Lithium batteries cannot just drop in and replace lead batteries can they?

[Paullo]

The Answer is: YES!!! no additional components are required
That's not me saying that. That's from the KS Energy website: https://www.ksenergy.co.uk/lithium-leisure-battery-drop-in-replacement

In which they go into a lot of detail as to why this is the case. Now I'm no battery expert, but I would love this to be true. I have a single 80ah Gel battery which is completely dead and I've been looking into getting a replacement and wouldn't mind paying the extra for Lithium. I have a Victron solar charger which can handle Lithium and a Schaudt Booster 121525 B2B which I think also can. However the mains charger (Schaudt Elektroblock EBL 241-2) only supports lead acid or lead gel and I would like to not have to replace this if possible.

So, I'd be grateful for any views on the feasibility of just replacing my dead gel with a lithium battery without changing anything else and whether anyone has had experience of doing this. Many thanks in advance.

 

[MichaelT]

We just dropped a 200a underseat one in. Set solar to lithium and EBL to Gel. Been in 18m or so and no issues. Solar does heavy lifting with charging most of the time. Currently on a C&CC meet and cooking Spanish chicken in the slow cooker with the inverter after having morning coffee out of the Nespresso, battery currently at 91%.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

The Answer is: YES!!! no additional components are required
That's not me saying that. That's from the KS Energy website: https://www.ksenergy.co.uk/lithium-leisure-battery-drop-in-replacement

In which they go into a lot of detail as to why this is the case. Now I'm no battery expert, but I would love this to be true. I have a single 80ah Gel battery which is completely dead and I've been looking into getting a replacement and wouldn't mind paying the extra for Lithium. I have a Victron solar charger which can handle Lithium and a Schaudt Booster 121525 B2B which I think also can. However the mains charger (Schaudt Elektroblock EBL 241-2) only supports lead acid or lead gel and I would like to not have to replace this if possible.

So, I'd be grateful for any views on the feasibility of just replacing my dead gel with a lithium battery without changing anything else and whether anyone has had experience of doing this. Many thanks in advance.

You don't have to change the mains charger, it will still charge the lithium but not as well. You still have your b2b and solar mppt to charge your lithium. You will only use your charger whilst on hook up and you don't really need to charge up fully then .

 

[nickq]

Interesting find on their website. So if i interpret that correctly they are saying you don’t need a b2b in place of the split charge relay. Only if you want to charge even faster and your alternator is up to the task.

 

[pj650]

We replaced 2x 90 amp lead acid with a KS Ennergy 200 amp underseat lithium battery.
It is a drop in replacement.
Our van uses an Elektrobloc 99 set to gel. We use a
Victron solar controller and fitted a Vanbitz
Battery master as well.
We did this about nine months ago it works really well.
10% funster discount at KS.

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[tonka]

I contacted schaudt recently as I have the EBL 220. Here is their reply.

"You can usually charge lithium batteries with the setting lead-gel as long as the battery has a BMS. To be sure you can contact the battery manufacturer with the EBL’s charging characteristics (IUoU-charging characteristics with a charging current of 18A and an end-of-charge voltage of 14,3V) and get clearance from them."

 

[DavidCh]

Be careful. Assuming a BMS in the battery that will look after itself and stop anything damaging it. As stated above the mains charger will work but it is not the correct profile if it is set to lead however the BMS will protect the battery. The big issue is split charging and the vehicle alternator. It will 'try' to provide the voltage and current for the battery but you will be delivering far more current than it is designed for. To frighten yourself watch this .

I read through their website statements and I disagree. A lithium battery has a lower internal resistance than a lead acid apart from possibly when the lead acid is fully discharged and therefore will try to draw more current than the standard vehicle system is designed for, for a much longer period. You will be aware I am sure you see a high charge when first connected that quickly falls back with a lead acid, the lithium will just take it. You need something to control the power drawn from the alternator and big enough cables to handle it.

