Hi Guys, interesting stuff, thanks. Could one of you gentlemen pass on the full settings for the Leoch lead carbon batteries using the victron B2B. I have two 100ah fitted in parallel charged with a Victron 12|12 30Amp B2B. I have them fitted to a 2015 sprinter and in the settings it was automatically set using the setting for AGM batteries, but the settings seem a bit high. Also, the engine recognition seems to think that the engine is not running using the presets given for the AGM batteries. Is there particular settings for the Leoch Lead Carbon Batteries?
Lead Carbon Batteries
- Thread starter RogerIvy
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My previous motorhome was on a 2015 Sprinter chassis. It had a smart alternator. If your B2B is set to voltage recognition it may well not be getting the voltages needed to activate it. Make sure it is set to D+ activation and is wired up appropriately. Voltage recognition devices and smart alternators do not work well together.
Hello Pausim. Thanks for the reply. Yep the wiring is correct double-checked, cant go wrong really on that score It's pretty straight forward.
It is a Victron Orion 12v|12v|30amp B2B this is where I need the setting info, so I can set the voltage recognition so that it will continue to see that the engine is running. You mentioned a setting of D+ I don't remember seeing that on the victron settings. For the time being, I have it set to seeing that the engine is always on. But this bypasses all the victron presets and I hope it does not damage the batteries. It was on for about 1 hour on absorption and settled down to float on 13.5v.
It is a Victron Orion 12v|12v|30amp B2B this is where I need the setting info, so I can set the voltage recognition so that it will continue to see that the engine is running. You mentioned a setting of D+ I don't remember seeing that on the victron settings. For the time being, I have it set to seeing that the engine is always on. But this bypasses all the victron presets and I hope it does not damage the batteries. It was on for about 1 hour on absorption and settled down to float on 13.5v.
I am not familiar with your particular B2B but if it is relying on voltage recognition for engine activation then it is unlikely to work well with a smart alternator. This is because a smart alternator outputs different voltages depending on the condition of the engine battery and the driving conditions. When engine power is needed for driving the alternator output voltage drops to remove the load from the engine, when braking and slowing down the alternator output voltage rises, adding to the engine braking and using the otherwise wasted energy to charge the battery.
Another thing to watch out for is creating an electrical loop between the B2B and the engine battery. If the B2B output is wired direct to the leisure battery but there is an existing leisure battery charging circuit this has the potential for back feeding from the leisure battery (receiving a higher voltage from the B2B) to the engine battery (receiving a lower voltage from the engine). This could cause confusion for the B2B which is effectively feeding itself whilst trying to monitor the leisure battery voltage. It could also confuse the engine ECU, which is trying to monitor engine battery and alternator voltages. There are several earlier motorhomefun threads on this.
Another thing to watch out for is creating an electrical loop between the B2B and the engine battery. If the B2B output is wired direct to the leisure battery but there is an existing leisure battery charging circuit this has the potential for back feeding from the leisure battery (receiving a higher voltage from the B2B) to the engine battery (receiving a lower voltage from the engine). This could cause confusion for the B2B which is effectively feeding itself whilst trying to monitor the leisure battery voltage. It could also confuse the engine ECU, which is trying to monitor engine battery and alternator voltages. There are several earlier motorhomefun threads on this.
Al n Val
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on the way from Peterborough up to Durham so i’ll give you my settings after the match if that’s ok 
Al
Al
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BasherBaz
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Hi Kmak
As you can see on previous posts I run two 150Ah Leoch lead carbon versions of these in parallel on a 2012 VW Crafter with a smart alternator so essentially the same electrical set up as yours with no problems. The manufacturers float setting is 13.62v and the equalization should be 14.1 v.
I see you said you ran it for an hour but not sure if it was just engine running on the drive so I would advice you to drive it around rather than test it stationary as mine quite often does not start charging till its actually driven for about 1-2 mins. (Sorry if you've already tried this but cant tell from your comments.)
