Lithium batteries protection in low temperatures

[Tombola]

Personally I'd stay with victron for the bluetooth reading aspect though .
So ip22 I'd gonfor the 30amp.
And b2b also 30amp
If the renogy battery has Bluetooth then maybe you could look at cheaper version of the charger and b2b if money is tight as the battery will show you what's going on.

Good luck.

 

[gerry mcg]

Does this victron unit have a temperature probe to regulate charging when the lithium battery is at or below 0 deg C ?, and if so does it actually prevent charging at this temperature.

You get a victron smartbatterysense
And connect and stick it on your lithium battery. It provides voltage and temperature information via BT and you connect it to your victron MPPT and IP22 charger by victrons VE.networking protocol.
You can then manually set temperature tlimits, below which the Victron MPPT and IP22 charger will be disabled to prevent low temperature charging

 

[gerry mcg]

I’m thinking an ip22 charger, but what ah rating. 20ah? Also, which b2b unit, temp controller etc plus anything else I should fit while I’m at it?

I have a 205Ah ks-energy battery and I went for a 15A IP22 charger with a victron smartbatterysense that also pairs with my 75/15 MPPT.
I added a votronic vcc1212-50 B2B with separate temp sensor bought from Roadpro, but not showing as available )
Happy with setup

 

[David Bradley]

We have 2 x Victron Lithium Batteries with the Victron external BMS. I've considered installing some 30W 12v heating pads to help during the colder months, but then realised Ive already got a heat source in that locker!
Current setup means that the VEBus.BMS will stop all charge when one of the batteries communicates its internal temp has gone below 5C.
I've added some insulation to the battery box, but on the colder evenings Ive started doing the following when on hookup.
Set the charge current to zero in the early evening to let the batteries drain to somewhere between 80-90%, we use a small 240v fan heater, so that helps with the battery drain
I then allow the system to charge the batteries, this causes the batteries to generate heat, but also causes the inverter/charger (a Victron Multiplus 12/3000/120) to kick out a load of heat. The battery internal temps can read around 26C during this process, they then stay warm all night - or at least dont get cold to the point where they are too cold to charge.

 

[Adriaadventure]

In our MH conversion we have installed lithium batteries , but the other day I went out to work on the conversion and when I went to turn on the heater it never worked because the lithium had went into temperature protection mode , it had been set to 2degrees , so I changed it to 1 degree and everything was good , however this morning I went out and same thing again , so when I looked at the battery temp software it said -3 degrees , so I wasn't prepared to take a chance and adjust the temp protection lower to enable the batteries to work again , so I left the heat off.

So what temperature protection setting do other lithium users have their batteries set to , I'm especially interested in someone who lives full time in the van or anyone who encounters low temperatures while in the MH.

Found this video on youtube. Its an interview with 'Battle Born' c.e.o discussing charging of Lifepo4 batteries at low temperatures.
From this video it appears that you actually can charge at below zero temperature at low currents without causing damage to the battery ?

( dont know if its allowed to post a link or if it breaks some rules but I found this video very interesting. Please remove the link if I've done wrong Jim )

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[Raul]

Found this video on youtube. Its an interview with 'Battle Born' c.e.o discussing charging of Lifepo4 batteries at low temperatures.
From this video it appears that you actually can charge at below zero temperature at low currents without causing damage to the battery ?

( dont know if its allowed to post a link or if it breaks some rules but I found this video very interesting. Please remove the link if I've done wrong Jim )

That’s only valid if bms settings allows it. If it’s set not to, then charge is disabled for low temperature.

 

[ManTheVan]

I would have thought that a LiFePO4's BMS would disable charging below the critical temperature? I have the Victron kit but have not installed the temperature sensor because of this. AFAIK, there has been no issue over the winters that we've had the LiFePO4, so hope I've been correct!

 

[Hoovie]

You can charge at low temps as long as the charge rate is signficantly reduced. The typical BMS would not have enough charging management to perform any limiting so would typically be an "all or nothing" setup.
Lithiums with Heaters and an appropriate BMS that is designed to work with heaters will either send the charge to the battery or divert to the heater as appropriate, depending on the temperature AND level of charge.

 

[Raul]

Agree, the bms can’t limit/ reduce the rate. Only on off. You can charge on those bmses without low temp protection. They will allow it. But you need to control the charge externally. I would not do that unattended, and certainly not below -2C. In fact it’s not worth it, for the capacity loss risk, and lithium plating.

 

[Pausim]

I am pleased to say my Relion LiFePO4 does not shut down when cold. If it did my EFOY would lose it’s cold self protection and that would be far more costly to replace than the battery. It seems a ridiculous thing to do on an Li battery, they are often used for devices that need to stay live at all times.
Relion say cold charging is allowed as follows:
1. 0°C to -10°C (32°F to 14°F) charge at 0.1C (10% of the battery capacity)
2. -10°C to -20°C (14°F to -4°F) charge at 0.05C (5% of the battery capacity)
On this basis I don’t worry if the EFOY does a bit of cold charging because 5A is its normal output and we just don’t get below -20°C often enough for it to be problem.

