Lithium batteries ?

[LesW]

We easily managed 4 days without EHU over Christmas with our 100watt solar and 100ah lead acid battery, no television, but keep a laptop, phones and a few other appliances charged up.

It seems to be an Internet myth that solar panels don't work in winter.

 

[Richard n Ann]

We easily managed 4 days without EHU over Christmas with our 100watt solar and 100ah lead acid battery, no television, but keep a laptop, phones and a few other appliances charged up.

It seems to be an Internet myth that solar panels don't work in winter.

Absolutely, if we tilt ours it goes up to nearly full power in February. I did a test on our 40w panel and got over 2 amps in February

 

[olley]

I have just bought 3 180ah sealed batteries for the RV for £620, weight and storage isn't a problem on an RV, if I had gone Lithium I would need around 200ah at £2000? I have 360watts solar I also have a dirty great onboard genny so for me Lithium just doesn't make sense.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

My PVC had a manufacturer fitted 75Ah lead acid ( not sure it was even that). 100W solar. Couple of weekends ago wet and cloudy so stuck in the van and being miserly with lighting and stuff had less than11.5v so basically more than out of juice if I’d hoped to have that battery for any length of service. So don’t rely that solar will do it.

have just had lithium fitted. Possibly more than I really need but Gel wasn’t quite right. First I have limited space. The battery goes under a bench seat and I already have limited storage. 2 batteries not an option. Uprated the solar controller to MPPTso that knows about lithium. Also got a B2B for the lithium profile which meant added heavier wires from somewhere up front and bypassing the inbuilt Sargent does everything 240v 12v unit. Note the lithium battery has its own controller so it won’t take on more charge even if solar ehu or whatever is trying to give it power. So existing ehu charger retained which does a flat 13.8v charge. Depending on your chosen battery you may not need to change everything. I now have 120Ah lithium more than I’ll ever need (100ah had been desired but the 120 allows a higher discharge rate if I want a bigger inverter). All sorted by VanBitz

 

[Willeee]

Hello again autorouter,

Thanks so much everyone for help and advice ... we feel a bit boggled, as so new to it !!

Anyway, I've found the details of the B2B .... BB 1250 Battery-Battery Charger 12V 12V 45A plus
1 Voltage Sensitive Relay 12/24V 160A

Some folk seem to suggest we keep it simple, being so new to things, so perhaps that's the way to go for now ....

Thanks

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[autorouter]

The EBL 99 has a small switch to change the mains charger profile between lead-acid (Blei-Saure) and Gel (Blei-Gel) battery chemistries. I think it was originally fitted with gels. Is the switch correctly positioned for lead-acid batteries?

The reason I ask is that the gel setting has an extended absorption charging phase, that just might overcharge lead-acid batteries, and possibly be implicated in your battery gassing /overheating problem.

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

have just had lithium fitted. Possibly more than I really need but Gel wasn’t quite right. First I have limited space. The battery goes under a bench seat and I already have limited storage. 2 batteries not an option. Uprated the solar controller to MPPTso that knows about lithium. Also got a B2B for the lithium profile which meant added heavier wires from somewhere up front and bypassing the inbuilt Sargent does everything 240v 12v unit. Note the lithium battery has its own controller so it won’t take on more charge even if solar ehu or whatever is trying to give it power. So existing ehu charger retained which does a flat 13.8v charge. Depending on your chosen battery you may not need to change everything. I now have 120Ah lithium more than I’ll ever need (100ah had been desired but the 120 allows a higher discharge rate if I want a bigger inverter). All sorted by VanBitz

Your setup sounds similar to that I am thinking of doing before the Banner AGMs give up the ghost. We had solar with MPPT controller and a Sterling B2B fitted in preparation for lithium by VanBitz last year when the van was new to us.

Did you go with the Sterling lithium battery?

 

[autorouter]

Anyway, I've found the details of the B2B .... BB 1250 Battery-Battery Charger

There's two versions of this, the older red/black metal case and the newer white plastic case. The older one has profiles for standard, gel and AGM batteries. The newer one has many more profiles including lithium (LiFePO4), and also custom settings eg. for the battery manufacturer's recommended settings.

What are the details of the solar controller?

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Your setup sounds similar to that I am thinking of doing before the Banner AGMs give up the ghost. We had solar with MPPT controller and a Sterling B2B fitted in preparation for lithium by VanBitz last year when the van was new to us.

Did you go with the Sterling lithium battery?

