Lithium Question

jopparocks

jopparocks

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Hi All I'm thinking of upgrading to lithium as me and swmbo will be retiring soon and the countries we want to go to will probably mean lots of off-grid stops. I've looked at a few threads and know that getting lithium means installing stuff that makes them operate efficiently. I already have a couple of items which came with van when I bought it and wonder if I need anything in addition to these. I think they are a B2B and a solar panel controller (I have two solar panels) pictures attached. What more do you think I'll need?
Cheers
Martin
 

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Ecoflow have designed a complete system they are in the process of introducing. Liam the terrible is one of the first to make a video about it.
 
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I don’t worry about having the an Li mains charger. As long as you use a charging profile that under charges the Li it is not going to cause much harm and when you are on EHU you don’t need a full battery. The B2B is the important bit for making sure your battery is full when you first pitch up somewhere without power. With an Elektroblock you can get a Votronic B2B that feeds directly into the Elektroblock (max 50A) which avoids having to find a way to disable the internal split charge relay.
 
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jopparocks said:
Hi All I'm thinking of upgrading to lithium as me and swmbo will be retiring soon and the countries we want to go to will probably mean lots of off-grid stops. I've looked at a few threads and know that getting lithium means installing stuff that makes them operate efficiently. I already have a couple of items which came with van when I bought it and wonder if I need anything in addition to these. I think they are a B2B and a solar panel controller (I have two solar panels) pictures attached. What more do you think I'll need?
Cheers
Martin
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Hi,

first thing to find out, has your current gear got lithium settings? Many manufacturers fit AGM or Gel setting units, it’s rare to find factory fit lithium profile units.

I would highly recommend installing Victron products. An MPPT smart solar controller to control the solar input and a Smart shunt (tells you the charge and condition of your battery, the current draw, how long the charge will last without topping up etc.).

You then need to know if your onboard charger will support lithium (needs a lithium setting) and if you have a smart alternator installed. If a smart alternator, again you will need a DC to DC with lithium profile. Then if you’re going for two batteries, that may require an extra unit.

Talk to Oak Tree Motorhomes, they specialise in Lithium upgrades and many people on YouTube have posted about them. Also, search YouTube for Gadet John, he did one about lithium upgrade of off grid living.

Hope this helps
 
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tonyidle said:
Anyone else think it's time that an all in one charging solution appeared on the market? To use solar, mains, and the alternator to charge the leisure battery (of any chemistry) one 'needs' a mains charger with the correct charging profile, a solar controller with the same, and a B2B with the same again. And probably a Battery Master or similar. And yet a 'solar controller' is capable of all these functions other than the Battery Master. A solar controller fed with a supply of 18v - 20v unregulated DC from a simple mains PSU will charge the battery correctly. Feed it with the output of your panels at the same time, and the boosted o/p of the alternator and it will not know the difference. One device with the correct charge profile for your battery instead of three should be better than the alternatives and would simplify the charging system somewhat.

On a related subject what exactly is the 'correct' charging profile for a LiFeP04 battery? The manufacturer of my cells specifies charge voltage and max charge current and nothing else (related to charging). The complication arises from an attempt to float them which means choosing a mid-charge voltage so the van runs off that on EHU instead of depleting the battery - which means when leaving the EHU the battery will be at a state of charge determined by the float voltage chosen and have to rely on the alternator or solar to become fully charged. Presumably the 'bulk' charge would only occur if the cells were discharged below float prior to connecting to the next EHU. I'm using the standard EBL charger on gel setting + a 14.65v 30A boost charger (simple PSU) switched manually if required.
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Lenny HB hoping for your input🙂
 
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tonyidle said:
On a related subject what exactly is the 'correct' charging profile for a LiFeP04 battery?
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As far as I can make out, every LiFeP04 manufacturer does it differently - there's no One Answer. The Chinese ones seem to give minimal information. My TN Power battery data sheet just says 14.6V at the constant-voltage stage. That particular voltage is not an option on my CTEK Solar/B2B or my Victron charger, but the good news is that it all seems to work Ok, without burning... :whistle:
 
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If I've got it right and please correct me if I'm wrong there are three sources of power to charge lead or lithium batteries; Solar panels, Alternator, and Mains and for each of these a particular charger is needed with specialist chargers for lithium.
  • For solar the charger would be the MPPT - I have just bought a victron smart solar 100/30 mppt charge controller. I am assuming that this will work fine with my existing lead batteries and will be good for when I get lithium
  • For the mains the charger I would need a new one for lithium. Lenny recommended a Victron IP22 but this will only be needed if I get lithium
  • For the alternator it would be a B2B expensive but can charge the batteries around 5 times faster than normal
Additional items such as a Battery Master which charges the starter battery when the leisure batteries exceed a certain voltage, and additional solar plus of course the lithium battery or batteries

Am I on the right lines here?
 
