Lithium no frills

[The Wino]

I am one of the winners of the half price ecotree lithium battery draw earlier this year.
My MH came almost 8 years ago new with a 90ah lead acid leisure battery that started to give up the ghost at the end of last year so the lithium battery was very timely. But what to go for more solar? B2B? Shunt battery monitor? Thicker wiring? etc.
As we never went flat with the 90 ah lead acid ( and no solar for the first 5 years) it all sounded a bit ott so I've gone for the least cost simplest route and might modify later if needed.
We have a single 100 w solar panel and luckily I fitted a victron Bluetooth mppt regulator originally, a CB 516 charger and thats about it no b2b no inverter .
I was going to fit the battery myself but the MH was going for an MOT/ service and a quote of£15 to get the seat out and fit Vs a potential back problem decided matters. When I got the van back I set the solar to lithium and left it to charge for a couple of days and today set the charger to gel ( no lithium setting) and plugged in the ehu.
My plan is to monitor the charge state by the leisure battery voltage showing on the victron solar regulator and looking at the solar indicator with a change from bulk to float charging presumably indicating a charged or almost charged battery. After two days on solar alone and half an hour on the mains charger the solar now indicates float and the voltage a charged or almost charged leisure battery.
We're off to France soon off grid for a couple of weeks so I'll update on how things go. I know there will be a lot on here soon predicting dire consequences of this basic approach but it will show if the plug in replacement claims are valid and do remember a lot of electrical kit fitters have a strong financial impetus to recommend a quite expensive complete package.
I might look at a way of charging the vehicle battery from solar the mppt has just one output maybe a battery master or the bit of kit reviewed here the other week designed for lithium.
Here's the stuff I have at the moment

 

[Jamesh]

Why not if you don't have excessive electrical consumption!!

 

[Lenny HB]

If you have no way of monitoring the current in and out of the battery I would get yourself a DC clamp meter. You need to check what's going on with the alternator. I'm not a fan of fitting Lithium without a B2B.
Alo your solar regulator looks like it is not close to the battery and the wire to it look on the small side. I would increase the cable size from the regulator to the battery.

Pardon our interruption...

 

[The Wino]

If you have no way of monitoring the current in and out of the battery I would get yourself a DC clamp meter. You need to check what's going on with the alternator. I'm not a fan of fitting Lithium without a B2B.
Alo your solar regulator looks like it is not close to the battery and the wire to it look on the small side. I would increase the cable size from the regulator to the battery.

Pardon our interruption...

The solar is fitted to the cable prewired in the MH. I know there will be a voltage drop but as I said the first 5 years we had no solar and still no flat battery problems.
I might try a clamp meter just to see what the current is or I might just feel the cable after driving for a while and see if it shows any signs of getting hot. I don't envisage using much of the battery capacity as we had no problems with the,90 ah lead with no solar and suspect we only discharged about 1/4 of it at most.

 

[Millcourt]

Hope it all goes well for you, but there may be a couple of problems you should be aware of.

Firstly, voltage is not a good indication of state of charge with Lithium, as it is with lead acid. The voltage does not noticeably fall off until the state of charge is quite depleted.

Secondly, without some form of BMS you need to ensure you do not charge if the temperature falls to 0 deg C or lower.

I see from the Ecotree website that they sell lithium batteries with and without a built-in BMS/Bluetooth/Heater. If you have the version with these built-in, it will be easy to to monitor SOG with the free App downloaded to a smartphone.

The only real concern I would have with what you have done is that unlike your previous lead acid battery (which has obviously given you very good service) the lithium battery you now have is capable of “sucking in” much greater current levels. This MIGHT over heat the wiring without adequate fuse protection (which may blow) when charging from the alternator.

Good luck. It will be very interesting to hear how everything works out for you.

Hope you have a great trip to France.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Millcourt]

I must have had another “Senior Moment”!

On re-checking the Ecotree website, it seems all of their Lithium batteries have a BMS, but not all have Bluetooth (for monitoring) or a heater for cold weather charging.