As I say, be careful. Fitting a B2B is a sensible protection and the comment 'will charge no quicker or better with a battery to battery charger' is nonsense. With a decent B2B you can chose the charge rate to protect your alternator. Without it, there is no control of the output.

 

[Portland]

I don't know if this has been said but Appuljack may be able to uprate the Schaudt ELB, give them a call

 

[Paullo]

Be careful. Assuming a BMS in the battery that will look after itself and stop anything damaging it. As stated above the mains charger will work but it is not the correct profile if it is set to lead however the BMS will protect the battery. The big issue is split charging and the vehicle alternator. It will 'try' to provide the voltage and current for the battery but you will be delivering far more current than it is designed for. To frighten yourself watch this .

I read through their website statements and I disagree. A lithium battery has a lower internal resistance than a lead acid apart from possibly when the lead acid is fully discharged and therefore will try to draw more current than the standard vehicle system is designed for, for a much longer period. You will be aware I am sure you see a high charge when first connected that quickly falls back with a lead acid, the lithium will just take it. You need something to control the power drawn from the alternator and big enough cables to handle it.

As I say, be careful. Fitting a B2B is a sensible protection and the comment 'will charge no quicker or better with a battery to battery charger' is nonsense. With a decent B2B you can chose the charge rate to protect your alternator. Without it, there is no control of the output.

Thanks for your detailed response. I do have a factory fitted B2B which has a lithium setting so hopefully that should be okay

 

[DavidCh]

Thanks for your detailed response. I do have a factory fitted B2B which has a lithium setting so hopefully that should be okay

Should be fine, since it is factory fitted they will have matched the charge rate to the alternator

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[MichaelT]

Be careful. Assuming a BMS in the battery that will look after itself and stop anything damaging it. As stated above the mains charger will work but it is not the correct profile if it is set to lead however the BMS will protect the battery. The big issue is split charging and the vehicle alternator. It will 'try' to provide the voltage and current for the battery but you will be delivering far more current than it is designed for. To frighten yourself watch this .

I read through their website statements and I disagree. A lithium battery has a lower internal resistance than a lead acid apart from possibly when the lead acid is fully discharged and therefore will try to draw more current than the standard vehicle system is designed for, for a much longer period. You will be aware I am sure you see a high charge when first connected that quickly falls back with a lead acid, the lithium will just take it. You need something to control the power drawn from the alternator and big enough cables to handle it.

As I say, be careful. Fitting a B2B is a sensible protection and the comment 'will charge no quicker or better with a battery to battery charger' is nonsense. With a decent B2B you can chose the charge rate to protect your alternator. Without it, there is no control of the output.

Thats just scaremongering, no BMS if I remember. Weve had no issues and as I said the solar does most charging.

 

[Brianmor]

I've got my Fogstar Drift coming next week as a drop in. It will be charged via my Victron most of the time and occasionally by the in-built Sargeant 328 . Fogstar says that the charging rate for their Drift batteries is 14.4v. I asked the forum for comments on any problems I might encounter whilst driving but I didn't get any replies, it's a 2014 Peugeot Boxer.

 

[WillysMB]

Bought a Fogstar Battery and they are saying pretty much the same thing "drop in replacement for lead/gel" but in the finer print they are saying that with proper lithium solar, b2b and lithium mains charger
things will work more efficiently ...

 

[tonyidle]

Bought a Fogstar Battery and they are saying pretty much the same thing "drop in replacement for lead/gel" but in the finer print they are saying that with proper lithium solar, b2b and lithium mains charger
things will work more efficiently ...

That's true. However with B2B for the alternator it is totally safe for the van electrics and the lithium battery. Any extras maximise the lithium Ah available but even without them lithium is a massive improvement.

 

[Guigsy]

I have swapped my mains charger. It was easy to disable the inbuilt charger in the EBL by just removing a fuse. Replaced with a Victron IP22.

Solar is also Victron and just needed a setting change.