Yep it’s a Sterling 120Ah thing

 

[CazPaul]

The only person likes LFP kept at 100% SOC is the ones that make them and the ones that sell. The informed experienced users Rarely go above 90-95% SOC. The only time you go to a 100% SOC is it’s first charge, to bring the cells at 3,6-3,65v to form the SEI layer. After that, the less you visit the 100% SOC, the better. This is not new, there are off griders with LFP for more that 8-10 years in service. Little degradation in capacity if kept out of extremities. Lots of info on this if you look in the right place.

So when parked up then not in use on the drive, the solar shouldn't/doesn't take them to 100% charge?

So if you come back from a trip with low batteries you shouldn't plug into EHU?

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[RowleyBirkinQC]

So when parked up then not in use on the drive, the solar shouldn't/doesn't take them to 100% charge?

So if you come back from a trip with low batteries you shouldn't plug into EHU?

If you have a B2B installed as recommended, assuming you’re not staying close to home, I guess you wouldn’t/shouldn’t arrive home with low batteries?

 

[Wissel]

So when parked up then not in use on the drive, the solar shouldn't/doesn't take them to 100% charge?

So if you come back from a trip with low batteries you shouldn't plug into EHU?

Good chargers should only deliver the correct voltage to charge safely. A good BMS will cut charging if needed. A whole good system will charge to set parameters, always keeping the battery in it's sweet spot and protected from high/low voltage/temps/loads/charging.

If this is the case, it doesn't matter if the system is plugged into EHU all the time or how much charge comes from solar or driving.

Sounds complicated, but once fitted (properly) it's fit and forget

 

[Raul]

So when parked up then not in use on the drive, the solar shouldn't/doesn't take them to 100% charge?


It takes them to the voltage settings the user have set them to. If you set them to reach 100%, then that’s what will do. If you set them to reach 95-97%, you prolong their life by a factor of four. Given the amount of energy penalty, it’s a no brainier.


So if you come back from a trip with low batteries you shouldn't plug into EHU?

Only if you need them charged ASAP, because u have critical loads on them,
; I don’t, I let the solar to charge them the next day in ample time.

 

[autorouter]

So when parked up then not in use on the drive, the solar shouldn't/doesn't take them to 100% charge?

So if you come back from a trip with low batteries you shouldn't plug into EHU?

Lead-acid battery types, including AGM and Gel, slowly degrade if left for long periods at less than full charge. Lead sulphate forms on both positive and negative plate during discharge, in what is called 'amorphous' form, ie non-crystalline. Charging to 100% changes the lead sulphate back into lead and lead oxide on the plates.

Long storage at less than 100% charge means the amorphous lead sulphate changes into crystal lead sulphate, which is difficult/impossible to change back into lead and lead oxide. So the battery loses capacity.

This is the reason why it's so important to fully charge lead-acid batteries, and keep them fully charged by 'float charging' when stored.

Lithium batteries are entirely different in this respect. They do not degrade when stored at less than full charge. Ideally they are stored at 50% charge. If they are fully charged and then float charged, they degrade, so float charging is definitely something to be avoided.

Lithium batteries cycled between 20% and 80% charge will last for decades.

Your EHU charger should have a lithium profile that switches off when fully charged, and switches back on when the voltage drops a bit due to discharge.

 

[CazPaul]

Lead-acid battery types, including AGM and Gel, slowly degrade if left for long periods at less than full charge. Lead sulphate forms on both positive and negative plate during discharge, in what is called 'amorphous' form, ie non-crystalline. Charging to 100% changes the lead sulphate back into lead and lead oxide on the plates.

Long storage at less than 100% charge means the amorphous lead sulphate changes into crystal lead sulphate, which is difficult/impossible to change back into lead and lead oxide. So the battery loses capacity.

This is the reason why it's so important to fully charge lead-acid batteries, and keep them fully charged by 'float charging' when stored.

Lithium batteries are entirely different in this respect. They do not degrade when stored at less than full charge. Ideally they are stored at 50% charge. If they are fully charged and then float charged, they degrade, so float charging is definitely something to be avoided.

Lithium batteries cycled between 20% and 80% charge will last for decades.

Your EHU charger should have a lithium profile that switches off when fully charged, and switches back on when the voltage drops a bit due to discharge.

Thanks, but should the EHU charger not just charge them to 80% or less though and then cut out? Or be designed to just give them an occasional full charge?

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[Raul]

Autorouter, you can have a bit of float charge if is a daily cycling system, and some loads feed from that. But you need to find your pack true free float voltage and go below that by 0,1v to set the float voltage. Free float voltage is the pack let at rest after charge for at least 24hrs. That would be a true free float voltage for that pack, each is slight different. Once it reaches that voltage, the pack will not take any current, the loads will eat it.

 

[autorouter]

Thanks, but should the EHU charger not just charge them to 80% or less though and then cut out? Or be designed to just give them an occasional full charge?