May be worth checking which version you won.

 

[The Wino]

I must have had another “Senior Moment”!

On re-checking the Ecotree website, it seems all of their Lithium batteries have a BMS, but not all have Bluetooth (for monitoring) or a heater for cold weather charging.

May be worth checking which version you won.

It's got BMS but not a heater or Bluetooth.

 

[The Wino]

I must say I was impressed with the service and advice from ecotree. They said that ideally I ought to run new cables from the solar as it's not clear whether the pre wired solar goes through the charger. They did however say stories of problems with alternators and lithium provided there's a bms and no smart alternator are unlikely. It's quite interesting as the winners all are having different approaches to fitting the battery and the things fitted with it. It should be interesting for others as lithium becomes more popular how we get on.

 

[AXO66]

I’m hoping your “simple” set up is problem free. It would make lithium batteries more attractive as I could last 20 years on lead batteries by replacing them every 5 years for the same cost as a lithium one when you include the Gizmos recommended.
Looking forward to seeing how you get on. Enjoy the trip .

 

[The Wino]

I’m hoping your “simple” set up is problem free. It would make lithium batteries more attractive as I could last 20 years on lead batteries by replacing them every 5 years for the same cost as a lithium one when you include the Gizmos recommended.
Looking forward to seeing how you get on. Enjoy the trip .

If I hadn't got one at half price I would have just done a straight swap as if I got another 7 years or so out of a lead acid it would be way cheaper than lithium. As I got it at an attractive price why not and it's an extra few bottles of wine on the payload and hopefully will be fit and forget. I think it's going to be like halogen bulbs going led and TV,s flat screen in a few years we're going to all be on lithium unless something even better comes along.
I do wonder at threads where people say you must have whatever battery and solar and inverters etc etc surely only if your motorhoming style requires them.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

I must have had another “Senior Moment”!

On re-checking the Ecotree website, it seems all of their Lithium batteries have a BMS, but not all have Bluetooth (for monitoring) or a heater for cold weather charging.

May be worth checking which version you won.

Some do have Bluetooth. I arranged with Ecotree to switch from the 110ah battery to a 100 ah battery with heater and blue tooth as part of the half price winners deal. I am installing mine similarly this weekend,hopefully.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

It's got BMS but not a heater or Bluetooth.

Does your solar controller give you an indication of how many amps your 100 w panel is pushing into the lithium battery?

 

[The Wino]

Does your solar controller give you an indication of how many amps your 100 w panel is pushing into the lithium battery?

It's has I need to be logged in on the Bluetooth to check it. I think the daily history is in watt hrs

 

[Hoovie]

Think of it this way ....
Would you drive your car without a Fuel gauge? If you only ever drive 100 miles before always filling up, then maybe no need to have one. But it is considered sensible to have one - and if you WANT TO, you can drive further without worrying about running out when you have a gauge you can refer to and get the most out the tank when you want. That is what a proper State of Charge Monitor will give you ... A fuel gauge for the battery.


Having a voltmeter (or using the voltage reading on the MPPT Controller) on a lithium battery is equivalent of opening up the fuel filler and having a sniff.... "Yup, fuel in there". You have no idea how much fuel is in there or how far it will take you.

Do ''electrical kit fitters' have a strong financial impetus to recommend an expensive complete package? More likely they have a strong professional impetus to recommend a complete package that will let you actually use the setup to its full ability.

 

[The Wino]

Think of it this way ....
Would you drive your car without a Fuel gauge? If you only ever drive 100 miles before always filling up, then maybe no need to have one. But it is considered sensible to have one - and if you WANT TO, you can drive further without worrying about running out when you have a gauge you can refer to and get the most out the tank when you want. That is what a proper State of Charge Monitor will give you ... A fuel gauge for the battery.


Having a voltmeter (or using the voltage reading on the MPPT Controller) on a lithium battery is equivalent of opening up the fuel filler and having a sniff.... "Yup, fuel in there". You have no idea how much fuel is in there or how far it will take you.