So far I've left the DC charging alone. It seems to be pushing 15-20 amps in while I'm driving. Which isn't a lot, but it's not going to be an issue in the summer. I haven't checked what the situation is when the 3-way fridge is running on 12v though. I did buy a Votronic 30A B2B because (provided your wiring is good for 30A) it can be installed between the cab battery and the EBL, which simplifies install. No need to disable split chargers, etc.

My only other issue is my weird EBL 630 has a shunt built into the hab battery terminal. As I'm not relying on the EBL to tell me battery charge anymore, I've deleted it. But the control panel continuously blinks to tell me there's an error, which is annoying.

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[AshVanBitz]

There is no such thing as a drop in replacement. (Or if it does state such a thing there will be a clause somewhere stating the correct equipment must already be installed!)
For example, a new vehicle (a hymer for example), typically has compatible equipment installed as standard. However a brand new Autotrail is not “lithium ready” as there is not a dc-dc charger installed even though there should be!! (so if you have one of these you should really check if the leisure batteries actually receive a charge when the engine is running as the smart alternator will shut down when the engine battery is fully charged. All the tests we have carried out show that is doesn’t, so when you are driving to your destination the fridge is taking roughly between 10-15a (depending on the size of your fridge) with no way of replenishing that used power). Also the Sargent charging system is not suitable for lithium so both of these need to be replaced. Do you have a solar panel and again, is the regulator lithium compatible?
Then you need to look at the features within the battery you are choosing. Does it have Bluetooth connectivity. If it does then you will be able to see the battery level(s) - brilliant. If it doesn’t you will need to purchase a dedicated battery monitor as the majority of vehicles on the market only read the batteries voltage. Lithiums as you may already know sit naturally higher than the standard lead acid, gel and agm alternatives. Regardless of whether you have 1% or 100% capacity left, the standard monitors will show the battery as fully charged.
“So the above cover new vehicles post 2021!!”
Now we look at the vehicle prior to this and dc-dc chargers were not required as standard so they weren’t installed. The alternators can run up to 14.8v which is too high for a lithium battery as the maximum voltage they can receive is between 14.4-14.6v. If the lithium battery receives the incorrect voltage it can either damage the battery or simply keep switching it off to protect it.
The mains charger may be compatible but it is always recommended to check that is has the correct parameters.
And then we look at older vehicles (20 years old for example). Still worth a pretty penny and someone’s pride and joy. If that customer wants to change to lithium every little bit of the charging system will need to be upgraded as lithium was a twinkle in someone’s eye at that point in time so nothing will be suitable!
So again, no such thing as a drop in replacement as every vehicle is different depending on the converter, the factory fitted equipment/specifications and the age.
Hope this helps.
Ash

 

[MichaelT]

There is no such thing as a drop in replacement. (Or if it does state such a thing there will be a clause somewhere stating the correct equipment must already be installed!)
For example, a new vehicle (a hymer for example), typically has compatible equipment installed as standard. However a brand new Autotrail is not “lithium ready” as there is not a dc-dc charger installed even though there should be!! (so if you have one of these you should really check if the leisure batteries actually receive a charge when the engine is running as the smart alternator will shut down when the engine battery is fully charged. All the tests we have carried out show that is doesn’t, so when you are driving to your destination the fridge is taking roughly between 10-15a (depending on the size of your fridge) with no way of replenishing that used power). Also the Sargent charging system is not suitable for lithium so both of these need to be replaced. Do you have a solar panel and again, is the regulator lithium compatible?
Then you need to look at the features within the battery you are choosing. Does it have Bluetooth connectivity. If it does then you will be able to see the battery level(s) - brilliant. If it doesn’t you will need to purchase a dedicated battery monitor as the majority of vehicles on the market only read the batteries voltage. Lithiums as you may already know sit naturally higher than the standard lead acid, gel and agm alternatives. Regardless of whether you have 1% or 100% capacity left, the standard monitors will show the battery as fully charged.
“So the above cover new vehicles post 2021!!”
Now we look at the vehicle prior to this and dc-dc chargers were not required as standard so they weren’t installed. The alternators can run up to 14.8v which is too high for a lithium battery as the maximum voltage they can receive is between 14.4-14.6v. If the lithium battery receives the incorrect voltage it can either damage the battery or simply keep switching it off to protect it.
The mains charger may be compatible but it is always recommended to check that is has the correct parameters.
And then we look at older vehicles (20 years old for example). Still worth a pretty penny and someone’s pride and joy. If that customer wants to change to lithium every little bit of the charging system will need to be upgraded as lithium was a twinkle in someone’s eye at that point in time so nothing will be suitable!
So again, no such thing as a drop in replacement as every vehicle is different depending on the converter, the factory fitted equipment/specifications and the age.
Hope this helps.
Ash

