Lithium no frills

Hoovie said:
I am not a great fan of the BM1 so not looked in detail. I would be surprised if it was not still fairly usable. I guess what it might be missing is the ability to change the charge efficiency and peukert exponent for fine tuning of the SoC.

There are some quite different opinions about using Relays vs B2Bs with Lithium, and there are people whose opinions I totally respect who are quite happy to use a relay and rely on the Alternator to essential do the current limiting. Personally speaking, I always go for a B2B as a controlled limiting device, especially when installing on an older vehicle where the Alternator may be getting a little tired and the extra extreme load of a Lithium Leisure Battery might tip it over the edge (personal preference).
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Are you an installer if so why would you say this

I would tell them they MUST have some kind of State of Charge Monitor, be it a add-on one such as Victron BMV or NASA Marine BM1

If you're not up on the bm1?
 
The Wino said:
But what to go for more solar? B2B? Shunt battery monitor? Thicker wiring? etc.
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I guess it depends. In my case I have done my research and made the following decisions as I intend to fit LiFePO4 in my Hymer B544 soon, maybe up to 150-200Ah, and to prepare the van I have done the following:

1. Fitted a Smartshunt to let me know the battery state of charge
2. Fitted a 30A mains charger, with a lifepo4 profile, directly to the leisure battery to properly charge when on mains EHU.
3. Fitted a 30A B2B wired directly to the batteries to properly charge batteries while the engine is running and to protect the alternator from the very low resistance presented by lithium.
4. Removed the EBL29 20A internal charger fuse to disable charging the leisure battery via the Electroblock when on EHU
5. Remove the starter battery cable from the back of the EBL effectively disabling the split charging circuit.

My rationale for fitting the B2B and disconnecting the split charging was because 200Ah of lithium can draw up to 100amps while charging (Ecotree 110Ah lifepo4 spec sheet states max charging current of 54Amps). Without the B2B, ~100Amp plus the fridge 12V element current would be supplied via the 50Amp fuse, interconnecting wiring AND the EBL29 split charge relay contacts. The EBL29 split charge relay contacts are rated at 65Amp max!.
 
AgeingAndrew Thanks, that sounds like the right approach, exactly sums up my own problem and would certainly be the best solution for my situation. However, I’m very curious, I would still like to know if anyone has ever seen a Fiat alternator supply over 50Amps in a real world situation?
 
Just an update. We're in France the past 10 days all without ehu. The solar regulator shows dropping to float early afternoon. The battery voltage shows fully charged too. It seems to be all working pretty well. I still haven't got a shunt battery monitor but thinking I'll just carry on as now.
 
The Wino said:
Just an update. We're in France the past 10 days all without ehu. The solar regulator shows dropping to float early afternoon. The battery voltage shows fully charged too. It seems to be all working pretty well. I still haven't got a shunt battery monitor but thinking I'll just carry on as now.
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Sounds like a system fit for you.

I would have been very tempted to upgrade the wires. When you use a load of leccy (for you) and it is recharging just as a precaution I would be tempted o feel temperature of wires while loading for peace of mind.

Enjoy hols and wine

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suavecarve said:
Sounds like a system fit for you.

I would have been very tempted to upgrade the wires. When you use a load of leccy (for you) and it is recharging just as a precaution I would be tempted o feel temperature of wires while loading for peace of mind.

Enjoy hols and wine
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Thanks the wines great!. The thing is I think were unlikely to use a lot of leccy!. I know there's concern about overheating the alternator and wiring if the lithium gets low but at the moment it's all looking good. Ecotree said that the concerns on alternator charging were overdone they had no reported issues.
 
I installed an Ecotree 100ah lithium with Bluetooth. ,So far no issues. When driving the alternator is only putting a minimal charge back into the lithium when we have the fridge on 12 v as that seems to take most of the alternator current.When I switch the fridge to gas and drive the alternator just puts 4 to 5 amps into the Lithium. We can monitor the charging and SOC via the battery Bluetooth. Its Only basic info but it covers what we need to see. (y)
 
wino
A year on - how are you getting along with your 'no frills' lithium set up?

I only ask because this is what I'm hoping to do - if I do all the recommended upgrades to wiring, solar controller, b2b and mains charger, it's likely to double the installation costs [at least].
My CB516 is the early model with no de-sulphurisation mode, so the gel setting is within lithium parameters. The NDS SC15-240 solar controller is only a lowly PWM but you can disable the de-sulphurisation phase.
 