Do ''electrical kit fitters' have a strong financial impetus to recommend an expensive complete package? More likely they have a strong professional impetus to recommend a complete package that will let you actually use the setup to its full ability.

I don't really agree with your analagy because my idea is when the solar switches to float I will have a pretty good idea that the battery is either fully charged or pretty close to and I know my battery usage is well inside its capacity. Going back to the fuel analagy it's like setting off every day knowing the tank is full (without having to stop and fill the tank ) and driving 200 miles. In that case would I pay a hundred quid to repair the fuel gauge probably not. If I later get more electrical kit and an inverter so I need to know how much battery I've got left before running out and can modify what kit I use it could well be a different matter.
I could be being cynical on the fitters as long as the first question they ask is what have you had before were there any problems with it and what do you want out of the new system fine. But I do see a lot of posts where people say they have a huge battery capacity loads of solar and boast that there fully recharged by 10 in the morning sounds to me like they've been oversold.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Hoovie]

And when you are NOT at fully charged, you will have NO IDEA on where the battery is in terms of charge level.
Taking the fuel gauge analogy, being on float is the same as the pump cutting off when the tank is full. When the tank is not full, you will not have a clue how much fuel is in it.

If it suits you to operate that way, fine, but as you have said, YOU and YOUR usage of battery power is so minimal you will never get to use battery anywhere close to its capacity so it doesn't matter to you (and it sounds like even a half-price lithium for your setup was not a good use of your money). Other people are in a different situation.

 

[John Barrett]

SNIP
I know there will be a lot on here soon predicting dire consequences of this basic approach but it will show if the plug in replacement claims are valid and do remember a lot of electrical kit fitters have a strong financial impetus to recommend a quite expensive complete package.
SNIP

Looks like you were dead right!
KISS...

 

[cyberyacht]

I've got lithiums which also feed an inverter for the kettle/toaster/microwave but no B2B. Being a Euro 5 engine without a fancy alternator setup, I've had no problems. Mostly I only rely on solar plus whatever the alternator pushes in when moving, with the mains charger switched off. I may fit a B2B at some stage but it's not absolutely essential.

 

[The Wino]

And when you are NOT at fully charged, you will have NO IDEA on where the battery is in terms of charge level.
Taking the fuel gauge analogy, being on float is the same as the pump cutting off when the tank is full. When the tank is not full, you will not have a clue how much fuel is in it.

If it suits you to operate that way, fine, but as you have said, YOU and YOUR usage of battery power is so minimal you will never get to use battery anywhere close to its capacity so it doesn't matter to you (and it sounds like even a half-price lithium for your setup was not a good use of your money). Other people are in a different situation.

I did wonder about whether it was worth stumping up for the lithium but intend to keep it if I swap the motorhome. It does seem that some are a bit evangelist about their own set up!. I'm not saying my ideas are right for everyone but it seems some find it very difficult to accept there could be more basic ways of doing things. Makes you wonder if they're the same about cars ours are Skoda and Seat chosen on the basis of good build hopefully for the cost I think I would be getting lectures about how a top of the range Mercedes makes more sense as it performs better ( probably to a level I would never use).

 

[John Barrett]

SNIP

Makes you wonder if they're the same about cars ours are Skoda and Seat chosen on the basis of good build hopefully for the cost I think I would be getting lectures about how a top of the range Mercedes makes more sense as it performs better ( probably to a level I would never use).

I've recently changed my top of the range Merc E350 Bluetec in favour of a Mazda CX5 AWD. The car was nearly five years old and the potential for high repair bills was worrying me...
The Mazda appears to be just as well put together and was a whole lot cheaper!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[The Wino]

I've recently changed my top of the range Merc E350 Bluetec in favour of a Mazda CX5 AWD. The car was nearly five years old and the potential for high repair bills was worrying me...
The Mazda appears to be just as well put together and was a whole lot cheaper!