I have used a Sterling B2B 30A charger and now a Votronic 60A B2B charger with no problems. Both chargers have the option of running a D+ trigger supply in from your ignition switch/alternator but this should not be necessary as once the alternator kicks in the change in voltage is sufficient to trigger the B2B into working. If you do put a D+ supply wire in then just be careful if you leave the ign switch on for a long time if the leisure batteries depleted as the B2B may well draw power from your starter battery into your leisure batteries even without the engine running and may not leave you enough to start the van.
This doesn't happen without the D+ as the B2B wont wake up until it gets the higher voltage signal.
I have the full technical sheets from Leoch but are having trouble attaching them in PDF so if you PM me maybe I can email you them direct.
Hope this helps
I too am looking favourably at these batteries as my next set of Hab batteries. The performance sheet does look impressive and its a straight swop! Plenty of time yet before I have to decide and by then I hope to read about real life usage from one or more Funsters.Look at the graphs on the product datasheet here - bottom left of the sheet there a depth of discharge - number of cycles curve. The deeper you go the shorter the life. You can actually go to 100% without killing it, though I wouldn't make a habit of it.
12v 100AH Leoch Pure AGM Lead Carbon PLH+ C100 Deep Cycle Leisure Battery NCC Class A - Alpha Batteries
12V 100Ah Ultra Deep Cycle battery for multiple applications – from Leoch’s Pure Lead Carbon series. Features • Pure Lead […]www.alpha-batteries.co.uk
BasherBaz
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Sorted it. Yes this is tech data for the 150Ah but I remember when checking that the float and equalization figures are the same for both size batteries.
The D+ does not come on with the ignition, it only operates when the engine is running and the alternator is active. This is why it is important to use a D+ signal and not one that comes on with the ignition.
A standard alternator will put out something in the region of 13.8V - 14.2V. and is suitable for voltage sensing equipment. A smart alternator may not start charging until the engine battery has dropped to 12.4V and is not suitable for use with voltage sensing equipment.
With respect I believe you are mistaken, the D+ becomes live as soon as the ignition is turned on, it's purpose is to provide power to the alternator coils until the alternator starts turning and can provide this power itself. Below is a simplified diagram which shows how it works in a basic form.
Edit: so any circuit that becomes live when the ignition is switched on that is able to carry the current that it was designed to plus the additional current required for the D+ connection on the B2B will be okay to use, usually this accomplished by using a piggy back fuse however it would be better practise to run a new fused cable from the D+ alternator to the D+ on the B2B if you are able to.
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BasherBaz
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Yes, you are correct regarding the actual D+ wiring from the alternator. My apologies for not being clearer but both the Sterling B2B and Votronic B2B installation instructions give the option of a D+ trigger input but also with the option of taking this feed to the B2B from the ignition rather than the more involved wiring from the actual alternator D+ which is why I warned of the possible starter battery drain.
As for the comment regarding smart alternators not being suitable for voltage sensing equipment, both of the B2B's I have fitted are specifically approved by both manufacturers for smart alternators and both wired as per manufacturers instructions in voltage sensing mode only, picking up the voltage readings from the heavy duty cables connecting the B2B to the vehicle starter battery and have functioned absolutely fine for many years and still is.
My B2B is D+ activated. It does not come on with the ignition. When the engine is running and the battery light goes out the B2B receives the signal and cuts in.
BasherBaz
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Yes, this would be correct as the D+ acts like an earth for the battery light until the alternator starts charging. At which point D+ should have the same voltage as B+ causing the battery light to go out due to a similar potential on both sides of the light. This is the voltage reading received at your B2B to wake up and start working.
I really fail to see how that could possibly be true unless the B2B requires more then 12.8 volts to turn itself on, in which case any circuit that has sufficient capacity that becomes live when the ignition is switched on would experience a similar rise in voltage when the engine starts and would do the job. My own B2B is wired from such a circuit as it was easier then drilling a hole in the bulkhead and running a separate cable to the alternator and it works perfectly. To be fair I didn't check if it was switched on by just the resting voltage when the ignition was turned on and i wont be able to test it until the first week of July but I will check it.
