socket live inverters.

I can point you to various adverts from various companies, selling a dream that doesn't exist..

Off grid power solutions for those that never want a hook up again..

It's pie in the sky... if this is my experience for 4 very short winter nights in the UK then it's definitely a pipe dream...

It's all about how you motorhome and people need to be far more aware of that before they think summer and winter living in the UK are the same.

thankfully my kit was already installed, but the first thing I'm putting in is a modern lithium capable Efoy when I get home. I will then never have this issue again for the few nights I'm away in the deepest darkest depths of the UK where I can watch TV dry Nikkis Hair and eat steak out the Air fyer to my hearts content..

Wish Nikki luck for the NYE party hair do day.

But Lithium? It ain't all that...

You will get used to it in time Paul

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[funflair]

I don't see the con personally, Lithium is a good way of storing energy and it can be released in big chunks to run stuff off inverters this can also become part of the problem though as you don't always realise just how much it takes to boil a kettle on batteries, never mind air fryer and hair dryer. The simple answer is to regulate your usage to make the stored energy last the duration of standing with no charge.

 

[haganap]

I don't see the con personally, Lithium is a good way of storing energy and it can be released in big chunks to run stuff off inverters this can also become part of the problem though as you don't always realise just how much it takes to boil a kettle on batteries, never mind air fryer and hair dryer. The simple answer is to regulate your usage to make the stored energy last the duration of standing with no charge.

Just the same that I have always done with lead acid batteries over 20 plus years then?

Therefore it's a con.

 

[haganap]

We are away at the moment using lithium and no EHU. It’s more of an experiment to see how we get on and will be four days. So far so good, battery is 85%.

Where are you?

Do you need a hair dryer twice for parties, are you having air fried steak for tea?

 

[Lenny HB]

Easy to get over ambitious with Lithium, we have 460ah with 350 watts of solar & 50 amp B2B.
Our first trip a rally at the beginning of July the first night we used 105 ah, second night got it down to 75 ah. No heating hardly any lights needed but the inverter just being on was using 34 ah a day.

By comparison just finished our 3rd night away, heating been on in morning and most of each evening, TV only on last night. Not used the air fryer or induction hob but using an electric kettle.
We have averaged 45 ah a day and solar input has been non exsistant.

Our 430 ah of Lithium actually gives us 485 ah so we could with care survive up to 10 days off grid at this time of year.

 

[Pausim]

You have been spoilt by having an Efoy in your previous motorhome.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}