We usually buy 6 months old and keep them about 7 years. Don't get me wrong if someone says I've got the cash and it's my thing that I want to spend it on even though it makes no financial sense and going to cost more per mile than 4 serfs carrying me in a sedan chair thats fine. But that doesn't mean it makes sense for everyone.

 

[Hoovie]

I've recently changed my top of the range Merc E350 Bluetec in favour of a Mazda CX5 AWD. The car was nearly five years old and the potential for high repair bills was worrying me...
The Mazda appears to be just as well put together and was a whole lot cheaper!

Cars, Leisure Batteries and just about everything else in life is the same ... there is no one-size-fits-all and what is right for one person may well be either not the best option or be even a bad option for another.

Talking cars, I changed my 3 1/2 year old DS5 for a 3 month old Vauxhall Corsa at a cost of £250 (part of the reason was potential repair costs). Had the Corsa for coming up for 5 years and it does everything I need it to.

I did wonder about whether it was worth stumping up for the lithium but intend to keep it if I swap the motorhome. It does seem that some are a bit evangelist about their own set up!. I'm not saying my ideas are right for everyone but it seems some find it very difficult to accept there could be more basic ways of doing things. Makes you wonder if they're the same about cars ours are Skoda and Seat chosen on the basis of good build hopefully for the cost I think I would be getting lectures about how a top of the range Mercedes makes more sense as it performs better ( probably to a level I would never use).

It is quite simple to be honest ... if you (anyone!) does not know the amount of battery life they have left, then they cannot either take full advantage of that battery, or treat it correctly to mazimize the service life of it.
With a lithium battery, it can go from a totally normal situation in terms of lights working, TV on, whatever, to the battery shutting down in a matter of minutes without any warning. It is not like a Lead Battery where you get a bit of a warning with the voltage dropping and lights dimming, water pump slowing down and those kind of clues.

If I was doing a electrical design for someone like yourself, I would say "stick with Lead, and use a Voltmeter". It really would be that simple from the way you have described your typical use. But where people have high usage and actually take advantage of the capacity of Lithium, then 100% I would tell them they MUST have some kind of State of Charge Monitor, be it a add-on one such as Victron BMV or NASA Marine BM1 for example, or get a Lithium Battery with a built-in SOC Monitor.
So ... as far as accepting there could be more basic ways of doing things, of course there are, but fitting a Lithium Battery without the means of monitoring it is just plain poor practice and I would not accept it as a good or even passable idea. (and this is one reason why companies that insist a Lithium Battery is a direct "drop in replacement" with nothing else needed are not ones to rely on for a good setup).

 

[WildBunch]

I have copied this from another lithium thread as it seems relevant to this thread.

"I finally got round to changing to lithium over the weekend.
I was instructed by SWMBO that I was not to do the job myself, as she could not stand the stress of me doing it & getting it wrong or struggling to do it. I would have had to do it parked up outside the house.
I had the job done by Oaktree Motorhomes , Rob & his crew were very professional & helpful. They answered my many technical questions. The job is great & seems to be working fine. I will have to learn what the system / App will do & how long I can stay off grid etc.
In the end I replaced the 2 X 95 Ah AGM batteries with one 110 Ah Eco Tree LifePo4 battery. I went down the Victron route & fitted a smart shunt, Orion 30 amp B2B & a new MPPT solar controller. There is still room for a second battery if needed in the future."

As a foot note to above.
Oaktree Motorhomes did not try to oversell the project & actually helped me to save a little money as I was over specifying the size of the Solar controller. I did a lot of research & changed my mind more than once before I finally decided how to proceed.
My only firm conclusion on lithium is that it is complicated in the details & there are many ways to do it that may suit your individual requirements. My overriding requirement was to save weight. Also for the small cost involved a Victron smart shunt is essential to let you monitor what you battery & chargers are doing.