Langtoftlad said:
The NDS SC15-240 solar controller is only a lowly PWM but you can disable the de-sulphurisation phase.
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As you know I am a fan of doing the job properly.

At the very least you should change that solar controller, one of the biggest advantages of Lithium is being able to recharge them quickly that controller will never charge them correctly .
Victron Solar controllers have come down in price by about 30% over recent months so now quite cheap.
 
Lenny HB said:
As you know I am a fan of doing the job properly.

At the very least you should change that solar controller, one of the biggest advantages of Lithium is being able to recharge them quickly that controller will never charge them correctly .
Victron Solar controllers have come down in price by about 30% over recent months so now quite cheap.
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Do the Victrons have split charging capability ie to Leisure batteries and top up vehicle battery.
Which one would you recommend - it's only 120w solar panel on the roof [unlikely to be upgraded due to space constraints]
 
Langtoftlad said:
Do the Victrons have split charging capability ie to Leisure batteries and top up vehicle battery.
Which one would you recommend - it's only 120w solar panel on the roof [unlikely to be upgraded due to space constraints]
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No they are single output so you add a Vanbitz Battery Master to trickle charge the stater battery from the leisure battery. Its only 3 wires.
A Victron 75-10 will handle 140 watts, a 75-15 will handle 220 watts.
 
Langtoftlad said:
Do the Victrons have split charging capability ie to Leisure batteries and top up vehicle battery.
Which one would you recommend - it's only 120w solar panel on the roof [unlikely to be upgraded due to space constraints]
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If you want to charge both leisure and starter batteries have a look at the Votronic MPP 165 Duo Dig.
 
Langtoftlad said:
wino
A year on - how are you getting along with your 'no frills' lithium set up?

I only ask because this is what I'm hoping to do - if I do all the recommended upgrades to wiring, solar controller, b2b and mains charger, it's likely to double the installation costs [at least].
My CB516 is the early model with no de-sulphurisation mode, so the gel setting is within lithium parameters. The NDS SC15-240 solar controller is only a lowly PWM but you can disable the de-sulphurisation phase.
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Whoops this should have been tagged The Wino
 
headlight said:
No they are single output so you add a Vanbitz Battery Master to trickle charge the stater battery from the leisure battery. Its only 3 wires.
A Victron 75-10 will handle 140 watts, a 75-15 will handle 220 watts.
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...and so it starts
Change this, upgrade that, add something else.
Which is exactly what I want to avoid.
Appreciate your input though

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The Wino said:
I think fitting a shunt is a good idea and a lithium setting charger otherwise it's working fine
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Of course it will work, you didn’t need Lithium anyway!

You OP said in 8 years you’d never run out of power with a conventional battery, then a veiled barb about professional retailers “claims” about having to change everything, but you would see how you got on!

Age and original chassis specifications are all different, as is, each installation to get the best out of Lithium batteries, high speed charge and discharge and very low percentage discharge you will very likely need to upgrade some or all ancillary components

The advice a decent professional installer would have give you is not to bother, and you didn’t run out of power using a conventional leisure battery, so pointless virtually doubling your capacity, you have even more unnecessary power available!

That being the case I have no doubt that existing profiles and charging can keep pace with your frugal use.



Then tell someone that installers are talking bollocks and drop a couple of lithiums straight in and the next thing is reading a thread ”Help, no power in France“ about a melted split charge relay to burnt out alternator!

We are all equal on MHF (Thank God) but our vans are not however polite we are! someone’s pride and joy could be a pristine 2010 motorhome, ageless to most on a private plate, but the electrical equipment on it will me a mile away from a new van nearly 14 years newer.
 
eddievanbitz said:
Of course it will work, you didn’t need Lithium anyway!

You OP said in 8 years you’d never run out of power with a conventional battery, then a veiled barb about professional retailers “claims” about having to change everything, but you would see how you got on!

Age and original chassis specifications are all different, as is, each installation to get the best out of Lithium batteries, high speed charge and discharge and very low percentage discharge you will very likely need to upgrade some or all ancillary components

The advice a decent professional installer would have give you is not to bother, and you didn’t run out of power using a conventional leisure battery, so pointless virtually doubling your capacity, you have even more unnecessary power available!