No because I and others on here have dropped one in without issues but yes we do have solar contrllers with lithium setting and I do not have a smart alternator. Looking at the BMS/App I get about 18 to 20 amps when driving but as stated above the solar does most charging and I'm not often on hook up except when getting ready for a trip or occasionally on site.

 

[AshVanBitz]

No because I and others on here have dropped one in without issues but yes we do have solar contrllers with lithium setting and I do not have a smart alternator. Looking at the BMS/App I get about 18 to 20 amps when driving but as stated above the solar does most charging and I'm not often on hook up except when getting ready for a trip or occasionally on site.

I am pleased that you have not experienced any issues with you current setup and I hope this remains. I would hazard a guess and say that your motorhome was built prior to 2021 as you are using the standard split charging system. If it was a smart alternator that this would not be happening. Just be mindful that your alternator can produce 14.8v and this could damage the battery and cause it to completely fail or increase the degradation rate.
Being in business I have to provide the best advice that I can. I provide honest facts and that is all I can do. It is not a sales ploy, a way to try and strum up business, I am only helping where possible.

 

[irnbru]

Good explanation AshVanBitz , its good when dealers take the bother to reply and explain.

 

[haganap]

I am pleased that you have not experienced any issues with you current setup and I hope this remains. I would hazard a guess and say that your motorhome was built prior to 2021 as you are using the standard split charging system. If it was a smart alternator that this would not be happening. Just be mindful that your alternator can produce 14.8v and this could damage the battery and cause it to completely fail or increase the degradation rate.
Being in business I have to provide the best advice that I can. I provide honest facts and that is all I can do. It is not a sales ploy, a way to try and strum up business, I am only helping where possible.

You so sound like your dad.
I trust him too.

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[Raul]

I may add couple of thinks. There is mentioned many times as battery voltage as 14.4-14.6v. However, this is only true IF all cells in the battery a perfectly balanced and will equate to 3.6-3.65v. In real life cells are going to go out of balance and drift. Bms can balance a very small quantity, therefore cells will drift with use. So, a battery will shut down when one cell exceeds 3.65v, that can be 14.4 even 14v at pack level. This can happen at the end of charge when alternator it’s freed from other loads, and all power goes to battery. Also, with smart alternator is even worse, including regenerative breaking, when voltage can spike very high.
Horses for courses, but I agree, a lifepo4 it’s not a drop in replacement for any lead chargers. In the small print, you will find that you have to provide suitable charging.

 

[nickq]

I guess a 15 amp B2B and disable the split charge relay may be prudent in my case. That way I can top up while driving but should have no issue with cable size.

 

[AshVanBitz]

I guess a 15 amp B2B and disable the split charge relay may be prudent in my case. That way I can top up while driving but should have no issue with cable size.

I would recommend going for a larger B2B and upgrading the cable as your fridge would take the majority of your 15A. (Unless you are planning on driving with you fridge turned off)

 

[MichaelT]

I am pleased that you have not experienced any issues with you current setup and I hope this remains. I would hazard a guess and say that your motorhome was built prior to 2021 as you are using the standard split charging system. If it was a smart alternator that this would not be happening. Just be mindful that your alternator can produce 14.8v and this could damage the battery and cause it to completely fail or increase the degradation rate.
Being in business I have to provide the best advice that I can. I provide honest facts and that is all I can do. It is not a sales ploy, a way to try and strum up business, I am only helping where possible.