Yes, that's exactly what some do. It's all still quite new, and as this becomes widely known people will start asking for chargers that do just that. But most are still fixated on pushing in 100% charge all the time.

 

[Raul]

Thanks, but should the EHU charger not just charge them to 80% or less though and then cut out? Or be designed to just give them an occasional full charge?

It depends what charger is, and what charge rate is capable of; I set mine to charge no more than 90% SOC, there abouts. Given the opportunity to charge fast, gobble in as fast as you can, then move on next day. If you find yourself often on ehu, maybe lithium is not needed. But if you hook up once a week in dark winter, then ehu can give you in few hrs the hole energy you may need for the week.

 

[CazPaul]

It depends what charger is, and what charge rate is capable of; I set mine to charge no more than 90% SOC, there abouts. Given the opportunity to charge fast, gobble in as fast as you can, then move on next day. If you find yourself often on ehu, maybe lithium is not needed. But if you hook up once a week in dark winter, then ehu can give you in few hrs the hole energy you may need for the week.

Sound great for camping without EHU in winter then, when solar doesn't put much in.

 

[Willeee]

Hi again A,

I've found the invoice for the solar panels :

2 x 50W Flexible Solar Panel Narrow
MPPT Controller

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[Raul]

Yes it is great. When we move we have a Orion 30A and for 2hrs drive puts back from alternator almost a day worth what we need. Of course the solar helps to. We have been around Scotland last year in October/ November and only charged on hookup once at Scrabster and once at Glencoe village, in the hole tree weeks. We did use a mini grill, electric kettle and microwave. We saved the gas for heating. Some petrolstations in highlands don’t have gas. The fridge is compressor and now we have a freezer box to.

 

[CazPaul]

Yes it is great. When we move we have a Orion 30A and for 2hrs drive puts back from alternator almost a day worth what we need. Of course the solar helps to. We have been around Scotland last year in October/ November and only charged on hookup once at Scrabster and once at Glencoe village, in the hole tree weeks. We did use a mini grill, electric kettle and microwave. We saved the gas for heating. Some petrolstations in highlands don’t have gas. The fridge is compressor and now we have a freezer box to.

Yes if the lithium really take off and prices come down then I can see compressor fridges becoming much more popular and most manufactures fitting them.

 

[bigtwin]

Yes it is great. When we move we have a Orion 30A and for 2hrs drive puts back from alternator almost a day worth what we need. Of course the solar helps to. We have been around Scotland last year in October/ November and only charged on hookup once at Scrabster and once at Glencoe village, in the hole tree weeks. We did use a mini grill, electric kettle and microwave. We saved the gas for heating. Some petrolstations in highlands don’t have gas. The fridge is compressor and now we have a freezer box to.

Curious about where you got your hookup in Scrabster.

Ian

 

[autorouter]

I've found the invoice for the solar panels :

2 x 50W Flexible Solar Panel Narrow
MPPT Controller

What I'm concerned about is whether the battery problem is just a random battery failure, which is possible, or maybe one of the charging devices is overcharging and causing the battery problem. A charging device could be faulty, or set to the wrong charging profile.

MPPT Controllers come in many brands and models, some of which can be set to different charge profiles. It's even possible for someone to set up a controller for 24V batteries by doing the wrong startup sequence. That's why I'm asking for all the details.

 

[Al n Val]

Absolutely, however, if your budget allows for this you will always have a big smile on your face knowing that “ l have the power” l can stay where l want for as long as l want and have the power to do what l want
I have yet to meet anyone or read about anyone that has regretted getting Lithium.
Check out Sterling.

check out Gadget John lithium escapades, he’s gone back to AGM ‘s

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[Jim]

[/QUOTE]

check out Gadget John lithium escapades, he’s gone back to AGM ‘s

Seriously; don't bother

 

[Raul]

Curious about where you got your hookup in Scrabster.

Ian

Why are you so curious?
It was canisbay or May, I can’t remember exactly. It was a family site listed on UK campsites. The next day went to scrabster and that’s what I rembember.

 

[Raul]

check out Gadget John lithium escapades, he’s gone back to AGM ‘s

If you can’t ride a bike, don’t blame the bike because you can’t ride. And specially, don’t brag about it to others that bike is bad.
I gues youdon’t understand that John is very clueless when it comes to lithium.

 

[Littlewheels]

check out Gadget John lithium escapades, he’s gone back to AGM ‘s

I won’t be going back second MH with them delighted with the performance and assurance of having them additionally AGM’s wouldn’t fit my MH usage and at the end of the day they are old technology.

 

[Al n Val]

Seriously; don't bother
[/QUOTE]

I haven’t Jim

bothered that is

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