It has nothing to do with voltage levels, think of the D+ as an engine running signal. It is also used to turn the automatic fridge to 12v. If the B2B and fridge both turned on before the engine was running you might not be able start it.
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How does the B2B know to turn on if it is not sensing the voltage at the D+ once D+ is live, if it works as you have described (and I'm not saying it doesn't) it can only be because it requires a higher voltage to turn it on, in other words once the engine is running and putting out more then say 13 volts the B2B turns on, but the point I'm trying to make is that any other circuit of suitable capacity that becomes live when the ignition is turned on will do just as well because it to will experience the same increase in voltage once the engine is running. You make a good point about a load being put on the starter battery before the engine starts so I presume the B2B must require that higher voltage to open. I promise I will check mine in July and get back to this post.
My post started off a little misleading because I originally missed out the word “levels” after the word “voltage”. I did correct this but by then you were already answering my unedited post. Sorry for the confusion.How does the B2B know to turn on if it is not sensing the voltage at the D+ once D+ is live, if it works as you have described (and I'm not saying it doesn't) it can only be because it requires a higher voltage to turn it on, in other words once the engine is running and putting out more then say 13 volts the B2B turns on, but the point I'm trying to make is that any other circuit of suitable capacity that becomes live when the ignition is turned on will do just as well because it to will experience the same increase in voltage once the engine is running. You make a good point about a load being put on the starter battery before the engine starts so I presume the B2B must require that higher voltage to open. I promise I will check mine in July and get back to this post.
I am not sure of the technical details of the origin of the D+ signal but I think it has something to do with activity in the coils of the alternator. Using a fixed voltage point is now very difficult because smart alternators can output anything between 12.3V and 15V. This is controlled by the ECU which may be deliberately leaving the engine battery at 12.3V, so that there is room for it to take a hefty charge when the vehicle is slowing down. A big alternator may put a load of more than 5hp on the engine so you don’t want it working hard when it is not needed. The B2B imposes a significant load on the engine battery and the ECU will sense the voltage drop and adjust the alternator output to take care of this. If the B2B reacted to voltage variations it could be turning off and on all the time. The D+ signal takes care of this by switching the B2B on continuously whilst the engine/alternator are running, regardless of the voltage output.
This is how I understand the workings but I am not an electrical engineer.
Al n Val
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here you go mateon the way from Peterborough up to Durham so i’ll give you my settings after the match if that’s ok
Al
Clive Mott
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Agreed Go LiFeP04. I replaced three 95ah agm with one 150ah lithium with 150A BMS and saved 62kg. Same useable energy.
I find it very interesting when the subject of batteries come up.... this thread for example when stating not to buy Chinese batteries but went for Leoch.. you would be very surprised to discover just where the majority of many brands of batteries originate from..... i bought some very highly rated and expensive American "Fullriver" batteries a few years back from a major British electronics firm.... and after researching....where were they built...... yep China..
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My American Relion battery was built in China. Good chance that many of the computers/tablets/phones used to add to this debate were made in China too. However I would suggest that buying unknown brands from China might be a mistake. Stick to brands that are properly established in, and distributed from, the UK.
funflair
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The D+ is indeed fed from the ignition but has a "floating" voltage, as has been mentioned it energises the coils of the alternator which are grounded to chassis -ve so the red ignition light is on but there is no D+ signal as the voltage is too low with a path to -ve through the alternator, when the engine starts the alternator takes over generating its own current for the field coils and the voltage rises above battery volts so the ignition light goes out as there is no path to -ve, with this increased voltage the signal know as D+ is then available.
BasherBaz
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There doesn't seem to be much that's not connected to China now, large companies or not. I was looking for a digital temperature controller for the heated mats i'd fitted on my fresh water tank and as I was having to cut a fair size hole in the garage bulkhead to install it wanted something that would last as long as the van. I couldn't find any models other than made in China. Having said that it cost £6 and once I'd worked out how to change the default cooling setting to heating in Chinese its worked fine.
They all claim 'UK stock' but once you look as the registered company details its usually China.
Even Fluke multi-meter components are sourced from China these days.
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