That being the case I have no doubt that existing profiles and charging can keep pace with your frugal use.



Then tell someone that installers are talking bollocks and drop a couple of lithiums straight in and the next thing is reading a thread ”Help, no power in France“ about a melted split charge relay to burnt out alternator!

We are all equal on MHF (Thank God) but our vans are not however polite we are! someone’s pride and joy could be a pristine 2010 motorhome, ageless to most on a private plate, but the electrical equipment on it will me a mile away from a new van nearly 14 years newer.
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I think you're right about not bothering with lithium and if I hadn't got one on the cheap I wouldn't have.
There's a pensions thread on here at the minute and it's really pretty similar to 12 v systems on MH! . Some people go for lots of battery capacity with lots of solar b2b etc others look at what they've got and plan what they're going to use according to what's available.
As you say a boring would if we're all the same!
We bought a boat this year it's the same with that do we fit a calorifer hot water prroper fridge extra batteries autohelm etc. You can spend as much as you like!
 
eddievanbitz said:
Of course it will work, you didn’t need Lithium anyway!

You OP said in 8 years you’d never run out of power with a conventional battery, then a veiled barb about professional retailers “claims” about having to change everything, but you would see how you got on!

Age and original chassis specifications are all different, as is, each installation to get the best out of Lithium batteries, high speed charge and discharge and very low percentage discharge you will very likely need to upgrade some or all ancillary components

The advice a decent professional installer would have give you is not to bother, and you didn’t run out of power using a conventional leisure battery, so pointless virtually doubling your capacity, you have even more unnecessary power available!

That being the case I have no doubt that existing profiles and charging can keep pace with your frugal use.



Then tell someone that installers are talking bollocks and drop a couple of lithiums straight in and the next thing is reading a thread ”Help, no power in France“ about a melted split charge relay to burnt out alternator!

We are all equal on MHF (Thank God) but our vans are not however polite we are! someone’s pride and joy could be a pristine 2010 motorhome, ageless to most on a private plate, but the electrical equipment on it will me a mile away from a new van nearly 14 years newer.
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I apolgise four the tieping as I re-red this, butt woz ti-ping on my phone
 
The Wino said:
I think you're right about not bothering with lithium and if I hadn't got one on the cheap I wouldn't have.
There's a pensions thread on here at the minute and it's really pretty similar to 12 v systems on MH! . Some people go for lots of battery capacity with lots of solar b2b etc others look at what they've got and plan what they're going to use according to what's available.
As you say a boring would if we're all the same!
We bought a boat this year it's the same with that do we fit a calorifer hot water prroper fridge extra batteries autohelm etc. You can spend as much as you like!
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Worse, on my last boat the “options” cost more than our first motorhome!

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The Wino said:
Bad taste boat if no sails!
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I would agree, even worse he has never helmed it himself, but it was a nice day out, he got one of his employees to follow us in a 40ft launch to take us around the mangos. :rofl:
 
The Wino said:
Bad taste boat if no sails!
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I tried the white flappy things but we never seemed to arrive in time to go out for a meal. I even had to tow a becalmed sailing boat across the Grande Rade at Cherbourg because he couldn’t start his engine, he was 36 hours late for his meal out with friends.

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Pausim said:
I tried the white flappy things but we never seemed to arrive in time to go out for a meal. I even had to tow a becalmed sailing boat across the Grande Rade at Cherbourg because he couldn’t start his engine, he was 36 hours late for his meal out with friends.
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Little boats are much more fun, I was the Treasurer of our local Dinghy Sailing Club for 20 years.
 
Lenny HB said:
Little boats are much more fun, I was the Treasurer of our local Dinghy Sailing Club for 20 years.
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I circumnavigated Portsmouth in my little ski boat, try getting a mast under the Portsbrigde Roundabout.
 
When replacing leisure battery with Lithium it is difficult not to chose additional bits of kit. I have a smart alternator so I needed a b to b, I added a 230ah underseat Lithium because I wanted one, and it seemed obvious afterwards to add a battery master to use the power of the 230ah battery to keep the cab battery charged when not using the van. Haven't added solar because I do not need it or want it. (Always on the move so b to b replenishes just fine as does the existing onboard charger if on hook up). Must say the installer was very professional and after listening to how I use the van and what I wanted to achieve tried to talk me out of the Lithium battery, however, he got that I wanted one rather than needed one so all fine.

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