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[David Bradley]

I would have thought that a LiFePO4's BMS would disable charging below the critical temperature? I have the Victron kit but have not installed the temperature sensor because of this. AFAIK, there has been no issue over the winters that we've had the LiFePO4, so hope I've been correct!

If you have Victron batteries, they communicate their internal temp to the external VEBus BMS via the black battery comms cables. The ones that you connect into the BMS..
there is no need to install a separate temp sensor.

 

[Minxy]

I've just read this thread and understand most of it and I have to say it's put me off going lithium! There are enough things to think about with a MH without having to mollycoddle batteries too.

Is it really as big an issue as it seems?

 

[Otter Spotter]

I've just read this thread and understand most of it and I have to say it's put me off going lithium! There are enough things to think about with a MH without having to mollycoddle batteries too.

Is it really as big an issue as it seems?

No, don’t worry, in simple terms if it’s too cold for your Lithium to charge then you are probably tucked up in bed at home. The BMS should protect the battery from being charged when it’s too cold, if you drive off and get the van warmed up then charging from B2B will start.

 

[Minxy]

No, don’t worry, in simple terms if it’s too cold for your Lithium to charge then you are probably tucked up in bed at home. The BMS should protect the battery from being charged when it’s too cold, if you drive off and get the van warmed up then charging from B2B will start.

Even though we are in Spain it has been very cold some days, we intend to do cooler countries too so not being able to charge from solar would be a concern as we don't use sites or have hook up.

 

[Pausim]

I've just read this thread and understand most of it and I have to say it's put me off going lithium! There are enough things to think about with a MH without having to mollycoddle batteries too.

Is it really as big an issue as it seems?

No. Lead acid batteries (particularly AGM) need just as much mollycoddling as Lithium. Lithium have no problem with being undercharged or charging at lower voltages, unlike lead acid batteries which can sulphate. Lithium cold weather performance is far better than lead acid, at freezing point they retain 95% to 98% of their capacity whereas lead acid drops to 70% to 80% capacity. The only things to avoid are over voltage charging or charging below freezing point and they have a BMS to prevent serious problems.

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[Hoovie]

Even though we are in Spain it has been very cold some days, we intend to do cooler countries too so not being able to charge from solar would be a concern as we don't use sites or have hook up.

The solution to not have all the kind of worries discussed on this thread is actually pretty simple. Get decent batteries from a source you trust and choose ones with a built-in heater so the battery takes care of what happens at low temps.

I run a pair of 100Ah Lithiums with internal heaters and they run and charge down to -20C.
Well, they don't really charge at temps that low, but the point is YOU don't have to faff around doing this and that - the battery takes care of it and at temps below around zero, the charge power going into the battery automatically goes to the heater to warm it up so it WILL start charging. A MUCH better solution than simply cutting the charge power and wasting that energy, or messing around with getting heaters against the battery side and adding your own circuitry.
Yes, a DIY solution is perfectly possible but the question is "do you want a battery or do you want a new hobby?"

 

[Otter Spotter]

Even though we are in Spain it has been very cold some days, we intend to do cooler countries too so not being able to charge from solar would be a concern as we don't use sites or have hook up.

But are you parked up for days on end or do you travel in the van. If you do move every 3 or 4 days it will charge up assuming you have a B2B.

 

[Pausim]

Even though we are in Spain it has been very cold some days, we intend to do cooler countries too so not being able to charge from solar would be a concern as we don't use sites or have hook up.

If it is cold enough to worry about charging then you would also need to drain down the water system. I assume most people when using their motorhomes keep them warm enough to avoid freezing the water system so the battery should also be warm enough to charge normally.

 

[Lenny HB]

Yes, a DIY solution is perfectly possible but the question is "do you want a battery or do you want a new hobby?"

I'll go with the Hobby.

 

[bigtwin]

I am pleased to say my Relion LiFePO4 does not shut down when cold. If it did my EFOY would lose it’s cold self protection and that would be far more costly to replace than the battery. It seems a ridiculous thing to do on an Li battery, they are often used for devices that need to stay live at all times.
Relion say cold charging is allowed as follows:
1. 0°C to -10°C (32°F to 14°F) charge at 0.1C (10% of the battery capacity)
2. -10°C to -20°C (14°F to -4°F) charge at 0.05C (5% of the battery capacity)
On this basis I don’t worry if the EFOY does a bit of cold charging because 5A is its normal output and we just don’t get below -20°C often enough for it to be problem.

I’m not sure that any of them ’shut down when cold’, inhibit charging yes but that doesn’t prevent the battery feeding any loads. They are quite happy to supply loads down to -20 (or lower?) when charging may already have been inhibited at a much higher temperature.

There are enough things to think about with a MH without having to mollycoddle batteries too.

Ahh, therein lies a familiarity mindset! Lithiums are much easier to look after than LA. Many forget how fussy LA batteries are; they don’t like not being charged, they don like being left in partial states of charge, they loose capacity at low temperatures, etc. There is a reason why LAs batteries tend to have a short life; it’s because many owners are unable/unwilling to pander to their demanding needs!