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jopparocks said:
What more do you think I'll need?
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Looks like you'll pretty much need to start again. Apart from the obvious (B2B, solar MPPT, mains charger) don't forget a good battery monitor and an isolation switch to turn everything off. In other words, unless you're happy speccing up and wiring everything yourself, very expensive.

A couple of points if you do go ahead:

  1. You're unlikely to find a battery with a charging profile that exactly matches whatever your chargers expect. The Victron kit is set up (only) for the Victron battery, for example, and you're very unlikely to want a Victron battery. I don't think this is actually a problem, though
  2. You really don't need vast amounts of solar and battery capacity. I use a 100Ah battery with 150W solar, and I never need EHU in Northern England or Scotland in the summer, with a cheap mains fridge running 24/7 off an inverter. You may need to drive somewhere every 2 or 3 days though. My worst-case overnight scenario is dropping from 100% charge to 84% charge (YMMV if you also run your TV/microwave/jacuzzi off your battery). Having said that, I'll probably go for 200Ah next time, for no good reason
Don't do anything without checking out 'Offgrid Van Life' on youtube.

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EML said:
The Victron kit is set up (only) for the Victron battery, for example, and you're very unlikely to want a Victron battery. I don't think this is actually a problem, though
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It might be a problem because the Victron LiFePO4 battery appears to only want a 14.2V whereas most want at least 14.4V. I noticed this in my Votronic B2B manual which has 3 different LiFePO4 settings.
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jopparocks said:
If I've got it right and please correct me if I'm wrong there are three sources of power to charge lead or lithium batteries; Solar panels, Alternator, and Mains
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Yes. Unless you wind generator as well :)
jopparocks said:
and for each of these a particular charger is needed with specialist chargers for lithium.
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Err.. not really. All modern charging devices support LIFeP04, but not necessarily your LiFeP04. However, the incompatibility is likely to be minor and can probably be ignored. Don't buy three separate devices: you can easily get combined B2B/MPPT controllers, for example, which effectively have a single charger (I use a CTEK D250SE)
jopparocks said:
  • For the mains the charger I would need a new one for lithium. Lenny recommended a Victron IP22 but this will only be needed if I get lithium
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You should consider a combined inverter and charger. Don't over-spec the inverter, though. You'd need a pretty good reason to go to 1KW or above
jopparocks said:
Additional items such as a Battery Master which charges the starter battery when the leisure batteries exceed a certain voltage,
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I can't really see any value in that. A basic Transit already has two batteries, for example, to make sure you can always start. Even if you've only got one, you'll be fine since your B2B won't use the starter battery to run your leisure kit

jopparocks said:
and additional solar plus of course the lithium battery or batteries
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I'm not a fan of over-speccing solar. YMMV.
 
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Pausim said:
It might be a problem because the Victron LiFePO4 battery appears to only want a 14.2V whereas most want at least 14.4V. I noticed this in my Votronic B2B manual which has 3 different LiFePO4 settings.
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It's all a major PITA. When I can get the energy up I'll get the specs out for my CTEK, Victron inverter/charger, and TN battery and post them somewhere - it would be useful to have a record of all this stuff.

I did some design work on USB chargers years ago. The future of LiFeP04 will presumably be the same - the battery will have to report back to the charger what it actually needs, and the charger will try to supply it. The technology is easy, but it will take years for the manufacturers to agree to do it.
 
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jopparocks said:
Am I on the right lines here?
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In a word yes....you have
The other points below this question you asked are going to confuse you even more at this stage.

What you have listed is fine and will work for as long as you want it to.

The ip22 is a good charger all.round.

All the stuff you have listed.is what I have (when you get ks lithium ) I had polinovel before this...and I can stay off grid pretty much indefinitely if I need too.

I'm over specced really but would rather be due to my wife's medical and CPAP gear.

Once you get going the next questions you will ask will be how to wire you internal sockets to be live from inverter ;) when off grid /ehu
 
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tonyidle said:
Lenny HB hoping for your input🙂
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Not in favor of all in one units as if one charging source fails you have lost the lot while it is being repaired or replaced.

There are a couple combined B2B and MPPT solar regulators combined they are at the cheaper end of the market I don't know how good they are.
The Renogy one has a problem that if it detects solar it reduces the alternator charge by 50%.

Providing the Votronic MPPT solar regulator has the right setting for your battery I prefer them to the Victron. They are a dual output with a 1 amp output for starter battery charging which cuts out having to use another unit. Also they have the AES output for the fridge allowing auto switching of the fridge to 12v when there is enough solar.