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

I can’t claim to personally know about lithium setup, but thought it wise to start preparing for the transition a couple of years ago by installing solar and B2B components with lithium profiles per the then general advice. We’ve just recently replaced the original 2 x 92Ah AGM batteries with a Sterling 120Ah lithium battery and Victron Smartshunt (need accurate usage visibility in my opinion), the main driver for such in our case being weight saving & reduced need for EHU (no inverter, not big power users). Could be interesting to see how we get on when used in anger for the first time soon…

 

[Waveski]

Hoovie, a NASA BM-1 unfortunately does not work with lithium. It has no settings for lithium batteries and will not correctly calculate the state of charge.
I’m also considering the conversion to lithium and the possibility of a drop in unit. I’ve got a lithium setting on the solar unit and the existing mains charger will work in the short term. It’s the alternator charging which I can’t get my head around. I’m looking at a 200ah lithium replacement for my 2x100ah lead acid and I’m concerned the draw of the lithium would pull an overwhelming charge through the system. For a given system nobody seems to know what will be the maximum charge from the alternator. My system is fused at 50A through a bespoke split charge system, will I blow the fuse? If I understand correctly, this is why installers recommend the protection of a B2B.
As yet i have not seen any adverse reports from anyone who has just dropped in a lithium battery, so I’m following this thread with great interest.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Tombola]

I've got lithiums which also feed an inverter for the kettle/toaster/microwave but no B2B. Being a Euro 5 engine without a fancy alternator setup, I've had no problems. Mostly I only rely on solar plus whatever the alternator pushes in when moving, with the mains charger switched off. I may fit a B2B at some stage but it's not absolutely essential.

how much does your alternator push in when moving do you know cyberyacht

 

[cyberyacht]

Somewhere between 15-20Amps

 

[Waveski]

I’ve seen my alternator push out 27Amps very briefly with the lead acid batteries.

 

[The Wino]

Hoovie, a NASA BM-1 unfortunately does not work with lithium. It has no settings for lithium batteries and will not correctly calculate the state of charge.
I’m also considering the conversion to lithium and the possibility of a drop in unit. I’ve got a lithium setting on the solar unit and the existing mains charger will work in the short term. It’s the alternator charging which I can’t get my head around. I’m looking at a 200ah lithium replacement for my 2x100ah lead acid and I’m concerned the draw of the lithium would pull an overwhelming charge through the system. For a given system nobody seems to know what will be the maximum charge from the alternator. My system is fused at 50A through a bespoke split charge system, will I blow the fuse? If I understand correctly, this is why installers recommend the protection of a B2B.
As yet i have not seen any adverse reports from anyone who has just dropped in a lithium battery, so I’m following this thread with great interest.

Just read your reply and checked there is a bm1 lithium as you say a standard bm1 doesn't work with lithium. We're away most likely for the first trip of the year next weekend if we'll see how it goes.

 

[Hoovie]

Hoovie, a NASA BM-1 unfortunately does not work with lithium. It has no settings for lithium batteries and will not correctly calculate the state of charge.
I’m also considering the conversion to lithium and the possibility of a drop in unit. I’ve got a lithium setting on the solar unit and the existing mains charger will work in the short term. It’s the alternator charging which I can’t get my head around. I’m looking at a 200ah lithium replacement for my 2x100ah lead acid and I’m concerned the draw of the lithium would pull an overwhelming charge through the system. For a given system nobody seems to know what will be the maximum charge from the alternator. My system is fused at 50A through a bespoke split charge system, will I blow the fuse? If I understand correctly, this is why installers recommend the protection of a B2B.
As yet i have not seen any adverse reports from anyone who has just dropped in a lithium battery, so I’m following this thread with great interest.

I am not a great fan of the BM1 so not looked in detail. I would be surprised if it was not still fairly usable. I guess what it might be missing is the ability to change the charge efficiency and peukert exponent for fine tuning of the SoC.

There are some quite different opinions about using Relays vs B2Bs with Lithium, and there are people whose opinions I totally respect who are quite happy to use a relay and rely on the Alternator to essential do the current limiting. Personally speaking, I always go for a B2B as a controlled limiting device, especially when installing on an older vehicle where the Alternator may be getting a little tired and the extra extreme load of a Lithium Leisure Battery might tip it over the edge (personal preference).

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}