Is it really as big an issue as it seems?

No!

not being able to charge from solar would be a concern as we don't use sites or have hook up.

That’s why most lithiums have built in heaters such that, at low temperatures, the charge source is used to supply the heaters until internal temperatures are at an acceptable level for charging purposes. And all this happens without any requirement for the user to be involved.

Lead acid batteries (particularly AGM) need just as much mollycoddling as Lithium.

Not half!

Ian

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[Pausim]

I’m not sure that any of them ’shut down when cold’, inhibit charging yes but that doesn’t prevent the battery feeding any loads. They are quite happy to supply loads down to -20 (or lower?) when charging may already have been inhibited at a much higher temperature.

I agree with all your points though I am not so sure that all BMSs perform the way they should for motorhome use. There are some postings about one particular make having a sleep mode and shutting down completely in the night when no amps are flowing.

 

[Raul]

I agree with all your points though I am not so sure that all BMSs perform the way they should for motorhome use. There are some postings about one particular make having a sleep mode and shutting down completely in the night when no amps are flowing.

No bms is perfect, the more tasks it does, it increases the chance for a glitch. Generally they are pretty safe, and protect the battery very well.

 

[Hoovie]

Having a Lithium battery does come with some potential issues and needs
Having a Lead battery does come with different some potential issues and needs.

One good way to get round quite a few of both Lead AND Lithium problems is to run Lead and Lithium in parallel I've been doing this for the last 18 months and worked very well.

 

[Pausim]

Having a Lithium battery does come with some potential issues and needs
Having a Lead battery does come with different some potential issues and needs.

One good way to get round quite a few of both Lead AND Lithium problems is to run Lead and Lithium in parallel I've been doing this for the last 18 months and worked very well.

Too complicated for me but I know you have a sophisticated way of combining the two technologies.

 

[Minxy]

If it is cold enough to worry about charging then you would also need to drain down the water system. I assume most people when using their motorhomes keep them warm enough to avoid freezing the water system so the battery should also be warm enough to charge normally.

We have a double floor so fresh water tank and all piping is in that which the heating pipes run through. Our 2 gel batteries are also in there so kept warm when we have the heating on however we never run it overnight but we're never had to mollycoddle our gels as people seem to 'need' to when they have lithium.

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[funflair]

We have a double floor so fresh water tank and all piping is in that which the heating pipes run through. Our 2 gel batteries are also in there so kept warm when we have the heating on however we never run it overnight but we're never had to mollycoddle our gels as people seem to 'need' to when they have lithium.

They aren't going to get that cold overnight just because you have not got the heating on, we don't run heating overnight and the batteries this morning are still at 15 deg while outside is 5 deg, let's face it zero on the batteries will be sub zero air temperature inside the van (how tough are you?) a few days at sub zero and no heating and our batteries drop close to zero, but can be charged from zero so I don't worry about them.

 

[Pausim]

We have a double floor so fresh water tank and all piping is in that which the heating pipes run through. Our 2 gel batteries are also in there so kept warm when we have the heating on however we never run it overnight but we're never had to mollycoddle our gels as people seem to 'need' to when they have lithium.

If the double floor space dropped below freezing it would freeze the water pipes as well as the Li battery. I don’t mollycoddle my Li battery, it is now 5 years old and performing the same as it ever did.

 

[MichaelT]

I've just read this thread and understand most of it and I have to say it's put me off going lithium! There are enough things to think about with a MH without having to mollycoddle batteries too.

Is it really as big an issue as it seems?

We haveva KS energy 200a underseat battery, no b2b or anything else just a drop in. Since 11th December when last away battery has gone from about 55% to 100% with the solar panel and its been very cold in that time so no its not a faff or big issue. The BMS seems to allow the smal charge from solar (150w) to trickle in and if we were using van we would have heat on anyway so I think it one of those things that can literally be overthought

 

[Hilma]

In our MH conversion we have installed lithium batteries , but the other day I went out to work on the conversion and when I went to turn on the heater it never worked because the lithium had went into temperature protection mode , it had been set to 2degrees , so I changed it to 1 degree and everything was good , however this morning I went out and same thing again , so when I looked at the battery temp software it said -3 degrees , so I wasn't prepared to take a chance and adjust the temp protection lower to enable the batteries to work again , so I left the heat off.

So what temperature protection setting do other lithium users have their batteries set to , I'm especially interested in someone who lives full time in the van or anyone who encounters low temperatures while in the MH.

Hi Bart,
Many Lithium batteries will not accept a charge below 5 deg C - it will discharge to a lower temp but if nothing going in then this could be the issue.
From battery university website: Below 5°C, the charge current should be reduced, and no charging is permitted at freezing temperatures because of the reduced diffusion rates on the anode

 

[bigtwin]

Many Lithium batteries will not accept a charge below 5 deg C - it will discharge to a lower temp but if nothing going in then this could be the issue.

A discharging battery will generate heat so it’s unlikely that the charge source will be disconnected for very long.

Ian

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