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I was thinking of something radical needed from one of the top-end suppliers. I take your point about failure but reducing complexity should reduce that possibility. What we have available at the moment is a mish-mash of complex units most of which do the same job that have been produced over a long period as technology and leisure needs have developed. Simplistically, as things are now, every charging source could be connected to the same MPPT regulator (assuming the alternator had a dc-dc converter in line).
 
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The Votronic unit Martin linked to is about the only combined unit I really wouldn't want to put all my eggs in one basket.
 
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Lenny HB said:
The Votronic unit Martin linked to is about the only combined unit I really wouldn't want to put all my eggs in one basket.
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Aghh Lenny I think I'll need to cancel the order now!

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Trying to keep up with all suggestions and have looked into each and every one realising that there are many different routes to where I want to go. I take Lenny's advice on board regarding all eggs in one basket and I am leaning in that direction but Funflair's link has me pondering as the product linked to seems to give me everything I need in one package and reviews suggest it is a good reliable bit of kit.
The VBCS 60/40/430 Triple-CI seems to fit the bill for me and although there doesn't seem to be a lithium profile on it reviews suggest that it can be used with one. I will give them a call about that.
I know in the end it will be my decision but any further thoughts gratefully received.
 
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peterc10 said:
Using one all dancing unit would add to the complexity. As it is each charging unit works in isolation and each has its own charging lead to the batteries. If one goes down the others continue to work.

I am with Lenny HB on this based on the KISS principle.
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I was thinking more of one device with the correct charging profile with all power sources feeding it. The power sources don't need to be included and wouldn't need to be from the same manufacturer. I agree with Lenny HB about simplicity. I can't see any problem with using a solar controller to accept all charging feeds.
 
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Pausim said:
Check out the downloads tab on your link. The operating manual shoes 4 different LiFePO4 profiles from 13.9V to 14.6V.
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Never checked there as I looked at the photo of the unit and it didn't have lifepo4 as one of the options. Thanks.
 
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funflair said:
Hi Lenny

I did wonder about the CSB2 and LiFePO4 but checking CBE web site I can't see anything that say not to, I still don't know why some say no to LiFePO4 though.

EDIT so answering my own question possibly I see that they do a CSB2-LT for Lithium.
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Martin and Lenny, would that CSB2-LT Battery Manager not be the case, if charging a Lithium starter battery, from the leisure batteries, ie, correct rate of charge for Lithium?

I would have thought that the original unit seen on jopparocks's photo could remain, as the excess charge is going to a Gel/SLA/AGM starter battery instead.

Cheers,

Jock. :)

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JockandRita said:
Martin and Lenny, would that CSB2-LT Battery Manager not be the case, if charging a Lithium starter battery, from the leisure batteries, ie, correct rate of charge for Lithium?

I would have thought that the original unit seen on jopparocks's photo could remain, as the excess charge is going to a Gel/SLA/AGM starter battery instead.

Cheers,

Jock. :)
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I would think it is the higher voltage of the lithium leisure battery that would cause a problem with the standard CSB2. It would be permanently charging the lead acid engine battery, even when it was not being charged itself. You could end up with a flat lithium leisure battery and an overcharged/damaged engine battery.
 
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JockandRita said:
Martin and Lenny, would that CSB2-LT Battery Manager not be the case, if charging a Lithium starter battery, from the leisure batteries, ie, correct rate of charge for Lithium?

I would have thought that the original unit seen on jopparocks's photo could remain, as the excess charge is going to a Gel/SLA/AGM starter battery instead.

Cheers,

Jock. :)
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Oops sorry I see that I said Lithium starter battery which I didn't mean of course, Yes indeed Jock the LT version is for Lithium to lead acid starter, it seems to complicate matters by having a signal wire from the 240v mains charger and from the solar, don't know why it needs those as the description still says that it switched at 13.6v unless it thinks that Some lithiums are going to be on float at less than 13.6v.

My understanding is that original CSB-2 should only be used on lead acid.
 
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Pausim said:
I would think it is the higher voltage of the lithium leisure battery that would cause a problem with the standard CSB2. It would be permanently charging the lead acid engine battery, even when it was not being charged itself. You could end up with a flat lithium leisure battery and an overcharged/damaged engine battery.
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Possibly ;) the VB battery master certainly doesn't overcharge as our starter usually sits at about 12.6v without any solar or outside charging source.
 
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funflair said:
Yes indeed Jock (y) it was posted last week I think by Sandra Irnbru but doesn't hurt to bump it again.
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First time I've seen it Martin. I don't have enough time on my hands to keep up with every thread/post. ;)

BTW, I know where the VB Battery Master is, but can you advise me where the CBE unit is installed please? Based on Pausim Paul's post above, if I go down the Lithium route, I'd need to disconnect the CBE Battery Manager. :(

Cheers,

Jock. :)
 
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