If you read my response you would have worked out i don't have a smart alternator and my App says my battery is perfect condition. I'm not saying a B2B is not a good thing but I thought I would see if saving £600 and everything works would be a good idea, obviously you're in the business of selling B2B and I have used your services in the past. I'm confident the BMS protects the battery and as I've said its only getting topped up the solar does most work when the sun is out but 2 weeks in December in Germany I had no issues.

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

There is no such thing as a drop in replacement. (Or if it does state such a thing there will be a clause somewhere stating the correct equipment must already be installed!)
For example, a new vehicle (a hymer for example), typically has compatible equipment installed as standard. However a brand new Autotrail is not “lithium ready” as there is not a dc-dc charger installed even though there should be!! (so if you have one of these you should really check if the leisure batteries actually receive a charge when the engine is running as the smart alternator will shut down when the engine battery is fully charged. All the tests we have carried out show that is doesn’t, so when you are driving to your destination the fridge is taking roughly between 10-15a (depending on the size of your fridge) with no way of replenishing that used power). Also the Sargent charging system is not suitable for lithium so both of these need to be replaced. Do you have a solar panel and again, is the regulator lithium compatible?
Then you need to look at the features within the battery you are choosing. Does it have Bluetooth connectivity. If it does then you will be able to see the battery level(s) - brilliant. If it doesn’t you will need to purchase a dedicated battery monitor as the majority of vehicles on the market only read the batteries voltage. Lithiums as you may already know sit naturally higher than the standard lead acid, gel and agm alternatives. Regardless of whether you have 1% or 100% capacity left, the standard monitors will show the battery as fully charged.
“So the above cover new vehicles post 2021!!”
Now we look at the vehicle prior to this and dc-dc chargers were not required as standard so they weren’t installed. The alternators can run up to 14.8v which is too high for a lithium battery as the maximum voltage they can receive is between 14.4-14.6v. If the lithium battery receives the incorrect voltage it can either damage the battery or simply keep switching it off to protect it.
The mains charger may be compatible but it is always recommended to check that is has the correct parameters.
And then we look at older vehicles (20 years old for example). Still worth a pretty penny and someone’s pride and joy. If that customer wants to change to lithium every little bit of the charging system will need to be upgraded as lithium was a twinkle in someone’s eye at that point in time so nothing will be suitable!
So again, no such thing as a drop in replacement as every vehicle is different depending on the converter, the factory fitted equipment/specifications and the age.
Hope this helps.
Ash

Clear, concise and bang on the money!
As I have a 20 plus years young van, which will require a whole reconfiguration of my electrics in order to fit just lithium, let alone solar and all the associated gubbins with that, I am glad I have been looking at portable power stations (see my earlier thread I started if anyine is interested).
And then there will be the small matter of cost!
Long term plans; change to a much newer van with spec available from the off for Lithium.
Short term plan on an old van; Portable power station.

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[Jim]

Hot Swap Lead Acid For Lithium

EDDIE ‘VANBITZ’ JONES DISCUSSES LITHIUM LOTS OF OPINIONS ON THIS ONE SO WE THOUGHT WE’D ASK EDDIE JONES OF VANBITZ, FIRST, WHAT HE MADE OF THE RUSH TO INSTALL LIFEP04 […]

www.mfun.uk

 

[nickq]

I would recommend going for a larger B2B and upgrading the cable as your fridge would take the majority of your 15A. (Unless you are planning on driving with you fridge turned off)

You lost me. What’s the b2b got to do with the fridge? As I understand it the fridge is powered by the alternator via the ds300 12v distribution panel. Actually the cables going into that look pretty large. The fridge is not powered by the leisure battery at all. Are you referring to van conversions with compressor fridges perhaps?
The thing with mine is the cable to the leisure battery isn’t that large. Looks like 8.5mm sq only.
I need to dig out the circuit diagrams…

 

[AshVanBitz]

You lost me. What’s the b2b got to do with the fridge? As I understand it the fridge is powered by the alternator via the ds300 12v distribution panel. Actually the cables going into that look pretty large. The fridge is not powered by the leisure battery at all. Are you referring to van conversions with compressor fridges perhaps?
The thing with mine is the cable to the leisure battery isn’t that large. Looks like 8.5mm sq only.
I need to dig out the circuit diagrams…

When the B2B is installed the standard split charge is disconnected. In turn a large amount of vehicles lose their D+ and along with it the ability to switch the fridge over to battery when the engine is started. Whilst carrying out the installation of the B2B the original cabling needs to be modified so the D+ can be powered off the leisure battery(s). This doesn’t apply to every motorhome but it is becoming increasingly more common.

 

[jumar]

There is no such thing as a drop in replacement. (Or if it does state such a thing there will be a clause somewhere stating the correct equipment must already be installed!)
For example, a new vehicle (a hymer for example), typically has compatible equipment installed as standard. However a brand new Autotrail is not “lithium ready” as there is not a dc-dc charger installed even though there should be!! (so if you have one of these you should really check if the leisure batteries actually receive a charge when the engine is running as the smart alternator will shut down when the engine battery is fully charged. All the tests we have carried out show that is doesn’t, so when you are driving to your destination the fridge is taking roughly between 10-15a (depending on the size of your fridge) with no way of replenishing that used power). Also the Sargent charging system is not suitable for lithium so both of these need to be replaced. Do you have a solar panel and again, is the regulator lithium compatible?
Then you need to look at the features within the battery you are choosing. Does it have Bluetooth connectivity. If it does then you will be able to see the battery level(s) - brilliant. If it doesn’t you will need to purchase a dedicated battery monitor as the majority of vehicles on the market only read the batteries voltage. Lithiums as you may already know sit naturally higher than the standard lead acid, gel and agm alternatives. Regardless of whether you have 1% or 100% capacity left, the standard monitors will show the battery as fully charged.
“So the above cover new vehicles post 2021!!”
Now we look at the vehicle prior to this and dc-dc chargers were not required as standard so they weren’t installed. The alternators can run up to 14.8v which is too high for a lithium battery as the maximum voltage they can receive is between 14.4-14.6v. If the lithium battery receives the incorrect voltage it can either damage the battery or simply keep switching it off to protect it.
The mains charger may be compatible but it is always recommended to check that is has the correct parameters.
And then we look at older vehicles (20 years old for example). Still worth a pretty penny and someone’s pride and joy. If that customer wants to change to lithium every little bit of the charging system will need to be upgraded as lithium was a twinkle in someone’s eye at that point in time so nothing will be suitable!
So again, no such thing as a drop in replacement as every vehicle is different depending on the converter, the factory fitted equipment/specifications and the age.
Hope this helps.
Ash

With you in this...I did my Lithium conversion in a 17 year old Hymer exactly as you have written....I gained my experience by doing such conversion having spent 3 months research from very knowledgeable people...many on here helped me..no short cutting to save a few Bob....do it right, not just drop in....

 

[Diabalo]

I came across this article Here

I know its specific to Sargent's EC325 PSU but it shows not all motorhomes are the same and we have to tread carefully when making any modifications to the electrical system.

You should not connect any device direct to the battery on the EC325.
The Sargent EC325 unit has a very sophisticated mains charger. If 240v is connected and the battery is low it will 'isolate' the battery from the Motorhome and switch a small 12v power supply into it's place to keep things ticking over.
It will then 'super charge' the battery at up to 18v and 25amps. Anything connected directly to the battery will get hit with these higher volts.
A Battery Master style unit should not be fitted, for obvious reasons.

Because the charger voltage can reach 18v, a Gel or AGM battery should not be used for the habitation battery. Ideally it should be a Silver technology based battery like the Varta LFD90 as these will cope with 18v charge better than most.​

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